SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Bletchleyite]

23m carriages do help in that respect.

Yes, true, I think the forthcoming 2+2 seated LNR Aventras will have an IC like feel despite the door positions.

 

[swt_passenger]

23m carriages do help in that respect.

The flip side is that as 23m vehicles the 444s are just a bit narrower than the 350 or 450 though. It’s a couple of inches slimmer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The flip side is that as 23m vehicles the 444s are just a bit narrower than the 350 or 450 though. It’s a couple of inches slimmer.

Desiros are generally quite narrow and slab-sided. 444s and 185s are 2.68m wide, which is the narrowest UK passenger rolling stock, even the Civity (195 etc) is slightly wider. 350s and 450s are 2.80m, which is narrower than the normal 2.82m of most 20m stock.

 

[Mikey C]

Desiros are generally quite narrow and slab-sided. 444s and 185s are 2.68m wide, which is the narrowest UK passenger rolling stock, even the Civity (195 etc) is slightly wider. 350s and 450s are 2.80m, which is narrower than the normal 2.82m of most 20m stock.

I imagine the shoulder width of the 350s/450s compares favourable with the Electrostars though, due to the straight sides

 

[Wolfie]

As a Portsmouth direct user (I live in Havant and before that Petersfield) the direct isn’t and never was Intercity. Yes we had 442s and 444s but also had CEPs and VEPs and now 450s on the same route. The biggest issue with the 450s was and is the 3+2 seating not the door position. 458s will solve that and the majority of users will be content.

That all strikes me as an eminently sensible position.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Anyone got any news about when the 458s will start heading north for their all important refurbishment?
Earlier in this thread it was noted that the first ones had gone off lease ready for the long journey to Widnes

Well they are currently still recruiting for a project manager, with a closing date of 5th November. But the job advert also says "Following the introduction of the class 701 fleet, the class 458 fleet will be re-purposed to become a 100mph, 4-car mainline unit to provide additional capacity". At the rate the 701 introduction seems to be going, it could be some time before the 458s see their refurbishment(!) So maybe the 458 project is still in the very early stages of development, hence only recruiting for a Project Manager now?

First UK Careers

First UK Careers, uk, careers, jobs, bus driver, train driver, engineer

www.firstgroupcareers.com

458 Project Manager​

South Western Railway is committed to equal opportunities employment, and your application will be reviewed by the hiring panel with personal information removed. In order to assist this process please ensure that any attachments such as CV's or covering letter have personal details removed. Any other attachments such as professional qualifications can be left unedited. Applications not following this guidance may be rejected.
Main Purpose
Following the introduction of the class 701 fleet, the class 458 fleet will be re-purposed to become a 100mph, 4-car mainline unit to provide additional capacity. The project is a collaboration between SWR, Alstom and Porterbrook to convert the units back to 4-car, 100mph operation as well as refurbishing to provide a mainline standard train. The Project Manager will be responsible for delivering the project on time and on budget. This will be achieved through early capture of all requirements, collaboration with and management of the relationships with the suppliers and tracking and closure of all technical and non-technical issues.
Principal Accountabilities

• Manage all aspects of design, procurement, implementation and close–out in accordance with the agreed programme as required.
• Lead Design Confirmation Process to ensure that new trains comply with the specification and that the design is accepted by all relevant departments.
• Provide support and direction to technical & design teams to ensure effective project delivery.
• Lead the development and delivery of project deliverables in compliance with company policies, processes and procedures.
• Manage the production and review of project management plans.
• Manage programme of relevant inspections.
• Establish and support collaborative cross–functional teams for project delivery where necessary, especially with depot representatives.
• Manage project budgets within agreed targets.
• Promote and monitor the use of efficiency improvement methods, and disseminate lessons learned
• Deliver regular progress reports on the project, including relevant risks and issues to Senior Project Managers and Directors
• Engage and coordinate stakeholders of the project
• Maintaining the SWR project methodology in all activities undertaken
• Identify opportunities within projects and sharing of best practice across functional project teams

Minimum Requirements

• Rolling stock project management
• Membership of a relevant professional body desirable
• Good understanding of engineering issues
• Project management qualification
• Strong commercial focus and financially astute.
• Must have the ability to work independently and as part of a team and successfully adapt to changing priorities and non-core responsibilities.
• Experience of working within cross functional projects is desirable
• Strong technical background with specific knowledge of rolling stock. Educated to degree level or suitable alternative.
• Strong supplier management skills, comfortable working at a detailed level and with a confident and authoritative manner to resist pressure to accept something no in line with the contract.
• Strong administration, planning & organisation skills, and experience of working in cross-functional or business environment.
• Post holder must be prepared to travel as the refurbishment work is being undertaken near Liverpool
• Aptitude for understanding contracts so that they are aware of the responsibilities that SWR has as the Operator.
• Ability to communicate clearly both verbally in meetings and through emails – specifically knowing when an issue needs to be set out in an official contractual email and how to respond to emails from the Supplier.

Working Pattern
Working on average 37 hours per week.
Office hours including weekends as per business needs.
Please note this role is based at Bournemouth & Wimbledon Train Care Depot.
At SWR we believe our people are our greatest asset.
Our vision is to recruit and retain the best talent from most diverse pool of candidates across our regions.
We are committed to establishing a sense of inclusion for all and to value each person for the unique contribution they bring.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wonder if the front ends of the 458s will be "repurposed" to resemble Aventras...

 

[TEW]

Yep, there are also a lot more station in general on the Portsmouth route hence a common fast and stopping service fleet point to not using end doors.

The SWR 442 trials to Portmouth showed that dwell times were an issue with end doors pre Covid.

The 442 dwell times were an issue, but 444 dwell times are not a huge issue, and they see a fair amount of use on stopping services. That's not to say I think end doors are necessary.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Isn't the point that it will be an upgrade over the 450s, though?


No they weren't. At least not as a passenger.

You forgot about the uproar then when 442's were withdrawn from the Pompey road and 444's went down there?

There were petitions to reinstate as far as I remember.

Now it seems that 444's are an upgrade over 450's.

 

[nlogax]

You forgot about the uproar then when 442's were withdrawn from the Pompey road and 444's went down there?

There were petitions to reinstate as far as I remember.

I thought the petitions related to wanting removal of 'the blue trains', ie 450s.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I thought the petitions related to wanting removal of 'the blue trains', ie 450s.

You're probably right. Sorry.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Desiros are generally quite narrow and slab-sided. 444s and 185s are 2.68m wide, which is the narrowest UK passenger rolling stock, even the Civity (195 etc) is slightly wider. 350s and 450s are 2.80m, which is narrower than the normal 2.82m of most 20m stock.

I don’t think 2cm makes a lot of difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think 2cm makes a lot of difference.

It doesn't massively, but 2.68m (185/444) does feel very narrow compared with say 2.73m (156), the 185/444 do feel very narrow. And 2.68 (444) vs. 2.80 (450) is 12cm, which does make a big difference particularly with regard to 3+2 seating.

80x are 2.70, that said, and don't seem to feel as narrow.

 

[Nogoohwell]

Well they are currently still recruiting for a project manager, with a closing date of 5th November. But the job advert also says "Following the introduction of the class 701 fleet, the class 458 fleet will be re-purposed to become a 100mph, 4-car mainline unit to provide additional capacity". At the rate the 701 introduction seems to be going, it could be some time before the 458s see their refurbishment(!) So maybe the 458 project is still in the very early stages of development, hence only recruiting for a Project Manager now?

First UK Careers

First UK Careers, uk, careers, jobs, bus driver, train driver, engineer

www.firstgroupcareers.com

Still can't quite believe the 458's are being kept.
The business case for the 701's was a single fleet, remove several small fleets and benefit from having less things for maintenance and staff to train on. So why keep a handful of 458's? Is it because they wanted to preserve the jobs that would have been lost from the 442 refurb and stabling?
With all the cost of refurb and for the sake of the above issues, would it not have been better to order a small fleet of Aventras with an IC interior?

The 350/2 would make much more sense, although SWR would probably have to take the entire fleet and convert to DC, which sounds like a great idea as the surplus 350/2's could supplement the 450 fleet.

Of course, SWR probably got a cracking deal on the 458's as the owner would have had a gun to their head, scrap or rock bottom lease.

 

[swt_passenger]

Still can't quite believe the 458's are being kept.
The business case for the 701's was a single fleet, remove several small fleets and benefit from having less things for maintenance and staff to train on. So why keep a handful of 458's? Is it because they wanted to preserve the jobs that would have been lost from the 442 refurb and stabling?
With all the cost of refurb and for the sake of the above issues, would it not have been better to order a small fleet of Aventras with an IC interior?

The 350/2 would make much more sense, although SWR would probably have to take the entire fleet and convert to DC, which sounds like a great idea as the surplus 350/2's could supplement the 450 fleet.

Of course, SWR probably got a cracking deal on the 458's as the owner would have had a gun to their head, scrap or rock bottom lease.

The 701s will still provide the single fleet benefits you mention in the wider inner suburban area, including Reading, because the 458s will be gone, Bournemouth based. So yes, the 458s preserve the jobs and related small sub fleet maintenance problems that the 442s would have caused, given their was no longer any intrinsic familiarity with retractioned 442s anyway.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I did read that 28 were being kept… Not sure how true that was.

They are quite a good train, but the computer is a bit wonky at times and the P.I.S system can be a nightmare especially when looking for new codes…(and it going out of station sequence)
In the old days if you had a P.I.S code for a trip like 1130… Just reverse the number, and you had the return code number. Doesn't work like that now.

 

[43096]

I did read that 28 were being kept… Not sure how true that was.

It’s correct. It’s also been reported that 458501-528 are the units being retained with 458529-536 dropping out.

 

[swt_passenger]

I did read that 28 were being kept… Not sure how true that was.

It’s been a consistent 28 for a while, and is presumably based on 9 x 12 car being broadly equivalent to 9 x 10 car 442s. With a single spare? Would have to search to find where 28 was first officially mentioned. Seems I posted it first copied from a chap quoting Railway Gazette on or about 1 April this year…

 

[Wolfie]

Still can't quite believe the 458's are being kept.
The business case for the 701's was a single fleet, remove several small fleets and benefit from having less things for maintenance and staff to train on. So why keep a handful of 458's? Is it because they wanted to preserve the jobs that would have been lost from the 442 refurb and stabling?
With all the cost of refurb and for the sake of the above issues, would it not have been better to order a small fleet of Aventras with an IC interior?

The 350/2 would make much more sense, although SWR would probably have to take the entire fleet and convert to DC, which sounds like a great idea as the surplus 350/2's could supplement the 450 fleet.

Of course, SWR probably got a cracking deal on the 458's as the owner would have had a gun to their head, scrap or rock bottom lease.

Order some more Aventuras.... As their introduction has gone swimmingly... Oh, wait....

SWR have basically swapped one micro fleet (the 442s) for another (the 458s).

Re your last para agreed. The fact that the ROSCO was prepared for another major rebuild within about 5/6 years tells its own story.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s been a consistent 28 for a while, and is presumably based on 9 x 12 car being broadly equivalent to 9 x 10 car 442s. With a single spare? Would have to search to find where 28 was first officially mentioned though…

A single spare seems a bit risky... all you need is one to hit a tree and you've got a shortage for weeks. It's not as if the rest of the class are needed elsewhere, so surely it would make more sense to have all 30 of the non-460 sets? Capping the fleet at 28 seems like needless DfT penny-pinching.

 

[swt_passenger]

A single spare seems a bit risky... all you need is one to hit a tree and you've got a shortage for weeks. It's not as if the rest of the class are needed elsewhere, so surely it would make more sense to have all 30 of the non-460 sets? Capping the fleet at 28 seems like needless DfT penny-pinching.

It’s not really a single spare, what I really meant is that its more than you need to match the intended 442 fleet, that was to be 9 x 10 cars but only maybe 7 or 8 sets normally diagrammed. So if these run as triples it would perhaps be 21 or 24 in normal day to day use.

 

[43096]

A single spare seems a bit risky... all you need is one to hit a tree and you've got a shortage for weeks. It's not as if the rest of the class are needed elsewhere, so surely it would make more sense to have all 30 of the non-460 sets? Capping the fleet at 28 seems like needless DfT penny-pinching.

It’s not a single spare: they weren’t going to run 100% with the 442s. It’ll be more like 8 x 12-car max: so 24 sets from 28.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s not really a single spare, what I really meant is that its more than you need to match the intended 442 fleet, that was to be 9 x 10 cars but only maybe 7 or 8 sets normally diagrammed. So if these run as triples it would perhaps be 21 or 24 in normal day to day use.

Thanks. Was thinking it had echoes of the old "one new sprinter car for every two mk1s/mk2s withdrawn" that the Provincial sector was crippled with back in the the 1980s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Frankly they can take what they get. They will have less leverage when GBR comes into being. Portsmouth to London has never been true InterCity.

It doesn’t quite work like that - you can’t force people to start travelling again and currently the rolling stock is putting people off returning to the train, longer distance commuting on the Portsmouth Direct is one of the slower for demand to return.

It’s not just the 2+3 seating, it’s the lack of tables - commuters expect to be able to use the 90 minutes each way on the train productively with a laptop, not very easy with a 450.

Whilst I appreciate your point that people can’t demand certain types of train there is also the flip side you don’t provide a type of train that satisfies users needs they won’t travel (and we need them to do so for the railway to be viable) so it’s a fine balance.

It’s not really a single spare, what I really meant is that its more than you need to match the intended 442 fleet, that was to be 9 x 10 cars but only maybe 7 or 8 sets normally diagrammed. So if these run as triples it would perhaps be 21 or 24 in normal day to day use.

I believe it’ll be 24 from 28 diagrammed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe it’ll be 24 from 28 diagrammed.

Thanks. But presumably though, the number they’ve decided to retain was based on a view that at some stage in the future everything will be back to full length again?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn’t quite work like that - you can’t force people to start travelling again and currently the rolling stock is putting people off returning to the train, longer distance commuting on the Portsmouth Direct is one of the slower for demand to return.

It’s not just the 2+3 seating, it’s the lack of tables - commuters expect to be able to use the 90 minutes each way on the train productively with a laptop, not very easy with a 450.

No, it's not either of those things, it's because long distance commuting is itself slow to return because it is typically people on higher incomes in more clerical and IT type jobs which can be done partly or wholly from home.

Personally I find it much easier to use a laptop on my knee and have never found a seat back table on which it was comfortable to use it. Full tables yes, but 444s don't have lots of those.

I do agree 3+2 needs to have had its day, and I certainly prefer a 350/1 to a /2, but I think the importance of this is being massively overblown.

 

[Juniper Driver]

It’s been a consistent 28 for a while, and is presumably based on 9 x 12 car being broadly equivalent to 9 x 10 car 442s. With a single spare? Would have to search to find where 28 was first officially mentioned. Seems I posted it first copied from a chap quoting Railway Gazette on or about 1 April this year…

I found it somewhere else this morning when Trying to find out about the 442's… I do like the idea with the 350's, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s been a consistent 28 for a while, and is presumably based on 9 x 12 car being broadly equivalent to 9 x 10 car 442s. With a single spare? Would have to search to find where 28 was first officially mentioned. Seems I posted it first copied from a chap quoting Railway Gazette on or about 1 April this year…

You probably don't need much in the way of spares if there is enough capacity in the 450 fleet for occasional substitutions.

 

[swt_passenger]

You probably don't need much in the way of spares if there is enough capacity in the 450 fleet for occasional substitutions.

True enough. It’ll all go pear shaped anytime there’s disruption anyway.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Given the proposed decimated SWR 2022 service they won't need all this stock they should just stick with the Siemens and Bombardier equipment. Commuters aren't coming back and those that do won't all be travelling in the peak anymore which is no bad thing. If im wrong then there will soon be some surplus 350's ex WM so stick some shoegear on them and SWR can have them with a refurb for use on the Pompey direct.