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SWR taking the Mickey on train lengths

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RPI

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I don't want to jinx it, but the past few weeks have actually seen improvements in train lengths at the West of the West of England line, 1L09 (09:16 off Honiton towards Exeter) was always a 3 car and gets pretty busy, but since December has been solid 6 car, in fact, very few 3 car formations West of Yeovil now. There. I've said it. That's it jinxed now.
 
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Bikeman78

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'Couldn't be bothered' = couldn't afford

Some of it comes back to 701s not being in service yet, when clearly there was an expectation they would be.
I wonder how the leasing costs of the 701s compare with the older fleets? Is there any sign of them starting in service yet? Binning off the older trains before the new have started was always going to end badly. To be clear, I don't mean the 442s, but several 455s, 458s and 707s have gone, not to mention all the 456s.

I don't want to jinx it, but the past few weeks have actually seen improvements in train lengths at the West of the West of England line, 1L09 (09:16 off Honiton towards Exeter) was always a 3 car and gets pretty busy, but since December has been solid 6 car, in fact, very few 3 car formations West of Yeovil now. There. I've said it. That's it jinxed now.
I don't think any DMUs have gone elsewhere. They lost one at Salisbury but that should not prevent most of the 2019 service being restored if required.
 

infobleep

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It is also well known that the subsidy to the railway continues to be at unprecedented levels and the Treasury wants it to get back to more sustainable levels.


I agree with you but the Treasury will be the same, and there are many other places money needs to be allocated.


'Couldn't be bothered' = couldn't afford

Some of it comes back to 701s not being in service yet, when clearly there was an expectation they would be.
I wonder are the 701s costing a lot of money whilst they are not in service?

Also is the guard declassifying first class on these over crowded services because my experience in the past has been that guards will only do this for short formed services and not services that are over crowded but of the correct length. My evidence was the former 18:46 Clapham Junction to Poole service that use to be 5 carriages in length.

Given the issues, it is surprising, although personally welcomed, that later trains from Waterloo to Guildford were added to the timetable last December.
 

RPI

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I wonder how the leasing costs of the 701s compare with the older fleets? Is there any sign of them starting in service yet? Binning off the older trains before the new have started was always going to end badly. To be clear, I don't mean the 442s, but several 455s, 458s and 707s have gone, not to mention all the 456s.


I don't think any DMUs have gone elsewhere. They lost one at Salisbury but that should not prevent most of the 2019 service being restored if required.
I know that, but there are actually more 6 cars now than 2019 on weekdays.
 

Deepgreen

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Yes, but if it means reducing peak formations to provide longer trains around 2000 because passengers are travelling later, that isn't easy to guess.
No guessing required - post a couple of people at Waterloo to observe trains' loadings for a couple of weeks to ascertain the trends and react accordingly.

It is also well known that the subsidy to the railway continues to be at unprecedented levels and the Treasury wants it to get back to more sustainable levels.
That must be a reflection of the sleek and efficient railway that the Tories touted when they stupidly privatised it - purportedly to reduce the burden on the public purse! It was always either a lie or a scandalously naive assumption.
 
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yorksrob

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Maybe but I it's interesting how BR, specifically the South Western Division out of Waterloo, in the days of Thatcher, managed to run longish trains beyond the peak back in the harsh recession of the early 1980s (I have CWNs for 1981 and 1982, for example, which show this). Around 8pm, 8- or 12-car seemed to be the standard on the Portsmouth Direct, for example, and the Bournemouth and Weymouth services were 12-car. Presumably there were significant financial constraints then, too.

There was off-peak shortening in the 80s of course, but that was during the quiet time of day between around 1100-1500, in the main, or very early morning or late evening. (And I do agree that shortening is entirely appropriate when many of the trains are basically just carting fresh air!)

Of course BR didn't have to lease its CIG's and VEP's.
 

Craig1122

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It is also well known that the subsidy to the railway continues to be at unprecedented levels and the Treasury wants it to get back to more sustainable levels.


I agree with you but the Treasury will be the same, and there are many other places money needs to be allocated.


'Couldn't be bothered' = couldn't afford

Some of it comes back to 701s not being in service yet, when clearly there was an expectation they would be.

Pre covid passenger numbers had doubled since privatisation so 80% still represents a lot more people travelling. At the same time off peak fares on the South Western have increased substantially above inflation and the Network Card discount for shorter journeys has been withdrawn.

Given that Network South East had no government support by 96 I don't think it's unreasonable to ask where all the money is going!
 

Dr Hoo

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Network SouthEast had real term price hikes every year both to keep the lid on numbers and narrow the ‘subsidy gap’.
 

DelW

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There were presumably fewer trains in each hour back then. As I note above, I am not sure this issue is about short trains as such as the services being discussed where short in the pre-Covid days, but more about the long gap from 1920 to 2005 not being compensated by changes to formations of the following services.
Not as far back as the "days of Thatcher", but on the Direct at least, there were more trains in late BR days than now.

The pre-privatisation September 1995 off-peak weekday timetable to Portsmouth via the Direct had 3tph, leaving Waterloo at xx.00 (semifast), xx.20 (stopper) and xx.40 (fast).

By 1997 (early Stagecoach era), those were supplemented by a xx.24 Haslemere terminator (overtaken at Guildford by the xx.40), which had previously been a Guildford to Haslemere shuttle.

The current version has been cut to 2tph to Portsmouth, xx.00 stopper and xx.30 semifast, plus a Haslemere terminator at xx.45.

It's very hard to discern any improvement there.
 

nw1

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Not as far back as the "days of Thatcher", but on the Direct at least, there were more trains in late BR days than now.

The pre-privatisation September 1995 off-peak weekday timetable to Portsmouth via the Direct had 3tph, leaving Waterloo at xx.00 (semifast), xx.20 (stopper) and xx.40 (fast).

By 1997 (early Stagecoach era), those were supplemented by a xx.24 Haslemere terminator (overtaken at Guildford by the xx.40), which had previously been a Guildford to Haslemere shuttle.

The current version has been cut to 2tph to Portsmouth, xx.00 stopper and xx.30 semifast, plus a Haslemere terminator at xx.45.

It's very hard to discern any improvement there.
Indeed, 2tph to Portsmouth is, in one sense, almost a record low in post-electrification history, but in the 80s when there were 3tph, one of the trains was overtaken at Guildford, so one could probably say that the current timetable, off-peak, is equivalent to the 80s.

FWIW in 1982 we had on the Direct around that time:

1920 semi-fast : 8Vep
1922 slow overtaken : 8Cig
1950 fast 12CBCig
2020 semi-fast: 4Cig/4Vep
2050 fast 12CBCig

4-cars were present on the 2120 with 4Vep.
 
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fandroid

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There were presumably fewer trains in each hour back then. As I note above, I am not sure this issue is about short trains as such as the services being discussed where short in the pre-Covid days, but more about the long gap from 1920 to 2005 not being compensated by changes to formations of the following services.
I've travelled back in the evenings from Waterloo for years. Trains Pre-Covid nearly always consisted of two units at least. And there were more services per hour. I can understand that there might be shortages overall of 450s, but not of 444s. There must be some 158/159s to spare as well because fewer Salisbury trains now get nearer to London than Basingstoke.

Perhaps someone in the know can explain why services that ran with 10 or 12 coaches in the evening peak need to be shortened for the late evening (that process in itself must require a fair amount of work, including putting them back together for the next morning peak).
 
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Craig1122

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I seem to recall that lease charges for the Desiros are partly mileage dependant so there's a big financial incentive to minimise mileage. This is the reason that for several years SWT ran them as 4 car at weekends on the Windsor lines despite crush loading that could be worse than weekday peaks.

It's a demonstration of the crazy financing model around leasing. In the days of owned stock the accepted model in the South East was that the expensive fixed asset had already been paid for and you should therefore maximise it earning revenue outside the peak, hence the network card, cheap day return and various promotions.
 

Horizon22

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Until it is back to normal on Monday and Friday, the revenue won't be there to support better services on Tuesday to Thursday.

Services at 2000 are often the first ones that run with shorter formations, because the train fleet is concentrated on the peak flows. Second guessing passenger flows is a bit of a challenge.

Hasn't the 2009 to Portsmouth via Basingstoke always been a 4 car 450?

It's interesting though because "peak flows" aren't quite what they used to be. There's a lot more nuance in terms of passenger numbers and timings and its less black and white (hard AM and PM commuter peaks, M-F) than it used to be and I think most TOCs are either a) slow to realise this or b) have realised but are struggling to work out the most effective method to cater for this varying demand.
 

DelW

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It's interesting though because "peak flows" aren't quite what they used to be. There's a lot more nuance in terms of passenger numbers and timings and its less black and white (hard AM and PM commuter peaks, M-F) than it used to be and I think most TOCs are either a) slow to realise this or b) have realised but are struggling to work out the most effective method to cater for this varying demand.
How about c), they can't change anything because they're forbidden to by DfT, who are controlled by self-serving politicians who realise that their government is doomed at the next election, and are desperately thrashing around for any way to cut taxes in the hope that might save them?
 

Horizon22

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How about c), they can't change anything because they're forbidden to by DfT, who are controlled by self-serving politicians who realise that their government is doomed at the next election, and are desperately thrashing around for any way to cut taxes in the hope that might save them?

Well there's a bit of that as well ;)
 

akm

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Indeed, 2tph to Portsmouth is, in one sense, almost a record low in post-electrification history, but in the 80s when there were 3tph, one of the trains was overtaken at Guildford, so one could probably say that the current timetable, off-peak, is equivalent to the 80s.

FWIW in 1982 we had on the Direct around that time:

1920 semi-fast : 8Vep
1922 slow overtaken : 8Cig
1950 fast 12CBCig
2020 semi-fast: 4Cig/4Vep
2050 fast 12CBCig

4-cars were present on the 2120 with 4Vep.
Which of 'fast' and 'semi-fast' do the present-day fastest services correspond to? Did there used to be a service that made fewer calls than any service today?
 

gazzaa2

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Until it is back to normal on Monday and Friday, the revenue won't be there to support better services on Tuesday to Thursday.

Services at 2000 are often the first ones that run with shorter formations, because the train fleet is concentrated on the peak flows. Second guessing passenger flows is a bit of a challenge.

Hasn't the 2009 to Portsmouth via Basingstoke always been a 4 car 450?

Pre-Covid everyone always complained about rush hour travel though and highly crush loaded trains every day, that's not a utopia of how it should be, particularly the prices people pay. Horrid commutes were already accelerating the rise of WFH, as well as more people returning to their cars, especially with the railways becoming less reliable.

And the demand for leisure travel is through the roof and the supply just isn't there, whether it be rolling stock shortages, Covid timetables, interminable engineering works on weekends (when demand is especially high) and every round of strikes insisting on wiping out the weekend.

So many people are put off rail travel due to reliability issues/overcrowded trains and that's less revenue.
 

nw1

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Which of 'fast' and 'semi-fast' do the present-day fastest services correspond to? Did there used to be a service that made fewer calls than any service today?

In this case the 'fast' was Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield (stop skipped midday but present in the evening), Havant, Fratton (?), PSS, PH.

Midday in 1982 the xx48 called only at Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Havant, PSS, PH and was announced at Guildford as "the very fast train" (but oddly, sometimes as the "semi-fast train" in manual announcements).

The 'semi-fast' was more "fast to Guildford, then slow". Woking, Guildford, then all except Hilsea.

The "slow" was Wimbledon, Surbiton then all, except Hilsea.

The fastest ever service in modern times was in the mid-to late-90s, the xx40 discussed above, I believe that called only at Guildford, Havant, Fratton and PSS, where it terminated.
 

Stigy

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I hope this is said tongue-in-cheek, as what the government say and what we experience as SWR commuters is very different. The government will say anything to cut costs.

That’s exactly what he said. Beyond means after.
It was tongue in cheek, yes :)

I know as much as probably 95% of others who use the railway that passenger numbers are generally not far off what they were pre-Covid.
 

alastair

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Around 10 yrs ago I seem to recall a 1750 from Waterloo which was non-stop to Haslemere. It was 2 x 444 and was not that heavily loaded. I think we can be sure there won't ever again be anything missing out Guildford in the future!
 

gabrielhj07

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I seem to recall that lease charges for the Desiros are partly mileage dependant so there's a big financial incentive to minimise mileage.
More than a couple of times I’ve been on 12 car 450s running Alton services with at most, 15 people on them. 8 or 12 on that line seems to be the norm all day.
 

CE142

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ALL down to the DfT and the Tory Government. There will be more 'cuts and savings' with the May Timetable as well.
 
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43096

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I seem to recall that lease charges for the Desiros are partly mileage dependant so there's a big financial incentive to minimise mileage. This is the reason that for several years SWT ran them as 4 car at weekends on the Windsor lines despite crush loading that could be worse than weekday peaks.
It’s not the lease cost but the maintenance agreement with Siemens that has mileage bands in it. As mileages increase, cost increases (bogie changes are more frequent, for example) so the bands are there to reflect that.

At one point SWT used the 458s otherwise parked at Farnham for the weekend on Ascot-Guildford services as this reduced 450 mileage and kept them just inside the lower cost rate.
 

DelW

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Which of 'fast' and 'semi-fast' do the present-day fastest services correspond to? Did there used to be a service that made fewer calls than any service today?

The fastest ever service in modern times was in the mid-to late-90s, the xx40 discussed above, I believe that called only at Guildford, Havant, Fratton and PSS, where it terminated.
In the 1995 and 1997 timetables I quoted above (post 40), between Guildford and Havant: the xx.00 stopped only at Haslemere and Petersfield, and indeed the xx.40 ran nonstop.

Today all off-peak services stop at Godalming, Haslemere, and Petersfield (there may be odd peak trains that vary this).
 

Terminator

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More than a couple of times I’ve been on 12 car 450s running Alton services with at most, 15 people on them. 8 or 12 on that line seems to be the norm all day.
Maybe dead quiet in the middle of the day, but now all the early evening peaks have been reduced to 8 they are all rammed too esp. 16.55 / 17.25.

Around 10 yrs ago I seem to recall a 1750 from Waterloo which was non-stop to Haslemere. It was 2 x 444 and was not that heavily loaded. I think we can be sure there won't ever again be anything missing out Guildford in the future!
I remember that. There used to be an up working left Haslemere around 7AM fast to Waterloo too, and that definitely was heavily loaded.
 
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pompeyfan

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I can only suggest that the reduction in suburban and Windsor side rolling stock means there just isn’t the number of 450s to go around. At 2000 all the long formations are at the country end of the network, the only way you’ll get full length services is by shortening services further during the evening peak and holding them somewhere such as Clapham Yard. I agree with others that the 1950 Salisbury stopper is missed (although the curtailment of the Salisburys is to the benefit of passengers west of Yeovil (although I’m not sure where the stock comes from on Saturdays))
 

philthetube

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The Windsor side is a joke some morning/evening peaks now - I’ve been unable to board some services in recent weeks due to there being no physical space on the train. The reduction in services and a move back to 8 carriage trains is a real step back.
Delay repay at every opportunity, pics to local press, they are always looking for a story, letters to everyone with the slightest interest in railways and Windsor etc. etc. Lots of little waves can sometimes create big ones.
 

Craig1122

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Delay repay at every opportunity, pics to local press, they are always looking for a story, letters to everyone with the slightest interest in railways and Windsor etc. etc. Lots of little waves can sometimes create big ones.
Was talking to a friend today who is work from home 3 days/office 2 days. Is trying to avoid office days now due to frequent overcrowding (Their last experience was a 5 car in the morning peak) so any cost savings may end up being counter productive.
 

deepeetw

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Delay repay at every opportunity, pics to local press, they are always looking for a story, letters to everyone with the slightest interest in railways and Windsor etc. etc. Lots of little waves can sometimes create big ones.
Delay Repay is just a recipe for frustration most of the time - any excuse they can find to knock a claim back, they will use it.

Yes, you can get a token amount back once you satisfy their vexatious requests, however the cost of the time to get each claim complete makes it not worth the while.

For example, on a claim submitted this week, they say they can’t see my oyster number in the travel card receipt email they have on file against the ticket (I sent them all of this this during the December action - and they paid out in the end on about 80% of the claims I submitted).

Now they want a scan of the actual card, which will tell them nothing about the ticket on it!
 
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