The AC Electrics: Classes 80-85, 86, 87

[Ken H]

It was mentioned above that the 83s and 84s were reinstated to provide additional locomotives to supplement the 87s once electrification was extended North from Weaver Junction to Glasgow. With a fleet of 230+ electric locomotives BR could use the smaller fleets where it felt they were best suited, e.g. the 81s moved North to be based at Glasgow Shields.

The 84s were also the first class to be withdrawn in mass from the late 1970s so that would indicate they were the least reliable so utilising them on secondary traffic makes sense.

were not some 81-84 locos uses as ECS locos to take stock from the carriage sidings into Euston and Glasgow? maybe Liverpool as well. The one at Euston spent so much time in the carriage washer the paint job was badly faded!

 

[hexagon789]

It was mentioned above that the 83s and 84s were reinstated to provide additional locomotives to supplement the 87s once electrification was extended North from Weaver Junction to Glasgow. With a fleet of 230+ electric locomotives BR could use the smaller fleets where it felt they were best suited, e.g. the 81s moved North to be based at Glasgow Shields.

The 84s were also the first class to be withdrawn in mass from the late 1970s so that would indicate they were the least reliable so utilising them on secondary traffic makes sense.

Well they did two major rebuilds to try and 'fix' the class and they still didn't behave themselves. The 81s and 85s seemed the best lot of the five 'roarer' classes

were not some 81-84 locos uses as ECS locos to take stock from the carriage sidings into Euston and Glasgow? maybe Liverpool as well. The one at Euston spent so much time in the carriage washer the paint job was badly faded!

Yes and officially limited to 40mph iirc. I think there was just one but I forget the class and loco number

 

[jfollows]

Yes and officially limited to 40mph iirc. I think there was just one but I forget the class and loco number

82005 and 82008 per "The AC Electrics" book mentioned earlier. Used between Wembley and Euston until 1987 following withdrawal of the other members of the class in 1982-83.
82008 is now preserved and more details are at https://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/index.php/the-locomotives-summary/82008-e3054

 

[Strathclyder]

were not some 81-84 locos uses as ECS locos to take stock from the carriage sidings into Euston and Glasgow? maybe Liverpool as well. The one at Euston spent so much time in the carriage washer the paint job was badly faded!

Yep. At least for the ECS duties in/out of Euston, the order of classes used went something like this (open to be corrected here): 2 82s from 1983 to 1987 (82005/008, with a 3rd loco, 82003, being retained for spare parts), 3 83s from 1983 to 1988 (83012/015 were used initially; a 3rd example, 83009, later saw use), a total of 4 81s from 1988 to July 1991 (81002 & 81004 were used initially, being replaced in 1990 by 81012 & 81017) & 3 85s from July to December 1991 (85101 & 85040 to start with, later joined by 85113).

At least 2 other 85s saw dedicated use on ECS duties elsewhere in 1991: 85018 in/out of Manchester Piccadilly & 85110 in/out of Liverpool Lime St. Here is a video of 018 at Piccadilly on such duties from September that year (from the Mr C's footage YT channel).

 

[hexagon789]

82005 and 82008 per "The AC Electrics" book mentioned earlier. Used between Wembley and Euston until 1987 following withdrawal of the other members of the class in 1982-83.
82008 is now preserved and more details are at https://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/index.php/the-locomotives-summary/82008-e3054

Cheers. Both restricted to 40 as I thought?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good point - was it usual for motorial trains to be with seated carriages - as the nicely reliveried Mk1s in that set. I had always thought they were largely sleepers plus car carriers. Were their day time Motorail services at that point in the 80s?

In the early 70s, I had a run on the Newton-le-Willows-St Austell day motorail service.
It had full catering (breakfast, lunch and tea, with coffee delivered to your compartment (Mk1 corridor coaches, 1 compartment per family) between times.
Class 47 throughout, via the Marches and Severn Tunnel, re-manned at Bristol.

Another time I did Crewe-Stirling, returning from Inverness, all daytime in Mk1 compartments (with unused sleepers in the formation for the return trip).
Same setup.
Brilliant service, but no doubt hopelessly uneconomic.
The "northern" service went from Newton initially, then Crewe, then Birmingham International (West Mids previously had its own service, I think from Sutton Coldfield), and was then axed.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the early 70s, I had a run on the Newton-le-Willows-St Austell day motorail service.
It had full catering (breakfast, lunch and tea, with coffee delivered to your compartment (Mk1 corridor coaches, 1 compartment per family) between times.
Class 47 throughout, via the Marches and Severn Tunnel, re-manned at Bristol.

Another time I did Crewe-Stirling, returning from Inverness, all daytime in Mk1 compartments (with unused sleepers in the formation for the return trip).
Same setup.
Brilliant service, but no doubt hopelessly uneconomic.
The "northern" service went from Newton initially, then Crewe, then Birmingham International (West Mids previously had its own service, I think from Sutton Coldfield), and was then axed.

sounds very civilised! And the benefit of missing 1970s era M-way services catering too
Did you take your car? I assume you did of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

The "northern" service went from Newton initially, then Crewe, then Birmingham International (West Mids previously had its own service, I think from Sutton Coldfield), and was then axed.

Bham International? How did they load the cars?

 

[CW2]

When I moved to work in Glasgow in 1984 I recall there was a very popular diagram involving the Motorail services from / to Stirling. A loco off Motherwell would go light to Stirling then work the Stirling to Kensington Motorail to Mossend, where the train would re-engine for a Roarer. The diesel would then run light engine to Carstairs to re-engine the 09:30 Liverpool to Edinburgh, 13:03 ex Carstairs. That loco and stock would then work back to Carstairs as the 16:10 to Liverpool. At Carstairs the diesel would await the arrival of the Kensington Olympia to Stirling Motorail, which would re-engine middle road. Why they chose to do this on the curve on the main line at Carstairs instead of on the straight and level at Mossend I could never fathom out. The incoming Roarer would hook off and disappear north, and the Motorail would then be diesel worked from Carstairs to Stirling, light engine back to Motherwell, and finish.

The whole performance was booked to be worked by a class 47 - presumably one of Eastfield's allocation. In practice, this was the period when the miners strike was in full swing, and no coal trains were running, so there were plenty of locos sitting around without work. So if no 47 was available then one of Motherwell's finest no-heat 37s would put in an appearance on the diagram.

I did once cadge a ride on the Motorail from Carstairs to Stirling. I recorded the load as 7 coaches + 12 carflats. I didn't record how full it was. (The loco was 37117).

 

[Inversnecky]

Came across some diagrams of these, as well as other electrics:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_ELO_274_JP_web.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_MT26_n1_web.pdf

A whole library here:

Barrowmore Model Railway Group (BMRG)

 

[hexagon789]

Came across some diagrams of these, as well as other electrics:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_ELO_274_JP_web.pdf

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Locos/Book_MT26_n1_web.pdf

A whole library here:

Barrowmore Model Railway Group (BMRG)

They also have scans of the technical papers for the original 25kV electrification, the early 25kV/6.25kV EMUs and the AL1-5 locomotives on their site as well. You can find the papers by clicking the electrification 'flashes' symbol button.

 

[Inversnecky]

They also have scans of the technical papers for the original 25kV electrification, the early 25kV/6.25kV EMUs and the AL1-5 locomotives on their site as well. You can find the papers by clicking the electrification 'flashes' symbol button.

Thanks, I didn’t notice that. There’s a wealth of information on that site.

 

[Taunton]

In the early 70s, I had a run on the Newton-le-Willows-St Austell day motorail service.
It had full catering (breakfast, lunch and tea, with coffee delivered to your compartment (Mk1 corridor coaches, 1 compartment per family) between times.
Class 47 throughout, via the Marches and Severn Tunnel, re-manned at Bristol.

We did the same, in 1966, similar style, to Newton Abbot. I've mentioned it here once or twice previously and mean to do a better write up of it all. Being 1966 we (plus family car) were steam hauled the first two miles, by a Warrington Black 5 sent specially, from Newton-le-Willows to Earlestown west junction, to get the train pointing the right way. Am I the only one here whose family car was steam hauled? Avoided Bristol TM by using the goods loop round by the Rhubarb Loop and St Philips Marsh, despite being fully familiar with it from landside that's the only time I've travelled over it. Passing through Taunton (at speed), was told by parents to cower beneath the window in case grandparents spotted us passing through .

Sorry, nothing to do with electric locos. We saw them briefly just at Crewe.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, I didn’t notice that. There’s a wealth of information on that site.

Indeed, quite the variety of items if interest. There's also a good write-up on electric motors - how they work and how the various methods of control differ

 

[Inversnecky]

AC under DC

Class 83 E3098 is hauled by Class 76 26053 passing Dunford East on 2nd June 1971 as 8Z30 1230 Bury to Doncaster Works.

25kV electric on Woodhead Line

Class 83 E3098 is hauled by Class 76 26053 passing Dunford East on 2nd June 1971 as 8Z30 1230 Bury to Doncaster Works. Photo details Colour Slide scan Agfa 35mm 64ASA Camera Yashica Electro 35mm. Ref No 01339.

www.flickr.com

Some more photos of ACs:

Photos of AC electrics

Good morning, There are lots of brilliant "photos of..." threads on here so thought I would start one on AC electrics which hasn't been covered yet...I think! Feel free to add photos from the electric blue days to today. Here is a couple from my collection to kick things off. Both taken in the la...

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[d9009alycidon]

In the summer of 1980 I had a great job working in the drawing office at BSC Clydesdale and my desk overlooked Mossend South Junction. I recorded every loco I saw at that location and the electric locos I saw were as follows
Class 81 every loco except 008, 16 &18
Class 82003, 4 6, 7 & 8 (2 missing)
Class 83005, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 & 13 ( 6 missing)
Class 84003 & 10, (1 missing)
Class 85, all bar 002, 16, 17, 21 and 25.
Class 86, 51 examples
Class 87, every loco except 87017. Total are as per the active fleet at that time.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bham International? How did they load the cars?

I don't know the answer to that one, as I only used Newton/Crewe.
As services were trimmed back year on year, they concentrated at fewer sites and I think BHI was the final attempt for the north/midlands market.
There's a 1981 Motorail brochure on this site with BHI departures.
Andy Gibbs - British Rail through the 1970's and 80's. | 1981 Motorail (zenfolio.com)

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know the answer to that one, as I only used Newton/Crewe.
As services were trimmed back year on year, they concentrated at fewer sites and I think BHI was the final attempt for the north/midlands market.
There's a 1981 Motorail brochure on this site with BHI departures.
Andy Gibbs - British Rail through the 1970's and 80's. | 1981 Motorail (zenfolio.com)

Brilliant!

It also explains the economics of Motorail, and how the market has changed.

Family of four in an estate car, weekend return London - Inverness between May and September, that will be £1200 in real terms, please.

 

[Whistler40145]

I know classes 81, 85, 86 and 87 were the most reliable, but from classes 82, 83 and 84, which were the most unreliable?

 

[Merle Haggard]

ca 1974 onwards. loco diagrams were split between '81/85' and '82-82-84'; the operators, over-ruled by the marketing people to provide a loco-hauled Northampton service, ensured that it was diagrammed for the 'second IX' to prove the point. On one occasion on the down (evening) service, the first 84 got as far as Willesden before failing; after considerable delay Willesden provided a replacement; another 84. This lost power in the Tring area, but took advantage of the falling grade (and possibly a little residual power) to coast to Bletchley, slower and slower. Two loco failures in 30 miles.
The most spectacular failure was when another 84 had what was described in the log as a 'major earth fault'. On this occasion, in the dark depths of the winter, one felt a snatch down the train as the loco suddenly lost power. This was accompanied by North London, as far as one could see, being briefly illuminated by a dazzling blue flash of light...

 

[david1212]

Good point - was it usual for motorial trains to be with seated carriages - as the nicely reliveried Mk1s in that set. I had always thought they were largely sleepers plus car carriers. Were their day time Motorail services at that point in the 80s?

Back between 1974 and 1981 we used Motorail from the midlands to Scotland serveral times and all overnight. Mostly to Inverness but at least twice Perth or Stirling. Aberdeen was only available from Euston and maybe York I recall. Initially from Crewe and once we returned to York but later, and far more convenient, Birmingham International where side loaded / unloaded onto the platform.

Haulage was electric to / from Carstairs (?) then diesel.

To your question the first time we had a seated compartment. Blankets and pillows were provided. Subsequently though Dad paid the additional cost of sleeper berths.

 

[WesternLancer]

Back between 1974 and 1981 we used Motorail from the midlands to Scotland serveral times and all overnight. Mostly to Inverness but at least twice Perth or Stirling. Aberdeen was only available from Euston and maybe York I recall. Initially from Crewe and once we returned to York but later, and far more convenient, Birmingham International where side loaded / unloaded onto the platform.

Haulage was electric to / from Carstairs (?) then diesel.

To your question the first time we had a seated compartment. Blankets and pillows were provided. Subsequently though Dad paid the additional cost of sleeper berths.

Interesting to read - so even if overnight on motorail you could choose (subject to payment) seated carriages or sleepers. I was certainly unaware of that. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Inversnecky]

We never used motorail, but in the late 1970s did use the sleeper service a few times from Inverness to Euston, either for a break in London, or to fly to elsewhere.

At that time, there were fewer options for Scottish people to fly abroad from here, we we had to take the train etc to London mainly to get flights onwards.

Likely the increasing flight options from Scotland helped contribute to the demise of sleeper services.

ca 1974 onwards. loco diagrams were split between '81/85' and '82-82-84'; the operators, over-ruled by the marketing people to provide a loco-hauled Northampton service, ensured that it was diagrammed for the 'second IX' to prove the point. On one occasion on the down (evening) service, the first 84 got as far as Willesden before failing; after considerable delay Willesden provided a replacement; another 84. This lost power in the Tring area, but took advantage of the falling grade (and possibly a little residual power) to coast to Bletchley, slower and slower. Two loco failures in 30 miles.
The most spectacular failure was when another 84 had what was described in the log as a 'major earth fault'. On this occasion, in the dark depths of the winter, one felt a snatch down the train as the loco suddenly lost power. This was accompanied by North London, as far as one could see, being briefly illuminated by a dazzling blue flash of light...

A pretty devastating indictment on the poor old 84....

 

[Whistler40145]

We never used motorail, but in the late 1970s did use the sleeper service a few times from Inverness to Euston, either for a break in London, or to fly to elsewhere.

At that time, there were fewer options for Scottish people to fly abroad from here, we we had to take the train etc to London mainly to get flights onwards.

Likely the increasing flight options from Scotland helped contribute to the demise of sleeper services.



A pretty devastating indictment on the poor old 84....

It’s not surprising that Class 84s made rare appearances on top link InterCity services

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s not surprising that Class 84s made rare appearances on top link InterCity services

Occurs to me to wonder - did any other NBL locos outlive the Class 84 in operational service?

 

[Richard Scott]

Occurs to me to wonder - did any other NBL locos outlive the Class 84 in operational service?

8Fs in Turkey?

 

[Mag_seven]

It’s not surprising that Class 84s made rare appearances on top link InterCity services

I remember travelling on a relief train (origin Euston) from Carlisle to Glasgow in the summer of 81. Unfortunaly I didn't take numbers then so I'll never know if it was hauled by a class 82-84.

 

[tbwbear]

ca 1974 onwards. loco diagrams were split between '81/85' and '82-82-84'; the operators, over-ruled by the marketing people to provide a loco-hauled Northampton service, ensured that it was diagrammed for the 'second IX' to prove the point. On one occasion on the down (evening) service, the first 84 got as far as Willesden before failing; after considerable delay Willesden provided a replacement; another 84. This lost power in the Tring area, but took advantage of the falling grade (and possibly a little residual power) to coast to Bletchley, slower and slower. Two loco failures in 30 miles.
The most spectacular failure was when another 84 had what was described in the log as a 'major earth fault'. On this occasion, in the dark depths of the winter, one felt a snatch down the train as the loco suddenly lost power. This was accompanied by North London, as far as one could see, being briefly illuminated by a dazzling blue flash of light...

Interesting !

So, is this a reasonable analysis of how the various locomotives were diagrammed ?

It is just a guess - correct me please

1) 1959-1967 (until completion of the first WCML scheme / delivery of all 100 86s) = Classes "81-86" all diagrammed together from same pool? -

2) 1967-1971 = Classes "81+82?+85+86" diagrammed together - Class "83+4" stored

3) 1971-1974 = (from introduction of air conditioned coaches/ split of Class 86) Class "86/2", - "86/0" - "81+82?+ 85" together also with Classes 83+4 back eventually

4) 1974 on = Separate diagrams for "87+ 86/1 + 86/2" - "86/0" - and as you suggest "81+85" - "82+83+84"

Was it something like that ?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Interesting !

So, is this a reasonable analysis of how the various locomotives were diagrammed ?

It is just a guess - correct me please

1) 1959-1967 (until completion of the first WCML scheme / delivery of all 100 86s) = Classes "81-86" all diagrammed together from same pool? -

2) 1967-1971 = Classes "81+82?+85+86" diagrammed together - Class "83+4" stored

3) 1971-1974 = (from introduction of air conditioned coaches/ split of Class 86) Class "86/2", - "86/0" - "81+82?+ 85" together also with Classes 83+4 back eventually

4) 1974 on = Separate diagrams for "87+ 86/1 + 86/2" - "86/0" - and as you suggest "81+85" - "82+83+84"

Was it something like that ?

I think so, but I'm not absolutely sure that the 82s were diagrammed with the 83s and 84s, it might have been 81/2/5 and 83/4.
The 82/AL2s were once highly regarded; when I worked on the accident section E3046 burnt out at Denbigh Hall on an up express (winter '70-'71) after being continuously driven rather hard. I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember the Divisional M&EE saying that only an AL2 could have been going that well - running late and making up time on a heavy train. I think that there was no electrical overload protection, just relying on the driver not to stay in the red on the ammeter for longer than laid down in an instruction, but that's only my recollection.

 

[tbwbear]

I think so, but I'm not absolutely sure that the 82s were diagrammed with the 83s and 84s, it might have been 81/2/5 and 83/4.
The 82/AL2s were once highly regarded; when I worked on the accident section E3046 burnt out at Denbigh Hall on an up express (winter '70-'71) after being continuously driven rather hard. I don't remember the exact details, but I do remember the Divisional M&EE saying that only an AL2 could have been going that well - running late and making up time on a heavy train. I think that there was no electrical overload protection, just relying on the driver not to stay in the red on the ammeter for longer than laid down in an instruction, but that's only my recollection.

That is also interesting and it would make sense as the 82s were never stored OOU like the 83s and 84s were they? Just unlucky to lose 2 members of a class of just 10 including E3046 as you mention.