TfW possible timetable changes and rolling stock cascades connected with the introduction of 197 units

[Rhydgaled]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw-news-and-updates-on-introduction.182501/

The Class 197s will be operating on the following lines when in service:

North Wales Coast (Holyhead-Manchester/Birmingham)
Cardiff-Holyhead
Conwy Valley Line (Llandudno-Blaenau Ffestiniog)
Borderlands Line (Wrexham-Bidston)
Chester-Liverpool
Marches Line (Cardiff-Manchester/Liverpool)
Cambrian Line (Birmingham-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli)
Ebbw Vale Line (Ebbw Vale-Cardiff/Newport)
Maesteg-Cheltenham
Manchester-Milford Haven
Cardiff-Fishguard
Swansea-Pembroke Dock

Quite a few changes to the plan there (see my bold) beyond the ones we already knew about with 197s instead of 170 now intended for Pembrokeshire. What is going to happen with the 230s and 231s now that their work is planned to be covered by 197s? The list seems to be a bit confused in relation to north Wales though, with Llandudno only mentioned in relation to the Conwy Valley service so possibly the list isn't entirely accurate.

 

[Dai Corner]

Quite a few changes to the plan there (see my bold) beyond the ones we already knew about with 197s instead of 170 now intended for Pembrokeshire. What is going to happen with the 230s and 231s now that their work is planned to be covered by 197s? The list seems to be a bit confused in relation to north Wales though, with Llandudno only mentioned in relation to the Conwy Valley service so possibly the list isn't entirely accurate.

I wonder if they mean that the 197s will be cleared for the lines you've emboldened so they can work them if required?

 

[craigybagel]

Quite a few changes to the plan there (see my bold) beyond the ones we already knew about with 197s instead of 170 now intended for Pembrokeshire. What is going to happen with the 230s and 231s now that their work is planned to be covered by 197s? The list seems to be a bit confused in relation to north Wales though, with Llandudno only mentioned in relation to the Conwy Valley service so possibly the list isn't entirely accurate.

I wouldn't read too much into one article. There are changes to the original plan bit nothing all that dramatic.

Training on 230s has been suspended but not abandoned altogether, and AFAIK there are no changes with the 231s other than their temporary diversion to Rhymney to replace the 769s.

I wonder if they mean that the 197s will be cleared for the lines you've emboldened so they can work them if required?

I'd be very surprised if they weren't cleared for all routes just in case. The crews who will be working the 231s in South Wales will almost certainly be all trained on 197s anyway so there shouldn't be much issues subbing a 197 for a 231 if the need ever arises.

 

[tomuk]

Quite a few changes to the plan there (see my bold) beyond the ones we already knew about with 197s instead of 170 now intended for Pembrokeshire. What is going to happen with the 230s and 231s now that their work is planned to be covered by 197s? The list seems to be a bit confused in relation to north Wales though, with Llandudno only mentioned in relation to the Conwy Valley service so possibly the list isn't entirely accurate.

What were you expecting to run the Liverpool - Chester and the North Wales Coast services? Or are you referring to the end/start points of the routes?

 

[berneyarms]

What were you expecting to run the Liverpool - Chester and the North Wales Coast services? Or are you referring to the end/start points of the routes?

Exactly. It’s not exactly news that Class 197s will run everything along the coast apart from the three Mark 4 operated Cardiff-Holyhead return services.

 

[mmh]

Exactly. It’s not exactly news that Class 197s will run everything along the coast.

Well to be pedantic that is news. Where are the Mk4s going?

 

[berneyarms]

Well to be pedantic that is news. Where are the Mk4s going?

Sorry apart from three return Cardiff-Holyhead services!

 

[tomuk]

Well to be pedantic that is news. Where are the Mk4s going?

Nowhere There aren't that many Mk4 sets available. they will share South Wales to Manchester\Holyheads services with the 197s. Just as they do now with the 158s/175s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Change of management to CAF, though, and they're only really interested in the new trains. There's plenty of examples elsewhere where a change in depot ownership has resulted in declining reliability of the inherited existing fleet: Virgin West Coast being a very good example.

Bounds Green didn’t seem to look after the 225s once it became a Hitachi depot either

 

[Rhydgaled]

What were you expecting to run the Liverpool - Chester and the North Wales Coast services? Or are you referring to the end/start points of the routes?

In the case of the North Wales Coast, it was the start and end points given in the article that caught my attention, ie. Manchester-Holyhead (rather than Manchester-Bangor) and Chester-Liverpool (rather than running through to Llandudno). Probably an error in the article rather than an actual change of plan though given that Llandudno would be rather short on trains if that is really what is going to happen.

 

[175001]

A 175 went down to Alstom in Longsight for an exam this week.

 

[Jez]

I dont think there would be enough 197s to run all of those routes. As others have said they probably just cleared for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg lines (especially as they will run from Bridgend to Newport anyway) so they can cover when needed, maybe a few booked workings like the 175s get there now. Perhaps we will still see some North Wales to Maesteg's.

I'm pleased to see they mentioned Manchester-Milford specifically so hopefully that will continue as a through service.

 

[Anonymous10]

I dont think there would be enough 197s to run all of those routes. As others have said they probably just cleared for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg lines (especially as they will run from Bridgend to Newport anyway) so they can cover when needed, maybe a few booked workings like the 175s get there now. Perhaps we will still see some North Wales to Maesteg's.

I'm pleased to see they mentioned Manchester-Milford specifically so hopefully that will continue as a through service.

if they are cleared i would expect maybe an evening working each week to keep competence on the route?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well won't the Mk4 sets cover for the services that can't be operated by 197s?

 

[craigybagel]

Well won't the Mk4 sets cover for the services that can't be operated by 197s?

Mk4s will be working some Manchester - Cardiff/Swansea services to free up 197s to go to West Wales, to allow the release of the 170s to EMR.

 

[Jez]

Are they definitely running to Swansea ? Last I heard it was being cut to Cardiff-Manchester only. With 197s doing everything west of Cardiff..

 

[Caaardiff]

I dont think there would be enough 197s to run all of those routes. As others have said they probably just cleared for Ebbw Vale and Maesteg lines (especially as they will run from Bridgend to Newport anyway) so they can cover when needed, maybe a few booked workings like the 175s get there now. Perhaps we will still see some North Wales to Maesteg's.

I'm pleased to see they mentioned Manchester-Milford specifically so hopefully that will continue as a through service.

Depends on the introduction of the 756s. In the short term 231s are covering the Rhymney line. If the 170 leases are up the 197s will be needed to cover, or 175s if they are still around.
Also not sure if some of the Holyheads will still go through to Maesteg as they do now.

Are they definitely running to Swansea ? Last I heard it was being cut to Cardiff-Manchester only. With 197s doing everything west of Cardiff..

Some journeys will start at Swansea but not many

 

[LOL The Irony]

Mk4s will be working some Manchester - Cardiff/Swansea services to free up 197s to go to West Wales, to allow the release of the 170s to EMR.

I thought that was the case. Remind me again, do they go via Wilmslow or Warrington?

 

[Jez]

I thought that was the case. Remind me again, do they go via Wilmslow or Warrington?

If they are Manchester to South Wales I assume they will go via Wilmslow

 

[craigybagel]

I thought that was the case. Remind me again, do they go via Wilmslow or Warrington?

If they are Manchester to South Wales I assume they will go via Wilmslow

Correct, via Wilmslow.

if they are cleared i would expect maybe an evening working each week to keep competence on the route?

Trains don't need to be regularly used on certain routes, it's just the crews need to work those trains somewhere. Unless there's a big shakeup of the link structure in Cardiff most if not all crews who work the 231 operated routes will also need to be trained on 197s as the same crews work both service groups to various degrees.

I'm pleased to see they mentioned Manchester-Milford specifically so hopefully that will continue as a through service.

Hopefully indeed, though the MKIVs only running to Cardiff will complicate things. Unless the 197s spend an extra hour waiting around Milford Haven on top of their existing turnaround, you can't dedicate them to a separate Milford - Manchester circuit. At the moment they interwork with the Carmarthen - Manchester services.

Yet again, I would suggest people don't read too much into one newspaper article and instead wait for the full timetable to be published which will reveal all.

 

[Ribbleman]

Are they definitely running to Swansea ? Last I heard it was being cut to Cardiff-Manchester only. With 197s doing everything west of Cardiff..

Are some of the Pembrokeshire services not still to be worked by 153s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are some of the Pembrokeshire services not still to be worked by 153s?

Nah I believe those will only be retained for the Heart of Wessex Line, plus Crewe to Shrewsbury when the Swansea services are extended that way.

 

[Western 52]

Nah I believe those will only be retained for the Heart of Wessex Line, plus Crewe to Shrewsbury when the Swansea services are extended that way.

The 153s are around 34 years old, so you'd hope there is a replacement plan!

 

[Jez]

Are some of the Pembrokeshire services not still to be worked by 153s?

I think the 153s are just for the Heart of Wales line with some services possible starting in Carnarthen and extended to Crewe as now. So yes West of Cardiff we could see some 153s in the Swansea Carmarthen area.

 

[Anonymous10]

Correct, via Wilmslow.


Trains don't need to be regularly used on certain routes, it's just the crews need to work those trains somewhere. Unless there's a big shakeup of the link structure in Cardiff most if not all crews who work the 231 operated routes will also need to be trained on 197s as the same crews work both service groups to various degrees.


Hopefully indeed, though the MKIVs only running to Cardiff will complicate things. Unless the 197s spend an extra hour waiting around Milford Haven on top of their existing turnaround, you can't dedicate them to a separate Milford - Manchester circuit. At the moment they interwork with the Carmarthen - Manchester services.

Yet again, I would suggest people don't read too much into one newspaper article and instead wait for the full timetable to be published which will reveal all.

ah ok many thanks wasn't familiar so was more wondering

 

[Anonymous10]

Are some of the Pembrokeshire services not still to be worked by 153s?

153s are for heart of wales only plan was never to be 153s for west wales

 

[anthony263]

From what I’ve read is a departure every 2 hours from Cardiff or Manchester should be a loco hauled set with passengers changing to/from a class 197 at Cardiff Central.

Only loco hauled west of Cardiff is suggested to be as follows:

0535!swansea to Manchester and 1630 Manchester to Swansea

 

[sd0733]

From what I’ve read is a departure every 2 hours from Cardiff or Manchester should be a loco hauled set with passengers changing to/from a class 197 at Cardiff Central.

Only loco hauled west of Cardiff is suggested to be as follows:

0535!swansea to Manchester and 1630 Manchester to Swansea

Pretty much what I've seen too, although it's an 0600 Swansea to Manchester and 1630 return that I've seen

Both Swanseas running ecs to/from Canton.

 

[tomuk]

The 153s are around 34 years old, so you'd hope there is a replacement plan!

The Mk4s are of a similar age. Is there a replacement plan for those? I'm hoping TfW didn't pay much more than scrap value for them.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm pleased to see they mentioned Manchester-Milford specifically so hopefully that will continue as a through service.

Pretty much what I've seen too, although it's an 0600 Swansea to Manchester and 1630 return that I've seen

Both Swanseas running ecs to/from Canton.

There's going to need to be some big changes with the Milford services since at the moment they depart around 30 minutes past every even hour from Manchester, and those are the services earmarked for MKIVs.

Personally I suspect we'll end up with all Manchester services only running as far as Cardiff, alternating between MKIV and 197 operation.

There could be a degree of through running to West Wales from the other Marches services though (Holyhead/Liverpool) as they will mostly be 197 worked.

The Mk4s are of a similar age. Is there a replacement plan for those? I'm hoping TfW didn't pay much more than scrap value for them.

Not yet, but there's a lot less to worry about mechanically with them since they can't move by themselves. Look at how well the much older MKIIIs are doing.