SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Goldfish62]

I thought I read at the time that the cabs had been completely rebuilt, as the new gangways required structural changes. Certainly the ex-class 460 ones were rebuilt, as a gangway had to be installed and the drivers desk modified to accomodate it.

Well, being pedantic 6 units have cabs dating from 9-10 years ago, but as pointed out previously on this thread the cabs on the original 30 units are untouched since the day the units were built. In any case those 6 units are not being converted to 458/4s.

You don't need to reconfigure the drivers cab to fit a replacement gangway! Indeed, if you walk between 2 units you'll see that apart from the new gangway everything is unchanged.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In any case those 6 units are not being converted to 458/4s.

Oh yes! I forgot that.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's to do with the cabs having a very old TPWS system on board which does need replacing.

Surely that's a separate issue from refurbishment, and if the system is unsuitable for the 458/4s is it not also unsuitable for the 458/5s? So why are the latter still in service? Genuine question.

 

[swr444]

Surely that's a separate issue from refurbishment, and if the system is unsuitable for the 458/4s is it not also unsuitable for the 458/5s? So why are the latter still in service? Genuine question.

Because a refurbishment is the time for updating anything necessary and this wasn’t done

 

[Goldfish62]

Because a refurbishment is the time for updating anything necessary and this wasn’t done

Sorry, I still don't get it. Surely safety equipment updating shouldn't, indeed mustn't, wait for cosmetic refurbishment. They're completely separate things.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Because a refurbishment is the time for updating anything necessary and this wasn’t done

Is it necessary though? Seeing as the 458/5s continue to run without issue.

 

[swr444]

Is it necessary though? Seeing as the 458/5s continue to run without issue.

okay

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Stop converting them from usable five cars to useless four cars.

That’s not SWR’s choice. Porterbrook (the fleet’s owner) have made it quite clear the contract for the refurbishment is not negotiable and units have to be released as per agreed schedule.

 

[43096]

That’s not SWR’s choice. Porterbrook (the fleet’s owner) have made it quite clear the contract for the refurbishment is not negotiable and units have to be released as per agreed schedule.

It is likely more complex than that. I would think it likely there are penalty clauses in the contract between Alstom and Porterbrook for late delivery of units into the programme. Porterbrook have probably asked SWR if they are prepared to pay to pause the programme and SWR have said no.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It is likely more complex than that.

There is often more to these things than many realise, as you say. With the original (rot) delays that hindered the timely introduction of the initial 458/5, the situation was only turned around with an injection of extra bodies at Doncaster, which will have cost, one way or other, outside and additional to the original contract.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Porterbrook have probably asked SWR if they are prepared to pay to pause the programme and SWR have said no.

What is more likely is SWR have asked the DfT what they would like to be done. I don’t believe the current management contracts give that level of delegated spend authority to the contract holder.

 

[Goldfish62]

What is more likely is SWR have asked the DfT what they would like to be done. I don’t believe the current management contracts give that level of delegated spend authority to the contract holder.

I agree and we know from other TOCs being forced to go short of rolling stock that the DfT doesn't care about such things.

 

[Benno]

458521 is the next unit to go to Widnes for conversion. Due to move from Wimbledon to Bournemouth on Friday 8th March and then move to Widnes on Tuesday 12th March.

 

[Siemens Staines]

458521 is the next unit to go to Widnes for conversion. Due to move from Wimbledon to Bournemouth on Friday 8th March and then move to Widnes on Tuesday 12th March.

Thank you for this information. I notice that 458521 should end the day today at Farnham off 2223 Waterloo - Alton so possibly it will end at Wimbledon Park tomorrow off one of Farnham - Waterloo via Camberley diagrams. But, it is currently running as 5 vice 10, so it is possible it will get swapped out earlier than it is currently allocated today.

 

[Bikeman78]

That’s not SWR’s choice. Porterbrook (the fleet’s owner) have made it quite clear the contract for the refurbishment is not negotiable and units have to be released as per agreed schedule.

At this rate all the 458s will be gone before the 701s take over any diagrams. Why was the conversion even signed off in the current regime of cutbacks? Where were all the displaced 450s meant to go? Something doesn't add up.

 

[Peter Sarf]

At this rate all the 458s will be gone before the 701s take over any diagrams. Why was the conversion even signed off in the current regime of cutbacks? Where were all the displaced 450s meant to go? Something doesn't add up.

I think this was all planned before Covid came along. And of course all the 701s were expected to (all ?) be in service around the time the Class 458 conversion to longer distance 4car units was planned to have started.

EDIT/correction
I was forgetting that the 442s were originally meant to fulfill the Portsmouth direct requirement before Covid-19. The (rushed ?) desire to convert the 458s to fill the gap came after the 442 conversion was given up on. This was after Covid had affected things but before March 2021.

 

[spark001uk]

Surely if the 701s don't soon start entering service they'll need the 458/4s to displace 450s to replace all the missing 458/5s?
Understand it's not that simple to get everything in place, but it'll surely start looking like an option?

 

[Bikeman78]

I think this was all planned before Covid came along. And of course all the 701s were expected to (all ?) be in service around the time the Class 458 conversion to longer distance 4car units was planned to have started.

Until Covid the 442s were expected to run on the Portsmouth line. I can't recall exactly when the project was cancelled but it was definitely after March 2020.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think this was all planned before Covid came along. And of course all the 701s were expected to (all ?) be in service around the time the Class 458 conversion to longer distance 4car units was planned to have started.

The plan for the 458s before Covid was that all 36 were going offlease, probably for scrapping. Binning the 442s and modifying the 458s instead came somewhat later, this thread started as a result of that sudden decision 31 Mar 2021.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Until Covid the 442s were expected to run on the Portsmouth line. I can't recall exactly when the project was cancelled but it was definitely after March 2020.

+

The plan for the 458s before Covid was that all 36 were going offlease, probably for scrapping. Binning the 442s and modifying the 458s instead came somewhat later, this thread started as a result of that sudden decision 31 Mar 2021.

Gosh I had forgotten about that last throw of the dice for my beloved 442s .

So then a rushed request from SWR asking Porterbrook to promise to quickly convert the 458s !.

 

[Bikeman78]

+

Gosh I had forgotten about that last throw of the dice for my beloved 442s .

So then a rushed request from SWR asking Porterbrook to promise to quickly convert the 458s !.

I still don't get it. By March 2021 it was obvious that commuter numbers would not recover for years. So the 458s would not be needed once replaced by 701s on metro routes.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I still don't get it. By March 2021 it was obvious that commuter numbers would not recover for years. So the 458s would not be needed once replaced by 701s on metro routes.

I wonder how long before March 2021 the plans for 458s were lined up. I suspect the 442 option would never have been cancelled until AFTER it was definite Porterbrook could go ahead and agreements made.

But you are right to wonder how much forethought was required. I suspect it was a headlong rush to cover their backsides whilst giving up on the 442s.

 

[janahan]

Out of curiosity, how difficult/worthwhile would it be to add AC overhead equipment to the 458s that were originally 458/0? I know those had and still have the pantograph wells, and are similar to the ScotRail Junipers which are already AC. I am fully aware the ex GatEx 460s did not have pantograph wells, and most likely will be scrapped.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

IIRC the 458/0s had pantograph wells and controls in the cab to raise and lower the pantograph, but nothing else. The cab controls were removed during the 458/5 conversion work, as part of modifications to make the ex-458/0 and ex-460 cabs as far as possible identical.

 

[janahan]

IIRC the 458/0s had pantograph wells and controls in the cab to raise and lower the pantograph, but nothing else. The cab controls were removed during the 458/5 conversion work, as part of modifications to make the ex-458/0 and ex-460 cabs as far as possible identical.

Thanks for that.

I was afraid this was the case when they did the conversion. Its a bit of a shame in a way as that COULD have improved their usage. I am fully aware that even in the 458/0 guise they were less "ready" than the 450s to convert to AC (requireing the addition/changing of many parts). But if its the case the controls were also removed, then its fair to say it would require far too much work, and potentially risky for such an older set that didnt exactly bask in glory when first introduced (even the Scotrail AC verions had their own issues).

Having rode them as a passenger regularly between feltham to london, I was always a little fond of the original 458/0s with its comfy seat, etc, I was probably havign a rose tinted wibble!

 

[D365]

It's to do with the cabs having a very old TPWS system on board which does need replacing.

Really? Are drivers that keen to be 'upgraded' to Enhanced TPWS?

But if its the case the controls were also removed, then its fair to say it would require far too much work, and potentially risky for such an older set that didnt exactly bask in glory when first introduced (even the Scotrail AC verions had their own issues).

'Controls' are the least of the problems - I'd hazard that your second comment is more accurate.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Paths are on RTT for the next 458/4 delivery from Widnes to Wembley today which I guess will be 458415. The return from Bournemouth tomorrow evening only runs as far as Eastleigh Yard with no onward path shown at present. Conceivably this path may be for the locos and barrier vehicles only, rather than with 458521 as originally planned. Of course, it could be locos plus 458521 laying over at Eastleigh and that the onward path has not been confirmed yet, but the 5Zxx instead of 5Xxx or 5Qxx would seem to suggest no 458 in the consist? I could be wrong though!

Tuesday 12th March 2024
5Q62 1243 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

Realtime Trains | 5Q62 1243 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 | 12/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q62 1243 departure from Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7 on 12/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Wednesday 13th March 2024
5X64 1011 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Down Loop

Realtime Trains | 5X64 1011 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Down Loop | 13/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5X64 1011 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Southampton Down Loop on 13/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q64 1430 Southampton Down Loop to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5Q64 1430 Southampton Down Loop to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D | 13/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Q64 1430 departure from Southampton Down Loop to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D on 13/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Z66 1937 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard

Realtime Trains | 5Z66 1937 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard | 13/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5Z66 1937 departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Eastleigh East Yard on 13/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[The_Train]

5Q62 is on the move - any confirmation of it being 8515 please?

 

[43OO4]

It is indeed now 8415. Just saw it at CRE.

 

[The_Train]

It is indeed now 8415. Just saw it at CRE.

A good point on the number. Thanks for confirming your sighting