The AC Electrics: Classes 80-85, 86, 87

[Bald Rick]

91/Mk4 kit was designed for tilt to be added later if desired. Its why the vehicle sides tapered inwards, to allow for tilt.

AIUI, whilst the Mark IVs were designed for adding tilt later (although I think it probable that the design would be modified for future builds, not that tilt would be added to those already built), the 91s were never intended to tilt. They had the same profile partly for aerodynamics, but partly so they looked ‘right’. The driver would just have to hang on round the bends!

 

[hexagon789]

Does anyone know if it ever worked a revenue-earning train (before being subsumed into class 85)?

Just to clarify, it wasn't an 85 it was an 83 - becoming 83015 under TOPS.

As to working a revenue train before conversion to standard, it would've been difficult. Few drivers were trained on it and it had very restricted running during its experimental days

 

[edwin_m]

91/Mk4 kit was designed for tilt to be added later if desired. Its why the vehicle sides tapered inwards, to allow for tilt. They also had a 140mph capacity but was never used because signalling wasnt installed. Then there came in a requirement that speeds greater then 125mph needed cab signalling.

Not sure if it was ever intended to retrofit, more to have a common bodyshell so more could have been ordered in a tilting version for the WCML. Although I'm not sure why a common bodyshell was so important - MetroCammell built essentially a Mk4 bodyshell to a non-tilt profile in the form of the Class 156.

re the early ones. i think they were delivered with two pans, but one was later removed. But they used the space in the roof well to put some cylindrical tanks. Compressed air i think. They also made a loud howling noise, I believe by the traction motor cooling blowers. In Carlisle station they were deafening.

I believe these were the reservoir cylinders for...

All the electric locos were also dual braked 1970-72

For completeness it should be mentioned that the 87s were air brake only. Consequently they had to find an 86 for the Manchester Pullman until the Mk2(ish) originals were replaced by Mk3s in the mid-80s. These were, I think, the only stock to be air conditioned but vacuum braked.

 

[Strathclyder]

@Ken H mentioned the 81-85's roar/wail when under power, particularly when pulling away. Featured within the video below are two 85s (skip to 1:59 & 14:20 for the specific clips) doing just that at Crewe. In my mind (am sure some will disagree lol), this makes the 81-85s among the most evocative sounding electric locos ever built, the 86s/87s a very close second.

(originally recorded by Alan Harrison in July 1986 & uploaded to YT by kartwheelkarl)

 

[Ken H]

@Ken H mentioned the 81-85's roar/wail when under power, particularly when pulling away. Featured within the video below are two 85s (skip to 1:59 & 14:20 for the specific clips) doing just that at Crewe. In my mind (am sure some will disagree lol), this makes the 81-85s among the most evocative sounding electric locos ever built, the 86s/87s a very close second.

(originally recorded by Alan Harrison in July 1986 & uploaded to YT by kartwheelkarl)

thanks for that m8

 

[Bald Rick]

That clip does show the economics of Motorail trains, incidentally!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just to clarify, it wasn't an 85 it was an 83 - becoming 83015 under TOPS.

As to working a revenue train before conversion to standard, it would've been difficult. Few drivers were trained on it and it had very restricted running during its experimental days

Sorry for the class error - should have looked.
Was traction knowledge regarded as so important in the 1960's? I know it's slightly different, but I remember a Gresley V2 turned up on Northampton shed one Sunday and it was booked out on (and worked) the 08.05 Euston Monday morning. Everything (incl. brakes) was different from the usual Black 5, but the Northampton crew coped...

 

[Snow1964]

Sorry for the class error - should have looked.
Was traction knowledge regarded as so important in the 1960's? I know it's slightly different, but I remember a Gresley V2 turned up on Northampton shed one Sunday and it was booked out on (and worked) the 08.05 Euston Monday morning. Everything (incl. brakes) was different from the usual Black 5, but the Northampton crew coped...

I might be wrong, but I believe controls were standardised, and traffic light sectors included in the ampmeters, so could just drive to the green/orange, without remembering the actual power numbers for each class.

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry for the class error - should have looked.
Was traction knowledge regarded as so important in the 1960's? I know it's slightly different, but I remember a Gresley V2 turned up on Northampton shed one Sunday and it was booked out on (and worked) the 08.05 Euston Monday morning. Everything (incl. brakes) was different from the usual Black 5, but the Northampton crew coped...

My book makes special note of diagramming difficulties due to the experimental nature of the locomotive and this together with limited numbers if drivers who signed it was a factor in its conversion back to standard so I assumed it must've been an issue.

I might be wrong, but I believe controls were standardised, and traffic light sectors included in the ampmeters, so could just drive to the green/orange, without remembering the actual power numbers for each class.

E3100 had different maximum current ratings to standard iirc, once I can look out my book I can list the actual amperages.

 

[Ken H]

this may be of interest (Its an article about the Electric Scots)

Timetable World Viewer

timetableworld.com

 

[jfollows]

this may be of interest (Its an article about the Electric Scots)

Timetable World Viewer

timetableworld.com

I don't think it is, I get "London Midland & Scottish Railway - June 1947 [Great Britain & N Ireland] - Bookmarked"

EDIT - However I can find it by navigating to "Non-Timetable Items"/"BR Electric Scots [Great Britain]" from where the link initially takes me.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't think it is, I get "London Midland & Scottish Railway - June 1947 [Great Britain & N Ireland] - Bookmarked"

The link seems to default to the LMS timetable, but the Electric Scots leaflet is found under 'Non-timetable items' from the left-hand drop-down menu

 

[Helvellyn]

@Ken H mentioned the 81-85's roar/wail when under power, particularly when pulling away. Featured within the video below are two 85s (skip to 1:59 & 14:20 for the specific clips) doing just that at Crewe. In my mind (am sure some will disagree lol), this makes the 81-85s among the most evocative sounding electric locos ever built, the 86s/87s a very close second.

(originally recorded by Alan Harrison in July 1986 & uploaded to YT by kartwheelkarl)

Hence the 'Roarer' nickname for Classes 81-85!


Incidentally, I've been doing some searching and rediscovered this shortish article about 60 years of High Speed Electrics.

 

[ac6000cw]

Hence the 'Roarer' nickname for Classes 81-85!


Incidentally, I've been doing some searching and rediscovered this shortish article about 60 years of High Speed Electrics.

Yes

I used to see them regularly at B'ham New Street in the 70's on the NW - SW/S trains (which changed traction there). Mostly 81s and 85s from memory, but occasionally some of the others. They made a nice contrast to the 86s on the London trains.

 

[WesternLancer]

That clip does show the economics of Motorail trains, incidentally!

Good point - was it usual for motorial trains to be with seated carriages - as the nicely reliveried Mk1s in that set. I had always thought they were largely sleepers plus car carriers. Were their day time Motorail services at that point in the 80s?

 

[Snow1964]

Good point - was it usual for motorial trains to be with seated carriages - as the nicely reliveried Mk1s in that set. I had always thought they were largely sleepers plus car carriers. Were their day time Motorail services at that point in the 80s?

Some were long eg Stirling - Brockenhurst, so were more than just middle of night

Memory might have faded but I thought the motorail from Brockenhurst used to depart about 7pm, the carriages used to be in the up loop platform, the loco would pull the car wagons from the loading dock (next to Lymington platform), shunt it on back of train, run round (which kept level crossing gates down for a while) then set off. Obviously needed day seating as cars were loaded from about 6pm which was far too early for bed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Some were long eg Stirling - Brockenhurst, so were more than just middle of night

Memory might have faded but I thought the motorail from Brockenhurst used to depart about 7pm, the carriages used to be in the up loop platform, the loco would pull the car wagons from the loading dock (next to Lymington platform), shunt it on back of train, run round (which kept level crossing gates down for a while) then set off. Obviously needed day seating as cars were loaded from about 6pm which was far too early for bed.

Thanks - so that would have needed sleepers and 'day coaches', logically enough - whilst the one in that film clip only has seated carriages and flat bed wagons for the cars.

 

[AJP62]

Thanks - so that would have needed sleepers and 'day coaches', logically enough - whilst the one in that film clip only has seated carriages and flat bed wagons for the cars.

The one in the clip was probably the Kensington Olympia to Perth daytime train which I think ran daily in the summer around then. It would usually drop a portion at Carlisle heading north which would give a few more cars on the last 3 or so flats after a gap in cars on quieter days but this one doesn't seem to have that.
No catering vehicle for an all day journey to Perth but I think you could book a packed lunch to pick up on board.

 

[WesternLancer]

The one in the clip was probably the Kensington Olympia to Perth daytime train which I think ran daily in the summer around then. It would usually drop a portion at Carlisle heading north which would give a few more cars on the last 3 or so flats after a gap in cars on quieter days but this one doesn't seem to have that.
No catering vehicle for an all day journey to Perth but I think you could book a packed lunch to pick up on board.

Thanks! Interesting to read that - and I guess using the wagons for a day time service actually made slightly better use of the stock.

 

[O L Leigh]

But they used the space in the roof well to put some cylindrical tanks. Compressed air i think.

I was always under the impression that they contained the halon fire extinguishing gas which is highly toxic.

MetroCammell built essentially a Mk4 bodyshell to a non-tilt profile in the form of the Class 156.

In the sense that they were both 23 metre steel monocoques, yes. However, they were completely different projects with different construction and design. Also, the Cl156 was built first with the Mk4s following after.

 

[edwin_m]

In the sense that they were both 23 metre steel monocoques, yes. However, they were completely different projects with different construction and design. Also, the Cl156 was built first with the Mk4s following after.

Same designers though, so I would have expected them to modify what they had rather than starting from scratch. The window layout also has some similarities, such as the pair of small windows near one end. I was going by various writings of Roger Ford who appears to have had quite good insight into those projects.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well there's only so many ways you can design and build a coach body to what would have been the same loading standards, so it would be reasonable to suggest that they used broadly similar design and construction methods for both builds. However, that is different from saying that there is a direct line of heritage from one design to the next.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good point - was it usual for motorial trains to be with seated carriages - as the nicely reliveried Mk1s in that set. I had always thought they were largely sleepers plus car carriers. Were their day time Motorail services at that point in the 80s?

Yep, as well as what others have said, I’m fairly sure there was a daytime Euston - Scotland Motorail at some point, possibly into the 90s.

 

[jfollows]

Yep, as well as what others have said, I’m fairly sure there was a daytime Euston - Scotland Motorail at some point, possibly into the 90s.

1S01 11:18 Euston to Stirling, E595, TTHSO UNTIL 27 SEP in the 1986 timetable. Overtaken at Rugby (12*25 - 12*30) by 1F22 11:30 Euston-Liverpool Lime Street, SL at Milford & Brocton to Crewe 13:49 to 13:55, overtaken by 1S69 11:45 Euston-Glasgow (dep. Crewe 13:51).
1M69 11:30 Stirling to London Euston, E595, MWFO UNTIL 26 SEP, NOT 12 MAY, 15:58-16:00 Crewe then FL all the way to London Euston 18:15
(From my timetable showing all class 1 trains Euston-Crewe in 1986, I think extracted from a CA working timetable which was loaned to me at the time.)

EDIT - for those unfamiliar, E595 relates to the timing load, and from a similar working timetable it looks like there's no difference in the weight allowed for E595 (E600 in the extract here) regardless of type of electric locomotive, but for the more regular E455 timing (used at the time for the majority of express services) there's a limit of 9 coaches (315 tonnes) for class 81-85 versus 13 coaches for classes 86 & 87, plus no 86/0 for the faster trains allowed in theory. (This extract from the 1977 CM working timetable covering the South Manchester area.)

 

[WesternLancer]

1S01 11:18 Euston to Stirling, E595, TTHSO UNTIL 27 SEP in the 1986 timetable. Overtaken at Rugby (12*25 - 12*30) by 1F22 11:30 Euston-Liverpool Lime Street, SL at Milford & Brocton to Crewe 13:49 to 13:55, overtaken by 1S69 11:45 Euston-Glasgow (dep. Crewe 13:51).
1M69 11:30 Stirling to London Euston, E595, MWFO UNTIL 26 SEP, NOT 12 MAY, 15:58-16:00 Crewe then FL all the way to London Euston 18:15
(From my timetable showing all class 1 trains Euston-Crewe in 1986, I think extracted from a CA working timetable which was loaned to me at the time.)

Thanks - interesting info

 

[Strathclyder]

Hence the 'Roarer' nickname for Classes 81-85!

Indeed, possibly the most apt nickname for them!

Just came across this, which may be of interest to some here. The Class 80 prototype at Coatbridge's Sunnyside Junction during OHLE tests prior to the introduction of the Blue Trains, c.1959/60.

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » e20001 at sunnyside jn coatbridge

www.scot-rail.co.uk

 

[Inversnecky]

Screecher sounds more like it!

 

[Whistler40145]

Were Class 84s when fit focused on Freight rather than passenger trains?

 

[hexagon789]

Were Class 84s when fit focused on Freight rather than passenger trains?

Seemed to be quite common on freight and some parcels duties, possibly BR didn't feel it could trust them on passenger work?

 

[Helvellyn]

Were Class 84s when fit focused on Freight rather than passenger trains?

Seemed to be quite common on freight and some parcels duties, possibly BR didn't feel it could trust them on passenger work?

It was mentioned above that the 83s and 84s were reinstated to provide additional locomotives to supplement the 87s once electrification was extended North from Weaver Junction to Glasgow. With a fleet of 230+ electric locomotives BR could use the smaller fleets where it felt they were best suited, e.g. the 81s moved North to be based at Glasgow Shields.

The 84s were also the first class to be withdrawn in mass from the late 1970s so that would indicate they were the least reliable so utilising them on secondary traffic makes sense.