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TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

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1D54

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Thameslink and Lizzy have made life travelling around the capital so much easier without the need to use LU trains.

If such a travelcard was introduced which wasn't valid on the tube I'd be fine with it. It will of course never happen but with a bit of pre-trip planning it'd be quite good.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Thameslink and Lizzy have made life travelling around the capital so much easier without the need to use LU trains.

If such a travelcard was introduced which wasn't valid on the tube I'd be fine with it. It will of course never happen but with a bit of pre-trip planning it'd be quite good.

Something like a "Greater London Day Ranger" might be nice for enthusiasts, but really, almost everyone is already using Oyster/contactless so it'd be as niche as other Rovers are.
 

jon81uk

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Thameslink and Lizzy have made life travelling around the capital so much easier without the need to use LU trains.

If such a travelcard was introduced which wasn't valid on the tube I'd be fine with it. It will of course never happen but with a bit of pre-trip planning it'd be quite good.

As it is TfL that want to withdraw, it would mean Elizabeth Line and Overground wouldn't be available on it anyway, so it definitely wouldn't happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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As it is TfL that want to withdraw, it would mean Elizabeth Line and Overground wouldn't be available on it anyway, so it definitely wouldn't happen.

LO (possibly except the former East London Line part) and the EL are National Rail lines, so they can't unless they withdrew from the Ticketing Settlement Agreement entirely.

I suspect they'd make it awkward, though, e.g. by telling barriers not to accept them and clueless staff refusing them anyway.
 

jon81uk

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LO (possibly except the former East London Line part) and the EL are National Rail lines, so they can't unless they withdrew from the Ticketing Settlement Agreement entirely.

I suspect they'd make it awkward, though, e.g. by telling barriers not to accept them and clueless staff refusing them anyway.

Then shouldn't the topic of the thread be London Underground and buses propose to withdraw one day travelcards if it is impossible for TfL to withdraw from them on all services?
 

jon0844

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Barcodes are simpler but not fast enough for TfL, that's why they're against accepting railway barcode tickets.

The latest readers, with the white light, are incredibly fast. Quicker than tapping, as long as the user has their phone ready with the code (or paper etc). They appear to be able to read at any angle or screen brightness, and show how much technology has advanced over the earlier generations. The exact same issue for self-checkouts at supermarkets in fact, with the newer ones able to read loyalty cards from a phone screen (e.g. Apple or Google Wallet) over a physical card with a barcode.
 

Farigiraf

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Something like a "Greater London Day Ranger" might be nice for enthusiasts, but really, almost everyone is already using Oyster/contactless so it'd be as niche as other Rovers are.
This sounds like exactly what they would do - remove something useful and reinstate it under a different name (see the many comments about reviving HS2 in other threads).

If they add zone 7 & 8 validity this could be good for those who like to go to ends of the line and back immediately without it timing them out with an incomplete journey, evening out the additions with a peak restriction
 

MikeWM

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It is a rather niche use, but I'd certainly use a travelcard on occasion without TfL services being included, especially assuming boundary zone tickets would be retained in that case. I'm currently looking at a big fare increase otherwise for a journey such as Ely -> Reading at a weekend - travelcard plus boundary zone return is currently much cheaper than the cheapest direct ticket, and remains so even if you add in the cost of 2 zone 1 journeys on Oyster.
 

MikeWh

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Of course that is precisely why TfL don't like Network Railcards though.
TfL would be quite happy with Network Railcards. The TOCs are adamant that the minimum fare should apply on weekdays which rules them out on Oyster. It may be possible to add a new category when new Oyster comes in, or even allow weekend fares to be a third set such that Super Off Peak can be catered for.
LO (possibly except the former East London Line part) and the EL are National Rail lines, so they can't unless they withdrew from the Ticketing Settlement Agreement entirely.
If you accept that the former East London Line is TfL then surely the EL core must also be TfL? Both of them continue onto NR lines at either end.
 

James H

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With barcode readers in general I find there is a huge variation as to how close to the reader one should hold the ticket - some require you to place it against the glass, others seem to work better with a bit of distance. #

I find the uncertainty is one of the factors that slows things down when at a gateline
 

Dougal2345

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On a few recent trips to London I've found a lot of LU ticket gates don't seem to accept paper tickets any more... the slot is still there but it feels blocked. Is this just lack of maintenance or is the plan to phase out paper tickets entirely?

(It's quite annoying when you have a queue behind you and have to back up. At one station recently I found none of the gates would take the ticket - with no-one around to consult I ended up following someone through the wide gate...)
 

1D54

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Last two day trips to London using Travel Card and i have had the same problems. I gave it one chance on the first trip of the second day, it gave the same reaction as above so i headed straight to the manned gate to get through for the rest of the day and on not one occasion did any member of gateline staff give it a second glance.
 

infobleep

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Most of the time if using a train it is to travel in towards the city and then use the tube once there, so unlimited travel on trains only isn't really any use when a standard return ticket will be cheaper.
Most of the time I don't wish to travel towards the City of London. I rarely go there.

My comments were for those who who could avoid the tube, just as I'm sure there were people who when using Oyster might have avoided the trains, when it wasn't valid on them.

TfL would be quite happy with Network Railcards. The TOCs are adamant that the minimum fare should apply on weekdays which rules them out on Oyster. It may be possible to add a new category when new Oyster comes in, or even allow weekend fares to be a third set such that Super Off Peak can be catered for.
If TfL accepted Network Rail cards they who lose money as more people would get a Thurs off. Would this be fully off-set by an increase in passengers?

I only mention this because the removal of one-day travel cards is to increase revenues.
 
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Haywain

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LO (possibly except the former East London Line part) and the EL are National Rail lines, so they can't unless they withdrew from the Ticketing Settlement Agreement entirely.
The sort of product being suggested would be completely new so would require an opt-in from TOCs. But it is such a pointless, and ultimately confusing, product that it just won't happen.
 
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MikeWM

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On a few recent trips to London I've found a lot of LU ticket gates don't seem to accept paper tickets any more... the slot is still there but it feels blocked. Is this just lack of maintenance or is the plan to phase out paper tickets entirely?

I suspect a bit of both. It has certainly gradually got worse over the course of the last 5 years or so, before that it was very rare to encounter a gate that didn't take paper tickets (or at least those that didn't, clearly had the slot covered up with tape or whatever).

(It's quite annoying when you have a queue behind you and have to back up. At one station recently I found none of the gates would take the ticket - with no-one around to consult I ended up following someone through the wide gate...)

The gates usually say 'cards/tickets' on the display if they accept paper tickets, or just 'cards' if they don't. Given the number of gates now that don't take paper tickets, I usually remember to look before trying. But I'd agree it ought to be clearer when approaching the gates, for the convenience of everyone.

I don't particularly object to a reduction in the number of gates that accept paper tickets - as long as it is made more obvious which are which, and as long as it doesn't get reduced so much that those with paper tickets are significantly disadvantaged.
 

infobleep

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The sort of product being suggested would be completely new so would require an opt-in from TOCs. But it is such a pointless, and ultimately confusing, product that it just won't happen.
I was thinking more of the existing product staying but TfL opting out if it.

Anyway I agree it won't happen.
 

Watershed

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And unlimited travel is still available by way of the Oyster/contactless cap, if people do still just want to knock around London the whole time. To avoid incomplete journeys it does mean exiting a station once in a while, but most people can manage that, just riding trains all day without a break for food etc is a very niche activity indeed.
You're paying twice if you travel from outwith the Oyster/contactless PAYG area though, unless you go to the inconvenience of stepping back a train to touch in at the 'boundary' station. It's unreasonable that people are expected to delay their journey (quite considerably so, if they have to switch to a stopping train) to merely equal the current arrangements.

Of course, the "you pay for what you use" model with PAYG suits TfL very well. It means there's no requirement to provide (free) alternative transport if the service is up the creek, and they get to charge extra if you take a more expensive route due to disruption too. Little wonder they plug PAYG so heavily.
 

Bletchleyite

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You're paying twice if you travel from outwith the Oyster/contactless PAYG area though, unless you go to the inconvenience of stepping back a train to touch in at the 'boundary' station. It's unreasonable that people are expected to delay their journey (quite considerably so, if they have to switch to a stopping train) to merely equal the current arrangements.

True if you're going all over London, but less so if you're doing the more common use case of just knocking around zone 1, though. A downside is the loss of a very cheap way of doing long South East day trips by way of Boundary Zone tickets, but again that's fairly niche.

Of course, the "you pay for what you use" model with PAYG suits TfL very well. It means there's no requirement to provide (free) alternative transport if the service is up the creek, and they get to charge extra if you take a more expensive route due to disruption too. Little wonder they plug PAYG so heavily.

That goes both ways. If your alternative is cheaper (e.g. bus only) you pay less.
 

redreni

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Most of the time if using a train it is to travel in towards the city and then use the tube once there, so unlimited travel on trains only isn't really any use when a standard return ticket will be cheaper.
Yeah it would be pretty niche, but I can think of cases where it would still be a useful ticket.

Take a day return journey on the EL from Romford to Slough on a weekend with a Network Railcard.

£11.55 day return or £13.55 for a day travelcard plus a day return Boundary Zone 6 to Slough.

Suppose you want to go up the Shard on the way there. The travelcard will let you change at Farringdon for the Thameslink to London Bridge and break your journey there, then resume it later. I don't believe there'd be a cheaper way of doing that? Or you want to see a play at the National Theatre on the way back, so you detour to Blackfriars (South Bank exit). You could also make detours to places like Kentish Town, West Hampstead and so on. Or virtually anywhere in South London. Or places in the north like Clapton, Walthamstow, Chingford, Tottenham.

It would be a much less useful and less used ticket, no doubt. But not useless, I don't believe.

Last Saturday I bought an inboundary travelcard plus a day return from West Drayton onwards purely because it was cheaper than the through ticket from Slade Green. I didn't use the tube at all.

It is a rather niche use, but I'd certainly use a travelcard on occasion without TfL services being included, especially assuming boundary zone tickets would be retained in that case. I'm currently looking at a big fare increase otherwise for a journey such as Ely -> Reading at a weekend - travelcard plus boundary zone return is currently much cheaper than the cheapest direct ticket, and remains so even if you add in the cost of 2 zone 1 journeys on Oyster.
Yeah, presumably if there was a Travelcard but it wasn't valid on the tube, you'd just take the train to Kings Cross and then walk across to St Pancras for the Thameslink to Farringdon and EL to Paddington?

So TfL would simply have reduced it's share of travelcard revenue for no benefit.
 
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miklcct

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I was thinking more of the existing product staying but TfL opting out if it.

Anyway I agree it won't happen.
The existing product will then be renamed to prevent confusion.

True if you're going all over London, but less so if you're doing the more common use case of just knocking around zone 1, though. A downside is the loss of a very cheap way of doing long South East day trips by way of Boundary Zone tickets, but again that's fairly niche.



That goes both ways. If your alternative is cheaper (e.g. bus only) you pay less.
Are there any statistics showing, on average, if the fare is cheaper or more expensive when there is disruption following the TfL-recommended route on PAYG?
 

crablab

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In last Thursday’s blog about the upcoming demise of the Day Travelcard in London I added the caveat to my analysis of how the new regime come January would impact passengers, TfL and Train Operating Companies (TOCs) that I “may have got all my assumptions wrong including what Apportionment Factors are currently in play – the figures I’ve quoted (from the original 1995 Agreement) may be out of date and no longer applicable.”

Thanks to those with inside knowledge of TfL and its involvement in Travelcard getting in touch I can now confirm my assumptions were indeed wrong.

Not only has the 1995 Agreement been updated but I misinterpreted the share out apportionments as well as quoting the wrong figures. I’m told the Apportionment Factors have “traditionally been updated on a quarterly basis” but in practice haven’t varied significantly, so current figures (regretfully still unknown) aren’t likely to be much different from the 1995 Agreement. It’s just that I applied the percentage shares to the wrong definition of “Travelcard”.

So I’m pleased to correct things now which paints a somewhat different picture of how and why the current apportionment of Travelcard revenue is unfair to TfL while the TOCs do rather well out of it.

This updated analysis also shows the TOCs are likely to be worse off come January which means, (politics aside) there must be scope for compromise enabling this popular integrated ticket giving unlimted travel on virtually all London’s public transport and used by millions each year to be retained.

Key to understanding this issue is the definition of what are called In-boundary and Out-boundry Travelcards.

The former refers to a standard London Zones 1-6 Travelcard which can still be purchased from stations (rail and Underground) within Zones 1-6 for £15.20 although most people now use Oyster/Contactless and rely on the daily cap, which at £14.90 potentially saves them 30p. Nevertheless the In-boundary Travelcard is still a thing and importantly is used as the basis for the apportionment of revenue between TfL and the TOCs for Out-boundary Travelcards.

An Out-boundary Travelcard is the ticket I purchased at Guildford and includes return travel by train from (and back to) a station outside of Zones 1-6 into Zones 1-6. A frying pan shape analogy applies.

The share out between TfL and the TOCs has nothing to do with the additional price a passenger pays for their Out-boundary Travelcard compared to the price of a return (rail only) ticket into London which as Geoff and I found varies considerably from different origin stations. The difference from Guildford was £7.40 but we found others range from around £2 to £12.

The share out is also not based on the price of the Out-Boundary Travelcard – I paid £32.20 for my Guildford Travelcard but that price is set by SWR with no involvement of TfL so it would be unfair to base a share out based on that.

What happens is no matter what price the Out-boundary Travelcard costs, £15.20 of it (representing the cost of an In-boundary Travelcard) is allocated to the share out pot between TfL and the TOCs.

So £17 of my £32.20 goes straight to SWR rather than being shared and £15.20 is shared out.

Furthermore, insiders tell me the current Apportionment Factor for that £15.20 for revenue taken by SWR is something like 26.9% to TfL and 73.1% to SWR (the most up to date percentages are not known but are unlikely to be much different – and as explained last time they vary by TOC too).

The TOC gets the lion’s share as shares are based on mileage and it’s reckoned most rail passengers will travel into Waterloo rather than hop off in, say, Surbiton and switch to TfL services from there.

This means I was wrong to assert TfL gets 30.5% of the total £32.20 price I paid for my Guildford Travelcard (ie £9.80) with SWR getting the other 69.5% (ie £22.40).

The share out is in fact 26.9% of £15.20 to TfL (ie £4.10) and 73.1% to SWR (ie £11.10) plus the £17 already explained that is not shared out, giving a total of £28.10 to SWR.

Readers will immediately see under the new regime where passengers will need to purchase a return rail ticket from Guildford to London as Geoff did costing £24.80 (instead of a Travelcard), SWR are going to be worse off by £3.30 (£28.10-£24.80) – a reduction in its income from that ticket of 11.7%.

Obviously SWR may benefit if, once in London, passengers tap with their Oyster/Contactless and travel on its services within Zones 1-6 but it doesn’t need much of a stretch of the imagination to assume most passengers, as Geoff and I did, will mostly use TfL services such as the Underground and bus while in London from which all the revenue will go to TfL.

While SWR almost certainly loses out, TfL, which currently receives just £4.10 per SWR Out-boundary Travelcard, will be better off as soon as a passenger makes more than one Zone 1 Underground and one bus journey with their Oyster/Contactless.

That’s why there’s scope for compromise. I can’t imagine DfT and Treasury officials being enamoured by an 11.7% fall in revenue from these ticket sales (annual sales reportedly 12 million) so it makes good sense to negotiate with TfL as the Mayor invited in his letter of 20th July. And this is quite apart from many passengers being dissuaded from travelling to London at all, not least families with 11 to 15 year olds as explained last time.

Let’s hope a sensible outcome in the interests of passengers can be achieved rather than any political point scoring.

My grateful thanks to the two ‘insiders’ for getting in touch.

Roger French

A really interesting analysis here with some additional context on how the apportionment works.

Full text above, but highlighting the pertinent paragraph:
The share out is in fact 26.9% of £15.20 to TfL (ie £4.10) and 73.1% to SWR (ie £11.10) plus the £17 already explained that is not shared out, giving a total of £28.10 to SWR.
So I think we we can see why TfL are a bit miffed about this!
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, that is a bit low when you consider that almost nobody who buys a Travelcard will do less than two Zone 1 Tube singles, which cost more than that! Of course as most people do just do that, it does show that a small increase in fare would make sense to allow these to be kept, possibly making it a standard uplift on the relevant Day Return for all routes (perhaps of say £5-6?). But as ever nobody is interested in common sense.
 

miklcct

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Yes, that is a bit low when you consider that almost nobody who buys a Travelcard will do less than two Zone 1 Tube singles, which cost more than that! Of course as most people do just do that, it does show that a small increase in fare would make sense to allow these to be kept, possibly making it a standard uplift on the relevant Day Return for all routes (perhaps of say £5-6?). But as ever nobody is interested in common sense.
I would say that the increase in fare should be made such that the price of the outboundary Travelcard is always equal to the price of the 1-6 Travelcard plus a return to Boundary Zone 6, as the validity is identical.
 

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Yes, that is a bit low when you consider that almost nobody who buys a Travelcard will do less than two Zone 1 Tube singles, which cost more than that! Of course as most people do just do that, it does show that a small increase in fare would make sense to allow these to be kept, possibly making it a standard uplift on the relevant Day Return for all routes (perhaps of say £5-6?). But as ever nobody is interested in common sense.
I think its a case of there is no solution that fits all the TOCs. If I take my typical case of an Ashford to London Zone 1 to 6 Off Peak travelcard with the median "not hs1" fare thats £40.90 currently 4.70 above the off peak day return. I dont have a Super Off Peak Travelcard option on that route so a travelcard after 10 and all day at weekends is a whooping £12.20 premium over the Super Off Peak return.
For that money I get a stopping EMU with 2 + 3 seating, no first class, no catering, averaging 40 mph.
Mr Milton Keynes (roughly the same distance in the opposite direction from London) pays £28.30 for his travelcard any operator. gets swanky tilting intercity trains, with catering and first class and long distance seating. at worst his train will make one stop before London. If he's skint he can pay even less for an EMU that has 2 + 2 seating goes faster and has less stops than Southeastern can offer.
 

redreni

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Many of the TOCs around London have no reason to care about revenue at all. And while there may be some in DfT who do care about fare revenue of TOCs operating under management contracts, that's not really a factor next to the main political priority which is to make something bad happen and blame the Labour mayor.

Incidentally the money the TOCs are losing is money they should never have had imho. There's no way, in a properly regulated system, they'd have been allowed to charge more for the combined ticket than the relevant London Terminals return fare (which would also be regulated, even off peak) plus TfL's share. Arguably they should have been required to charge less than that given it is reasonable to expect the combined ticket to drive additional business.
 

paul1609

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Many of the TOCs around London have no reason to care about revenue at all. And while there may be some in DfT who do care about fare revenue of TOCs operating under management contracts, that's not really a factor next to the main political priority which is to make something bad happen and blame the Labour mayor.

Incidentally the money the TOCs are losing is money they should never have had imho. There's no way, in a properly regulated system, they'd have been allowed to charge more for the combined ticket than the relevant London Terminals return fare (which would also be regulated, even off peak) plus TfL's share. Arguably they should have been required to charge less than that given it is reasonable to expect the combined ticket to drive additional business.
I think I'm right to say the only money the TOCs are losing is a very small percentage of their management fee. The lost money will be made up by taxpayers stumping up more funds to prop up what's looking like an increasingly unsustainable industry.
 

MikeWh

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I would say that the increase in fare should be made such that the price of the outboundary Travelcard is always equal to the price of the 1-6 Travelcard plus a return to Boundary Zone 6, as the validity is identical.
I completely agree. That would be a whole lot more transparent and easy to understand.
 

winks

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Senior management within SWR appear to want a compromise by January, but what is the Mayor actually doing to allow a way forward with the TOCs…. nothing !?
 

Haywain

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what is the Mayor actually doing to allow a way forward with the TOCs
Probably waiting for them to submit proposals. As he has set out his position it is for the TOCs to come up with an acceptable alternative.
 

Deerfold

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Senior management within SWR appear to want a compromise by January, but what is the Mayor actually doing to allow a way forward with the TOCs…. nothing !?

What does he need to do? Sems to be nothing unless there's something to react to. I'm not happy about what's happening, but understand that's the process that'll go through. And the TOCs are unlikely to offer anything as they won't be losing out and central government has little to gain by saving the Travelcard.
 
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