TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[island]

There's no reason BZ tickets shouldn't be available online

There isn't, but for now they aren't.

 

[bcarmicle]

The fact that this isn't true of all these railcards was specifically brought to the attention of the officials dealing with this proposal during TfL's consultation exercise by me and others. The fact they then went on to advise the Mayor in these terms strikes me as, in the most charitable interpretation, grossly incompetent. There is a less charitable interpretation where it amounts to misconduct.

Which bit isn't true? From my reading, they're saying that: Certain Railcards currently give an entitlement to a 1/3 discount on Off Peak Day Travelcards. From the withdrawal of Travelcards, this discount will be available on Oyster if you hold those Railcards. However, it would not entitle additional travellers to the same discount.

 

[Adam Williams]

Which bit isn't true? From my reading, they're saying that: Certain Railcards currently give an entitlement to a 1/3 discount on Off Peak Day Travelcards. From the withdrawal of Travelcards, this discount will be available on Oyster if you hold those Railcards. However, it would not entitle additional travellers to the same discount.

Presumably the railcards that were mentioned which cannot be added to Oyster at all?

 

[bcarmicle]

Presumably the railcards that were mentioned which cannot be added to Oyster at all?

Cannot currently, but doesn't mean that TfL aren't planning to change Oyster to allow them to be added in light of the withdrawal of Day Travelcards.

 

[JonathanH]

Cannot currently, but doesn't mean that TfL aren't planning to change Oyster to allow them to be added in light of the withdrawal of Day Travelcards.

That is somewhat hopeful and arguably very unlikely.

 

[Western Sunset]

Was ANY notice made of people's comments from the consultation process?

 

[bcarmicle]

That is somewhat hopeful and arguably very unlikely.

Possibly so, but the quote says:

It is important to note that should the Proposal be approved, these discounts will continue to be available by having the discounts applied to an Oyster card;

which does not, to my eyes, say that such discounts are currently available on Oyster, just that they are currently available on Day Travelcards, and that the effect of the Proposal will be to allow them to continue to be available, just via a different medium.

 

[redreni]

Would travelcards be withdrawn on Elizabeth line and london overground services.

I can't see any future for day travelcards if TfL doesn't accept them on the tube, DLR, buses and trams.

But hypothetically I genuinely don't know. EL and London Overground are national rail services, so I would think day travelcards would be either valid or not valid in line with the rest of the NR network in London. But TfL would try to make a special case of the EL core.

Was ANY notice made of people's comments from the consultation process?

Not as far as I could tell.

 

[miklcct]

I will be very disappointed if the withdrawal takes place, and it WILL affect my vote the next time. I'll choose the toughest mayor who won't make any compromise to any unreasonable demands from Westminster, and I'm happy for these shortfalls to be funded via council tax.

He did a great job before 2020 in keeping TfL fares affordable and had ambitious plans to bring good transport to South London which is blocked by Westminster. In my opinion, he should, at all costs, continue to deliver these improvements by refusing to accept the bailouts which comes with conditions that damage London's economy, such as reducing bus services or removing ticketing options which attract visitors to come.

 

[JonathanH]

And in that case Boundary Zone tickets could be retained. A niche product but one that I find very useful, and at weekends it is currently often better value to get a Travelcard + BZ than a return. (See Ely -> Reading for an obvious example).

In a future where it is necessary to touch out at the last station in the zonal area, the concept of a Boundary Zone ticket has no meaning.

While I recognise that you have come up with an edge case use for a NR only travelcard, which let's not forget may not be valid on the Elizabeth Line core, or parts of the Overground network not served by other operators, usage would be minimal, and it would soon be withdrawn.

The potential for confusion on a NR only ticket would be enormous.

 

[redreni]

Which bit isn't true? From my reading, they're saying that: Certain Railcards currently give an entitlement to a 1/3 discount on Off Peak Day Travelcards. From the withdrawal of Travelcards, this discount will be available on Oyster if you hold those Railcards. However, it would not entitle additional travellers to the same discount.

I will take back all the bad things I've said about TfL and apologise if that happens.

If I were working at TfL and that was our intention, I would be mentioning that in the announcement.

If you have plans to do something to mitigate the impact of something and it's beneficial to passengers (which it would be, since it would enable a 1/3 discount even where the daily cap isn't reached, whereas the discounted travelcard only gives you a third off if you would have reached the daily PAYG cap), why would you bury it in oblique wording deep in Appendix B to a rather lengthy submission that next to nobody is going to read?

 

[MikeWM]

There isn't, but for now they aren't.

They're available from TVMs around here though, fortunately. Though yes, in this example if you wait until you get to Paddington I think the ticket office is the only option.

--

In a future where it is necessary to touch out at the last station in the zonal area, the concept of a Boundary Zone ticket has no meaning.

Ah, more so-called 'progress' and 'convenience' that actually makes things much less convenient and/or more expensive for the passenger. Again, in this case I'll just do a lot less discretionary travel and the railway will get less £.

 

[JonathanH]

Possibly so, but the quote says:


which does not, to my eyes, say that such discounts are currently available on Oyster, just that they are currently available on Day Travelcards, and that the effect of the Proposal will be to allow them to continue to be available, just via a different medium.

Railcard discounts on Oyster don't help with the outboundary issue though, which is arguably the main problem.

The terms of the Network Railcard, including the £13 minimum simply don't align with offering a discount on Oyster. Allowing Network Railcard to provide the same benefits as other railcards on Oyster would destroy NR and TfL revenue to a far greater extent than TfL are hoping to recover through the withdrawal of the Travelcard.

 

[redreni]

Railcard discounts on Oyster don't help with the outboundary issue though, which is arguably the main problem.

The terms of the Network Railcard, including the £13 minimum simply don't align with offering a discount on Oyster. Allowing Network Railcard to provide the same benefits as other railcards on Oyster would destroy NR and TfL revenue to a far greater extent than TfL are hoping to recover through the withdrawal of the Travelcard.

And that's the other reason I don't think the advice on which the Mayor has based this decision can possibly be correct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no reason BZ tickets shouldn't be available online

SWR TVMs do them.

 

[Hadders]

It's certainly a minority, but the impact if you live in the outer zones can be pretty severe and there are more than one or two of us.

Before the pandemic this would have been of no consequence to me because I had a season ticket so there was no extra charge for travelling at the weekend. Now that I only commute 2 days a week, however, using public transport in London at the weekend is discretionary (I can stay at home or drive) and the Network Railcard discount is a big factor in any decision to do so.

I live in zone 6. It's a 49% increase if I switch to non-discounted PAYG. Unless I specifically intend to get drunk, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to drive.


The way I read this (and I could be wrong) this is assuring the Mayor that should he make the recommended decision (scrapping day travelcards, effectively), then customers would be able to add their Railcard discount (for all the Railcard types listed) to Oyster. They already can with some of them, of course.
edit: I am wrong: After reading this it clearly states at 1.45 that railcard discounts can already be added to Oyster. It said this in the consultation document and I responded to tell them this wasn't true of Network Railcards and to ask them if this would be addressed, but received no response. It looks like TfL officials ignored the consultation responses and then gave BS advice to the Mayor.

I don't think it says they already can add all the listed Railcard discounts to Oyster (although next time I'm at Abbey Wood ticket office I fully intend to try to get them to add my Network Railcard and see what happens, showing them a print-out of this document as evidence that they should). But it only says the current entitlement is for discounts off paper travelcards, with the oyster discount being something that would be possible if/when the decision is implemented, so I would say they've got until January to put this in place where it isn't in place already.

They need to do some coding so that, on weekdays after 10am, oyster charges the lesser of (a) the non-discounted fare or (b) the greater of two thirds the standard fare or £13. Same with daily caps. And presumably with weekly caps where the minimum fare would be deemed as £13 multiplied by 5, I guess. I'd have thought that would take a bit of time.

Good news if this is true! And if it's not true it means the Mayor made this decision based on false information.

I suspect the reference to Network Railcards being aboe to be added to Oyster is incorrect. Further in the supporting documentation, where there are examples of different fares it does say that a Network Railcard cannot be added to Oyster.

I wouldn't try and get a Network Railcard added to an Oyster card. If you did manage to get it done you could have issues if your card was inspected by an RPI at a later date.

There's no reason BZ tickets shouldn't be available online

The c2c website sells them!

 

[redreni]

At weekends I buy an inboundary Z1-6 day travelcard plus a boundary zone 6 to Maidenhead day return, both Network Railcard discounted, to go from Slade Green to Maidenhead. I buy these because they're not much more than the point-to-point day return, they allow me to make unlimited breaks of journey without hassle, and even detours within zones 1-6, and they let me take the bus to and from Slade Green station.

If the day travelcard is withdrawn I'll switch to the (slightly cheaper) point-to-point day return but I'll be inclined to insist on availing myself of the right to break my journey under the NRCoT at, for example, Canary Wharf, which has a very good Waitrose close to the station. I anticipate some resistance.

I can see why TfL want very much for break of journey in the core not to be allowed, irrespective of the actual rules, given they want to charge more for a return Slade Green to Tottenham Court Road on PAYG than it costs for a Network Railcard-discounted off-peak day return to, for instance, Iver. The lengths to which people will go not to see that it's the former fare, not the latter fare or the break-of-journey rules, that are the issue here are quite mind-boggling.

 

[heathrowrail]

If the issue is the price of these tickets, why not simply increase the price so the Travelcard component is paid the same as it would be inboundary? Many are priced that way anyway.

Because that would be common sense and we know Sadiq doesn't do that.

 

[redreni]

I suspect the reference to Network Railcards being aboe to be added to Oyster is incorrect. Further in the supporting documentation, where there are examples of different fares it does say that a Network Railcard cannot be added to Oyster.

I wouldn't try and get a Network Railcard added to an Oyster card. If you did manage to get it done you could have issues if your card was inspected by an RPI at a later date.


The c2c website sells them!

I'll say.

At Appendix 2 to Appendix B, where the worked examples are, it says

It is important to note that the third discount that is available on Day Travelcards with a National Railcard can be applied to Oyster, and this will continue to be the case should the Proposal be approved. When this discount is applied to a customer’s Oyster card, it applies a one third discount to daily PAYG caps and so is cheaper than the cost of Day Travelcards that are discounted by one third with a National Railcard.

The Mayor would have had to read through all the tables to see a footnote, after the tables for the Network Railcard (which, in fairness, show the very significant price hikes fairly clearly although they've chosen what look like quite niche examples to illustrate what is, in truth, a very general phenomenon) to finally find a footnote that contradicts the above and admits that Network Railcard discounts can't be applied to Oyster.

The tables don't say whether the PAYG fares used in the illustration of the impact on people who currently buy Network Railcard discounted day travelcards are undiscounted or if it assumes, as clearly stated in the submission, that they will be discounted if day travelcards are withdrawn. But if you know what the caps are you can work out that they're undiscounted.

They haven't told the Mayor that, though. They told the Mayor it would be possible to get all the railcard discounts on Oyster, just not for additional passengers travelling with you. Anyone reading this would think the daily PAYG cap for Network Railcard holders are already cheaper than discounted day travelcards, thus the withdrawal of day travelcards doesn't represent an increase for individuals. The use of family groups rather than individuals in the tables potentially reinforces this misimpression, since the reader could assume the reason for the big increases is because the adults and children travelling with the Network Railcard holder are no longer getting a discount, rather than because nobody is getting a discount.

 

[Hadders]

I'll say.

At Appendix 2 to Appendix B, where the worked examples are, it say

Appalling that something as simple as this slips through the proof reading process. I'd love it if Network Railcards could be added to Oyster PAYG but I just don't see it happening. To start with there's the £13 minimum fare on weekdays to sort out.

 

[GodAtum]

You buy a return to London Terinals and use Oyster or contactless PAYG to travel around London.

How much more would I have to pay if the current off-peak travelcard is £19.45 (with a network railcard)? The Lewes - Victoria off-peak return is £14.85, plus tube return is £5.40, totaling £20.25.

 

[SussexSeagull]

When I go into London on the vast majority of occasions I either go into Victoria, London Bridge or (more rarely) Waterloo then get the tube to where I am going then reverse the exercise or get off on a Thameslink core stop if it is near to where I am going so financially it won't make much difference to me in a majority of occasions.

However, from a tourist perspective I think it is very short sighted not to allow people to buy a ticket that allows them uncapped use of TFL services for the day. Also over the last few hundred years various institutions, including the arts, business and government have been based in London and this makes them less accessible to the rest of the country.

 

[Hadders]

How much more would I have to pay if the current off-peak travelcard is £19.45 (with a network railcard)? The Lewes - Victoria off-peak return is £14.85, plus tube return is £5.40, totaling £20.25.

That depends on where you're travelling once you arrive in London, and whether you've got a railcard associated with an Oyster card.

Assuming you haven't then a single Adult Underground journey in Zone 1 is £2.80 peak or £2.70 off peak. If you only travel in Zones 1-2 then the maximum daily cap is £8.10. If you travel out as far as Zone 6 by Underground then the fare is £5.60 peak or £3.60 off peak. The Zone 1-6 daily cap is £14.10.

 

[miklcct]

The c2c website sells them!

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll try next time if I need one.

 

[bicbasher]

Oyster/Contactless continues to act as an integrated method of travel within London with the caps being cheaper than a paper travelcard.

Passengers who use stations on the GWML from Reading into London and Luton Airport Parkway/Welwyn Garden City on GTR will continue to be capped using Contactless rather than purchasing the paper travelcard, although that only works if you don't have a discounted railcard, where they'll have to buy a standard ticket into London and then get the railcard added to Oyster. Southern stations from Merstham to Gatwick will also still be capped using Oyster or contactless.

With contactless being extended to more of the London commuter belt, passengers without railcards can still get the integrated travelling they've been used to when buying a paper day travelcard.

 

[Benjwri]

Passengers who use stations on the GWML from Reading into London

And what about everyone who doesn’t have the luxury of contactless on the GWML? Sounds like a 40% fare rise to me, which is in my opinion unacceptable.

 

[bicbasher]

And what about everyone who doesn’t have the luxury of contactless on the GWML? Sounds like a 40% fare rise to me, which is in my opinion unacceptable.

What else do you expect TfL to do? The Tory bail out has them being forced to find alternative revenue streams to fill the gap lost.

Now if the TOCs which are basically being told what to do by the DfT won't negotiate a new deal with them, then that's down to the incumbant government who have been using TfL and the TOCs as a political football since Covid. (Alas the Tories winning an outer London by-election because of the Labour run GLA introducing ULEZ to also meet TfL's funding issues).

 

[tomuk]

With contactless being extended to more of the London commuter belt, passengers without railcards can still get the integrated travelling they've been used to when buying a paper day travelcard.

Phase 2 of the Project Oval expansion of contactless to further stations has been trailed as including a contactless system upgrade to add railcard support.

 

[Snow1964]

They haven't told the Mayor that, though. They told the Mayor it would be possible to get all the railcard discounts on Oyster, just not for additional passengers travelling with you.

Actually there are two subtle confusions, strictly they used term National Railcards (not just railcard), so could argue a Network railcard isn't National, it's obviously no more National than say a railcard valid in Scotland. But much general did not make this clear.

The other one is the multiple people railcards, eg two together and family railcards. Obviously cannot add it to a single Oyster card. So in my opinion this has been misleading, because wasn't made clear.

 

[davews]

That depends on where you're travelling once you arrive in London, and whether you've got a railcard associated with an Oyster card.

Assuming you haven't then a single Adult Underground journey in Zone 1 is £2.80 peak or £2.70 off peak. If you only travel in Zones 1-2 then the maximum daily cap is £8.10. If you travel out as far as Zone 6 by Underground then the fare is £5.60 peak or £3.60 off peak. The Zone 1-6 daily cap is £14.10.

So at least three or four off peak trips to reach the cap even if it includes zones 1-6. Does the cap reduce if you use a railcard on Oyster or is cap fixed? If so it is even worse with the discounts.