TfW possible timetable changes and rolling stock cascades connected with the introduction of 197 units

[craigybagel]

When are the MK4s being introduced on the Manchester to Cardiff ? Is it December 22? If so we should know about the changes very soon.

That's the plan currently being worked towards.

 

[sd0733]

That's the plan currently being worked towards.

More likely now to be into 2023 for all 8 sets. 4 Mk4 sets in the pool in December is the latest plan I believe, with 3 diagrams, 2 Holyhead ones plus a Manchester. Units will be STP'd onto the diagrams to start with with all 8 sets released from SDO and refurb by May TT change with 1 additional set expected every 4 weeks approx from December onwards

 

[Bikeman78]

More likely now to be into 2023 for all 8 sets. 4 Mk4 diagrams in December is the latest plan I believe, the 3 Holyhead ones plus a Manchester. Units will be STP'd onto the diagrams to start with with all 8 sets released from SDO and refurb by May TT change with 1 additional set expected every 4 weeks approx from December onwards

There's only two Holyhead diagrams at the moment so I expect it will be two Holyhead and two Manchester turns from December.

 

[sd0733]

There's only two Holyhead diagrams at the moment so I expect it will be two Holyhead and two Manchester turns from December.

That was me writing things in a rush and mixing things together, there will be 4 sets I should have said but only 3 diagrams.
The first ex GC set should be added to the pool next month as a 4car (minus TO) which will release an original set to go for Mods/refurb. As a set returns from work it will replace the next until all sets are 5car Sdo fitted tfw spec interior.

Apologies for the confusion with the original post, amended to correct it.

 

[Bikeman78]

That was me writing things in a rush and mixing things together, there will be 4 sets I should have said but only 3 diagrams.
The first ex GC set should be added to the pool next month as a 4car (minus TO) which will release an original set to go for Mods/refurb. As a set returns from work it will replace the next until all sets are 5car Sdo fitted tfw spec interior.

Apologies for the confusion with the original post, amended to correct it.

Thanks for the update.

 

[craigybagel]

More likely now to be into 2023 for all 8 sets. 4 Mk4 sets in the pool in December is the latest plan I believe, with 3 diagrams, 2 Holyhead ones plus a Manchester. Units will be STP'd onto the diagrams to start with with all 8 sets released from SDO and refurb by May TT change with 1 additional set expected every 4 weeks approx from December onwards

Sounds reasonable enough. Should also hopefully give them time to keep up with the crew training side of things as well - with not all the relevant crews likely to be trained by December, but they should be a lot further along by May.

 

[Signal_Box]

I heard that now-CAF Chester are just sending the 175s to Longsight one-at-a-time for any fault repairs.

You’d have to wonder why, Chester has built up over 20 years of experience with the class as the mother ship depot.
Nothing has really changed aside from a new uniform and branding, techs will still be the same people etc.

Longsight is a 390 depot essentially like Chester a mothership with skills built up over 20+ years of working on the class.

What ive heard is the old Eurostar depot will be used to store off lease units when the time comes, but even then there’s not enough room for that many.

ah ok many thanks wasn't familiar so was more wondering

That’s part of the reason the 170s where on cleared on a very tight route list to keep them within Cardiff Mainline crew jobs only to save training other depots.

 

[Caaardiff]

I heard that now-CAF Chester are just sending the 175s to Longsight one-at-a-time for any fault repairs.

Heavy maintenance, not fault repairs. 175s are still based at chester and will continue routine maintenance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

the old Eurostar depot will be used to store off lease units when the time comes, but even then there’s not enough room for that many.

Is “the old Eurostar depot” not now North Pole IEP Depot?

 

[Signal_Box]

Is “the old Eurostar depot” not now North Pole IEP Depot?

No, one is in Manchester the other in London.

Former Regional Eurostar depot opposite Longsight Manchester Alstom depot.
CAF used the place to commission the TPE MK5 sets.

 

[43102EMR]

No, one is in Manchester the other in London.

Former Regional Eurostar depot opposite Longsight Manchester Alstom depot.
CAF used the place to commission the TPE MK5 sets.

So is there no immediate use planned for the outgoing fleet (i.e. 175s and 158s)?

 

[LOL The Irony]

So is there no immediate use planned for the outgoing fleet (i.e. 175s and 158s)?

AFAIK no, but I do know of a neighbouring TOC where they'd both be more than welcome.

 

[craigybagel]

So is there no immediate use planned for the outgoing fleet (i.e. 175s and 158s)?

Lots of rumours but nothing publicly confirmed. I'd be amazed if there isn't some kind of plan being worked on behind the scenes for them though.

 

[Signal_Box]

So is there no immediate use planned for the outgoing fleet (i.e. 175s and 158s)?

I’m sure the 158s will be snapped up, 175s I’ve no idea.

 

[Philip]

I heard 175001 setting off today - it doesn't sound too healthy to say the least!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Lots of rumours but nothing publicly confirmed. I'd be amazed if there isn't some kind of plan being worked on behind the scenes for them though.

There was, of course, that curious reference to "Class 165 and 175 trains in the fleet" in a DfT document regarding Chiltern Railways.

 

[Signal_Box]

There was, of course, that curious reference to "Class 165 and 175 trains in the fleet" in a DfT document regarding Chiltern Railways.

Could be a good replacement for the MK3 + 68 sets in five or six car formations?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Could be a good replacement for the MK3 + 68 sets in five or six car formations?

Sure, although some disputed that two/three carriage formations would be sufficient (I strongly disagreed), but there’s a separate thread which would be more appropriate about discussion on 175s at Chiltern. I think it’s in Speculative Discussion - worth a read; I certainly found it quite interesting.

 

[Jez]

I heard 175001 setting off today - it doesn't sound too healthy to say the least!

Not sure about 175001 but I was on 175002 yesterday between Neath and Carmarthen - 35 minutes late and had to be terminated in Carmarthen with road replacement transport being organised for onward journeys to Haverfordwest and Milford Haven. Unusually It made an extra stop in Ferryside and met the train going to Manchester where there was a change of train crew. Good way of ensuring train crew are in the right place. But I was surprised Ferryside passengers were allowed to board given it wasnt a booked stop and it was so late the next train stopping was about 15 minutes later. Id have thought the train crew would just have opened the local door.

If the 175s are struggling the sooner the 197s come in to replace them the better. Every time i have used the train in recent months (probably about half a dozen times) its either been overcrowded or late (or both!) It doesnt give a great impression to customers to be honest.

 

[Mzzzs]

Traveled on one from Cardiff to Manchester it was overcrowded for most of the trip the sooner the caf stock comes in the better.
For the future they probably should go to gwr as a replacement for the short hst sets and class 150/158 for there long distance regional services.

 

[43102EMR]

Traveled on one from Cardiff to Manchester it was overcrowded for most of the trip the sooner the caf stock comes in the better.
For the future they probably should go to gwr as a replacement for the short hst sets and class 150/158 for there long distance regional services.

The problem is clearly reduced maintenance by TfW as they’re due to leave soon, but otherwise they’re great units. Frankly, it’s a crime that out of all the units staying, it’s the 153s.

 

[Mzzzs]

The problem is clearly reduced maintenance by TfW as they’re due to leave soon, but otherwise they’re great units. Frankly, it’s a crime that out of all the units staying, it’s the 153s.

The location of the dedicated Chester tmd has always been a problem for the units, it’s not convenient it would better placed at Swansea ,Cardiff or Manchester. However other tmd do some work on them but nothing like Chester tmd where most of the heavy work is done.
Most of the maintenance for tfw seems off like a tfw class 150 leaving Cardiff sounded like a jet.
The fact that tfw are committed to all these new trains and haven’t bothered to replace class 153 is shocking surely some deal with caf could be made for a replacement.

 

[Caaardiff]

The problem is clearly reduced maintenance by TfW as they’re due to leave soon, but otherwise they’re great units. Frankly, it’s a crime that out of all the units staying, it’s the 153s.

They are actually getting more maintenance from Alstom/CAF due to them leaving soon as part of the lease agreements.

 

[Wyrleybart]

The fact that tfw are committed to all these new trains and haven’t bothered to replace class 153 is shocking surely some deal with caf could be made for a replacement.

They were. From what I remember, the oldest trains in the TfW fleet were to be the MkIVs and the 170s, with 142 143 150 153 158 and 175 all going in the bin. The 170s from GA were planned to move west and cover West Wales and HOWL and Salop Crewe. However, it seems to me that someone in DfT has managed to persuade TfW to let go of the 170s and refurbish 153s instead.

 

[Caaardiff]

They were. From what I remember, the oldest trains in the TfW fleet were to be the MkIVs and the 170s, with 142 143 150 153 158 and 175 all going in the bin. The 170s from GA were planned to move west and cover West Wales and HOWL and Salop Crewe. However, it seems to me that someone in DfT has managed to persuade TfW to let go of the 170s and refurbish 153s instead.

The clearance and gauging issues in West Wales and HOWL were too expensive to make the 170's viable. Someone didn't do their homework before committing to them heading West.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry, is Ebbw Vale to be covered by the FLIRTS? I read something about plans for 197s on that route but assumed that was simply “just-in-case” route clearance, just how 158/175s can and do cover for 170s today.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The problem is clearly reduced maintenance by TfW as they’re due to leave soon, but otherwise they’re great units. Frankly, it’s a crime that out of all the units staying, it’s the 153s.

The Mark 4's are roughly the same age as the 153's - just that that 153's are noisier that's all because of the underfloor engine underneath!

I hope 3-coach 197's will be the minimum and no 2-car sets unless in an emergency!

 

[Kite159]

Sorry, is Ebbw Vale to be covered by the FLIRTS? I read something about plans for 197s on that route but assumed that was simply “just-in-case” route clearance, just how 158/175s can and do cover for 170s today.

I believe Ebbw Vale is meant to be the diesel/battery Flirts (the 231s). Most likely 197s will get cleared for that route as a 'just in case' and to future proof.

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As for the 153s, I wouldn't be surprised if TfW don't order more 197s from CAF at some point to allow the old sprinters to get retired. Before parts become harder to get.

 

[Esker-pades]

Thanks for the reply, that reduces my confusion.

The WCML is due for a recast in December 2022 (along with the North Wales Coast, and possibly other parts of Wales), isn't it? That might be the way someone's squaring the circle at the timetable department.

The two timetable restructurings aren't happening at the same time, so the likelihood of a change in path to/from Manchester of the Manchester-Cardiff-West Wales service is minimal.

 

[Philip]

The two timetable restructurings aren't happening at the same time, so the likelihood of a change in path to/from Manchester of the Manchester-Cardiff-West Wales service is minimal.

Aren't TfW working on a new timetable for December 2022 with the introduction of mk4 coaches on the Manchester to South Wales route?