TfGM Bus franchising

[Tim33160]

Technically yes and no. It was a High Peak service that runs in to Greater Manchester, and the ticket inspector worked for TfGM.
I was shocked because I have travelled on thousands of buses (including in London and other cities) and never had an inspector actually ask me for a ticket!
I'm aware of the signs warning of their existence, but never actually encountered one personally.

More likely TfGM data collector: they do have travelling data collectors who are recording passenger flows - here probably on a supported / tendered service.

Just an idle thought, but should the thread title now be changed to reflect that the Bee Network has now commenced and the fact that the TfGM website has now been replaced by the Bee Network website.

The current GM Bee Network only covers 20% of bus routes in GM. The next area B from 24 March 2024 adds a further 30% of routes with the final 50% only joining from January 2025.

There is still a lot of non-franchised routes which are in danger of being ignored - two route changes are sneaking out from Monday 29th: 280 at Altrincham; 382 at Stockport joining other more publicised route changes to Stagecoach 115 116 256 314 368.

 

[AlastairFraser]

More likely TfGM data collector: they do have travelling data collectors who are recording passenger flows - here probably on a supported / tendered service.

I mean, he specifically asked for tickets and passes please, but you may well be right.

 

[andrewbowden]

I mean, he specifically asked for tickets and passes please, but you may well be right.

I haven't seen a data collector since the 1990s. But back then they asked to see your ticket, and then logged details of it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I haven't seen a data collector since the 1990s. But back then they asked to see your ticket, and then logged details of it.

I saw them a few times a year on my school bus, typically travelling the whole ride and logging where people get on/off as well as the different tickets in use.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Data collectors are mostly irrelevant now with the advent of ticketer/other modern ticket machines

 

[WatcherZero]

I haven't seen a data collector since the 1990s. But back then they asked to see your ticket, and then logged details of it.

Not seen any on buses though have seem them occasionally walking around bus stations, and I have a couple of times been asked when standing at Metrolink stops what kind of ticket I was travelling on and what my destination was.

 

[158756]

More likely TfGM data collector: they do have travelling data collectors who are recording passenger flows - here probably on a supported / tendered service.


The current GM Bee Network only covers 20% of bus routes in GM. The next area B from 24 March 2024 adds a further 30% of routes with the final 50% only joining from January 2025.

There is still a lot of non-franchised routes which are in danger of being ignored - two route changes are sneaking out from Monday 29th: 280 at Altrincham; 382 at Stockport joining other more publicised route changes to Stagecoach 115 116 256 314 368.

Hang on. The Stagecoach website says those timetable changes (cuts would be a better word) are at the request of TfGM.

I had assumed the daytime service on the 256 and 368 would be fully commercial. But is that not the case if TfGM are requesting reduced timetables? Or are Stagecoach struggling to fulfil their franchise commitments and cuts are required elsewhere to free up drivers?

 

[JD2168]

Was this on a Bee Network service? Then it is probably the right thread.

You shouldn't be shocked as ticket inspections are normal on buses in most of the developed world, including London if you look at the prosecutions thread. But they are almost unheard of on deregulated buses for some reason. They probably see ticket checks as not worth the cost.

If it was on a First bus then First have started having ticket inspectors on their buses recently in a number of areas.

 

[ic31420]

Data collectors are mostly irrelevant now with the advent of ticketer/other modern ticket machines

Funny you say that I was in. a 472 service a few days ago. The first bod on the bus when the driver opened up was a chap who sat In the seat immediately behind the driver and whipped out a clipboard with several sheets of a4 with tables on it.

The bus was wedged as it seemed there was some missing services and we seem to have been upgraded to SD buses from our previous DD streetlites. Anyway he seemed to be taking a keen interest on how many were joining and alighting at the stops. When I alighted could see he'd been recording numbers in the boxes.

He didn't chat to anyone, was wearing an anonymous black jacket and carrying a black rucksack. He didnt check tickets and nor did he get up for the infirm old dear.

interestingly I paid on this occasion despite being waved onto the same vehicle earlier being told the card machine wasnt working.

I assumed he was a tfgm chap out checking the actual numbers matched the data they was getting from.the ticket machines.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If it was on a First bus then First have started having ticket inspectors on their buses recently in a number of areas.

High Peak, so not part of the Bee Network per se, but the service I was on travels into GM

I haven't seen a data collector since the 1990s. But back then they asked to see your ticket, and then logged details of it.

Ahh this must have been it.

 

[andrewbowden]

Data collectors are mostly irrelevant now with the advent of ticketer/other modern ticket machines

Well that depends entirely on the data you want to collect. If you want detailed information about people using day/season tickets, it's hard to see how a ticket machine can get you that without every passenger having to give full destination details when they board.

 

[Howardh]

Well that depends entirely on the data you want to collect. If you want detailed information about people using day/season tickets, it's hard to see how a ticket machine can get you that without every passenger having to give full destination details when they board.

Using card or paying, I don't even tell the driver my destination, it's a flat-rate single at £2 so who needs to know? Even the 125 which leaves the Bolton zone is still a flat rate all the way to Preston - meaning anyone on a budget can do Bolton/Blackpool return for £8 by bus; maybe even cheaper if there are any rover tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using card or paying, I don't even tell the driver my destination, it's a flat-rate single at £2 so who needs to know? Even the 125 which leaves the Bolton zone is still a flat rate all the way to Preston - meaning anyone on a budget can do Bolton/Blackpool return for £8 by bus; maybe even cheaper if there are any rover tickets.

I don't know how TfGM are working it (does their £2 scheme even get national funding?) - but some Council-operated schemes require the destination to calculate the reimbursement, as per passholders.

It would certainly be better if TfGM intend to stick with flat fares long-term if they moved to a London style system of just a quick tap-on on boarding with no need for a conversation nor a ticket being issued. It really does speed up London operation no end - one person operated buses in London are now easily as fast as conductor operated Routemasters were (the single entrance/exit on the RM offsetting the very slightly slower boarding on a modern bus).

 

[Howardh]

I don't know how TfGM are working it (does their £2 scheme even get national funding?) - but some Council-operated schemes require the destination to calculate the reimbursement, as per passholders.

It would certainly be better if TfGM intend to stick with flat fares long-term if they moved to a London style system of just a quick tap-on on boarding with no need for a conversation nor a ticket being issued. It really does speed up London operation no end - one person operated buses in London are now easily as fast as conductor operated Routemasters were (the single entrance/exit on the RM offsetting the very slightly slower boarding on a modern bus).

Think they are introducing tap-on tap-off for the local trains and trams, and certainly the current method holds up buses no-end while pax are trying to pay, card not working, etc (something we didn't have to put up with when conductors were around!) so I assume that's coming. Problem is many buses leave the TFGM area, so there may be different systems/charges in different zones.

Anyhow, if you tap on and off then the companies know the routes pax are taking, not so if you just tap on. But whaterver happens, I hope it's clear and simple, in London I forget whether I need to tap out on buses, and wouldn't have a clue at rail/tube interchenges, something about a "pink reader" or something? For tourism I prefer one all-day card so I can't over/under-pay.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have a query that someone better qualifled than I could answer. On the 199 route, instead of entering into Greater Manchester on its current route to the airport, would it be possible to change its route so on leaving the airport, it could take the access road to the M56 and then takes the road through Wilmslow and Poynton (both exterior to Greater Manchester), then to meet its existing route on a link road that will be outside the border of Greater Manchester?

 

[Deerfold]

I have a query that someone better qualifled than I could answer. On the 199 route, instead of entering into Greater Manchester on its current route to the airport, would it be possible to change its route so on leaving the airport, it could take the access road to the M56 and then takes the road through Wilmslow and Poynton (both exterior to Greater Manchester), then to meet its existing route on a link road that will be outside the border of Greater Manchester?

What are you asking? Is this a change you want to see? Are you suggesting it should omit Stockport? It would certainly be possible for High Peak to change the route if they wanted.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I have a query that someone better qualifled than I could answer. On the 199 route, instead of entering into Greater Manchester on its current route to the airport, would it be possible to change its route so on leaving the airport, it could take the access road to the M56 and then takes the road through Wilmslow and Poynton (both exterior to Greater Manchester), then to meet its existing route on a link road that will be outside the border of Greater Manchester?

No. TfGM subsidise some journeys from Stockport to Manchester Airport to fill a key missing link in the rail system.
And Cheshire East council are too broke to provide subsidy.

A significant amount of the High Peak and Disley (which is just in Cheshire for the benefit of outsiders) shop in Stockport too to access a better range.
If Manchester Airport decided to subsidise buses, as part of a sustainability scheme, I wonder if they'd contract out a couple of Wilmslow and Poynton circular routes to the Airport, using the A555 to whizz back after serving Wilmslow/Poynton and vice versa in the other direction.

An express Airport - Handforth Dean - Hazel Grove (connecting with the stoppers and Bux line services for a speedier option to the airport) - Romiley (connecting with the Hope Valley and Rose Hill Marple stoppers) bus may be a good idea every half an hour or an hour, tbh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are you asking? Is this a change you want to see? Are you suggesting it should omit Stockport? It would certainly be possible for High Peak to change the route if they wanted.

I can't see any sense in it omitting Stockport. Indeed isn't part of its main purpose (admittedly duplicating rail) to connect places between Stockport and Buxton with Stockport, and to connect Stockport with the airport (which rail doesn't do other than a convoluted route via Manchester)?

More likely it'll get a TfGM operating licence if it doesn't become a franchised route. Unlike Merseyside (a decision I still find bizarre) operating licences are I believe proposed provided the route meets the TfGM standards within the area and accepts and issues its tickets.

I suppose TfGM could just tender a separate Stockport-Airport Bee Network service, but if it ain't broke...?

 

[Deerfold]

I can't see any sense in it omitting Stockport. Indeed isn't part of its main purpose (admittedly duplicating rail) to connect places between Stockport and Buxton with Stockport, and to connect Stockport with the airport (which rail doesn't do other than a convoluted route via Manchester)?

More likely it'll get a TfGM operating licence if it doesn't become a franchised route. Unlike Merseyside (a decision I still find bizarre) operating licences are I believe proposed provided the route meets the TfGM standards within the area and accepts and issues its tickets.

I suppose TfGM could just tender a separate Stockport-Airport Bee Network service, but if it ain't broke...?

I don't see any sense in it omitting Stockport, either which is why I was trying to find out why they were asking.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I can't see any sense in it omitting Stockport. Indeed isn't part of its main purpose (admittedly duplicating rail) to connect places between Stockport and Buxton with Stockport, and to connect Stockport with the airport (which rail doesn't do other than a convoluted route via Manchester)?

More likely it'll get a TfGM operating licence if it doesn't become a franchised route. Unlike Merseyside (a decision I still find bizarre) operating licences are I believe proposed provided the route meets the TfGM standards within the area and accepts and issues its tickets.

I suppose TfGM could just tender a separate Stockport-Airport Bee Network service, but if it ain't broke...?

Duplicating rail when it runs. And a fair amount of the time (including during the recent Storm Babet), the railway wasn't operating but the bus was.
They already issue System One/Bee Network tickets, so there won't be any issues.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose TfGM could just tender a separate Stockport-Airport Bee Network service, but if it ain't broke...?

Is the 313 bus service still a Stockport-Cheadle Hulme-Manchester Airport bus service that also serves the World Freight terminal?

Stockport comes under tranche 3 of the Bee Network which does not take effect until 2025.

Indeed isn't part of its main purpose (admittedly duplicating rail) to connect places between Stockport and Buxton with Stockport, and to connect Stockport with the airport (which rail doesn't do other than a convoluted route via Manchester)?

Knowing that there are those who still believe in the existence of Ringway Airport as a separate airport to Manchester Airport, do the Bee Network have any plans to run any bus services there (once they can trace it on maps)?...

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is the 313 bus service still a Stockport-Cheadle Hulme-Manchester Airport bus service that also serves the World Freight terminal?

Yes, but it takes an absolute year, and you'd needlessly break the connection for airport staff and passengers who live in Heaviley, Great Moor and Hazel Grove.
If Cheshire East Council or Poynton and Wilmslow passengers want a better bus connection, surely it'd be better to subsidise more journeys on the 88 and reroute through Poynton and Adlington to Macc, surely?
Mobberley and Knutsford already have a train on the Mid Cheshire line to the other end of the 88 in Alty and an increased frequency across the route would benefit airport passengers that way, and Chelford has a train with a quick change in Wilmslow.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Cheshire East Council or Poynton and Wilmslow passengers want a better bus connection, surely it'd be better to subsidise more journeys on the 88 and reroute through Poynton and Adlington to Macc, surely?
.

Is there now the A555 link from the Adlington/Poynton area to the main A555 road that serves Manchester Airport?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Is there now the A555 link from the Adlington/Poynton area to the main A555 road that serves Manchester Airport?

Yes, I think you're referring to the A523 Poynton bypass. Hence why you could send the 88 from Alty to Hale Barns, Manchester Airport, Morley Green, then Wilmslow as current, then Dean Row, Woodford, Poynton (now quiet as the bypass has taken most of the traffic away from the centre), Adlington and down the A523 Tytherington bypass into Macclesfield station and bus station.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hang on. The Stagecoach website says those timetable changes (cuts would be a better word) are at the request of TfGM.

I had assumed the daytime service on the 256 and 368 would be fully commercial. But is that not the case if TfGM are requesting reduced timetables? Or are Stagecoach struggling to fulfil their franchise commitments and cuts are required elsewhere to free up drivers?

Theyve been ordered to improve the punctuality and reliability of the services which aren't meeting their registered schedule, Stagecoach believe the way they can do that is through reducing the services they are struggling to cover so for example 368 is going from 4bph to 3bph on Saturdays, 314 is going hourly after 8pm on weeknights rather than half hourly which reduces driver requirement meanwhile 115/116 is being trimmed while at the same time adding a lot more padding to the timings so to complete a full circle is scheduled to take 1 minute longer despite a shorter route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Theyve been ordered to improve the punctuality and reliability of the services which aren't meeting their registered schedule, Stagecoach believe the way they can do that is through reducing the services they are struggling to cover so for example 368 is going from 4bph to 3bph on Saturdays.

Is Saturday a particular day on the 368 route where not running to timetable has been a problem? Does the fact that the 11 route provides another service connecting Stockport and Wythenshawe Interchange have anything to do with that decision?

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a commercial decision so unlike with subsidised changes where TfGM publish their consideration and reasoning for each change I doubt we will know the reasoning. Stagecoach did propose the 368 routes Saturday service from 4 bph to 3ph in October last year as part of their package of cuts due to driver shortages as well and TfGM stepped in to subsidise it maintaining the frequency. So I am not sure now whether Stagecoach are now surrendering their subsidised service as they dont have the drivers to operate it (which should have come up as a subsidised network change with financial implications rather than a commercial change, which it hasnt) or Stagecoach are axing one of their commercial runs so TfGM will still be sponsoring one of the hourly service runs and receiving the farebox return in excess of operating costs from that run.

 

[Geeves]

Are there any updates when repaints will restart? Seems to have come to somewhat of stand still.

 

[GusB]

Are there any updates when repaints will restart? Seems to have come to somewhat of stand still.

There is a separate thread for the discussion of repaints, fleet movements etc., which you will find here:

TfGM Bee Network - fleet updates (repaints etc.)

For those who maybe interested, 40764 is the latest repaint into Bee Network yellow at BN depot, with 40796 the next one in. Repaints are also starting at outside contractors from this week too.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D9006]

I assume there is a shortage of double-deckers for Wigan depot, as the tender specification for routes 7, 8, 9 and 10 specified them but they
see very frequent use of single deckers. SD are also to be seen on the 35s, something Stagecoach managed to avoid. What were the requirements for the 575 as that sees a variety of both single and double deckers?