The impact of the new EMR timetable on journeys from Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough to London

[JonathanH]

That's why TL should be limited to the SL.

How? All TL trains running all stops at 5 minute intervals, maybe less?

Get the EMR connect to additionally call at St Albans if you really have to

Nowhere near enough capacity for St Albans with the EMR Connect service as the only fast.

Thameslink criss-crossing on and off the fast lines is a joke and wastes capacity.

Criss-crossing Thameslink trains uses the tracks to the maximum capacity possible.

I see GWR have severely reduced the amount of semi fast trains switching to and from relief lines.

Maidenhead and Twyford are the only relevant stations and they are a lot smaller than St Albans and Luton.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's why TL should be limited to the SL.

That would be a significant reduction in capacity.

Thameslink criss-crossing on and off the fast lines is a joke and wastes capacity.

On the contrary, it makes use of capacity that would otherwise be wasted, to provide well over a hundred million pounds of income to the railway. And, also, it does so largely without affecting the EMR trains when running to time (which it does, in the main).

 

[Railperf]

That would be a significant reduction in capacity.


On the contrary, it makes use of capacity that would otherwise be wasted, to provide well over a hundred million pounds of income to the railway. And, also, it does so largely without affecting the EMR trains when running to time (which it does, in the main)

I'm convinced that if this were being run by a single operator, a way would be found to better balance providing a faster service to Leicester and Sheffield without having slower trains criss-crossing onto the main line adding several minutes to the schdule in the process with as high risk of delay minutes when things go wrong. If hundreds of millions of pounds are coming in as claimed, why aren't we investing in grade seperation to improve the traffic flows at West Hampstead and at Harpenden.

There is nothing mnore frsutarting for the Intercity traveller for their train to be frequently slowing down south of Bedford because it is catching up slower trains in front or having to come to a halt because a train is crossing its path ahead.

Why were millions spent on raising speed limits to 110mph Crickelwood to Elstree and 125mph on to St Albans with some 115mph on towards Harpenden when in reality, the trains may as well stick to 90-95mph max on that stretch, because TL is limited to 100mph and the even slower average speeds negiotiating those junctions. Probably the only section of OLE worth upgrading for higher speeds is from Harpenden towards Bedford - forget the section south of Harpenden.

Someone has said the Sheffield and Nottingham timings are now unmovable due to the TL and Corby's ahead and behind, so what caapcity is there now to run additional services in future? Is the MML now be at capacity south of Harpenden? It does concern me that the infrastructure can just about cope with todays service pattern. Never mind any future improvements.

 

[JonathanH]

what caapcity is there now to run additional services in future

The next step would be running 10-car 810 formations on as many EMR services as possible, not running more of them (and ultimately diverting Sheffield / East Midlands passengers to HS2). Would there ever be a need for more than 4tph from St Pancras to Leicester? Remember that many of today's EMR services only have five cars. A slowing around St Albans isn't the end of the world in a two hour journey, any more than slow running around Welwyn and Peterborough on non-stop trains on the East Coast is.

 

[Mugby]

The next step would be running 10-car 810 formations on as many EMR services as possible, not running more of them (and ultimately diverting Sheffield / East Midlands passengers to HS2). Would there ever be a need for more than 4tph from St Pancras to Leicester? Remember that many of today's EMR services only have five cars. A slowing around St Albans isn't the end of the world in a two hour journey, any more than slow running around Welwyn and Peterborough on non-stop trains on the East Coast is.

When the order for 810s was announced it was said that 'They will almost always run in pairs' - believe that when it happens!

 

[jdcg]

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but with the daily train to and from St Pancras from Melton Mowbray now cut back to Kettering, what stock is being used?

 

[Watershed]

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but with the daily train to and from St Pancras from Melton Mowbray now cut back to Kettering, what stock is being used?

There are two trains per day each way between Melton Mowbray and St Pancras.

One to London in the morning and back in the evening, which joins/splits with a Nottingham service at Kettering (I think that may be what you were thinking of).

Then another one that doesn't split. It comes up from London around lunchtime and, after running empty to and reversing at Syston, returns to London. That's an extension of one of the Corby services.

All of these services are operated by Meridians.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm convinced that if this were being run by a single operator, a way would be found to better balance providing a faster service to Leicester and Sheffield without having slower trains criss-crossing onto the main line adding several minutes to the schdule

But the EMRs don’t have ‘several minutes’ added in pathing, at least not in the standard off peak hour. Northbound standard hour there is no (or very little) pathing time south of Bedford on the down services, and a sprinkling of half minutes in some, but not all, up services. Some times there is pathing time awaiting platform at St Pancras.

If hundreds of millions of pounds are coming in as claimed, why aren't we investing in grade seperation to improve the traffic flows at West Hampstead and at Harpenden.

Because it’s not needed.

There is nothing mnore frsutarting for the Intercity traveller for their train to be frequently slowing down south of Bedford because it is catching up slower trains in front

Nothing? How about there being no train at all?

Someone has said the Sheffield and Nottingham timings are now unmovable due to the TL and Corby's ahead and behind, so what caapcity is there now to run additional services in future?

None.

Is the MML now be at capacity south of Harpenden?

Yes, and it has been in the peak since 2018.

 

[Watershed]

what caapcity is there now to run additional services in future? Is the MML now be at capacity south of Harpenden? It does concern me that the infrastructure can just about cope with todays service pattern. Never mind any future improvements.

That almost sounds as if you are suggesting that EMR's 6th train per hour shouldn't have been introduced, just to leave some spare capacity on the line. It obviously sounds absurd if you put it that way, but what else would you propose to be done?

There is a limit to the capacity that can be squeezed out of a given stretch of line, particularly when you are mixing 100mph and 125mph traffic, with flat, single lead junctions and crossovers.

That that limit it's only been reached now, when the signalling and layout has remained essentially unchanged for the last 35-40 years, speaks volumes as to the foresight of BR!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of 100 vs 110mph, given that the 700s are Desiros and the WCML Desiros have been uprated to 110, surely it would also be possible to uprate the 700s the same once the OHLE was upgraded and eke out that bit of extra capacity as a result?

 

[stuu]

That's why TL should be limited to the SL. Get the EMR connect to additionally call at St Albans if you really have to, but switch EMR Connect onto the SL immediately North of Bedford. You might slow down the Corby time slightly, but at least you clear the mainline for the faster services. Thameslink criss-crossing on and off the fast lines is a joke and wastes capacity. I see GWR have severely reduced the amount of semi fast trains switching to and from relief lines.

If looked at from a coldly rational viewpoint based on passenger numbers and revenue, the EMR services are the least important, there would be more justification in stopping them in Bedford and making everyone change. The reverse is true on the GWML. I'm not proposing that but it would be more logical than restricting TL to the slows

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There is nothing mnore frsutarting for the Intercity traveller for their train to be frequently slowing down south of Bedford because it is catching up slower trains in front or having to come to a halt because a train is crossing its path ahead.

What you are suggesting just moves the problem for the travellers to Leagrave and Flitwick where they will catch up a slower train in front.

Presumably you’d accept that to create the necessary capacity for these extra TL trains on the slow lines the slow freight trains would need moving onto the fast lines?

The MML is a mixed traffic railway, the fast lines aren’t just there for 6tph EMR services.

 

[2192]

The next step would be running 10-car 810 formations on as many EMR services as possible, not running more of them (and ultimately diverting Sheffield / East Midlands passengers to HS2). Would there ever be a need for more than 4tph from St Pancras to Leicester? Remember that many of today's EMR services only have five cars...

More 10 car trains would of course carry more passengers, but it could cause problems at St Pancras, as you could no longer stack two trains in the same platform.

 

[JonathanH]

More 10 car trains would of course carry more passengers, but it could cause problems at St Pancras, as you could no longer stack two trains in the same platform.

Does the timetable still require stacking at St Pancras?

Isn't it written around Corby electrics having sole use of platform 1 and there never needing to be more than three platforms used for Nottingham and the only 'stacking' being when a 10-car inbound train forms two 5-car services out with another going to Cricklewood?

 

[Watershed]

More 10 car trains would of course carry more passengers, but it could cause problems at St Pancras, as you could no longer stack two trains in the same platform.

The ability to split and join at the constrained St Pancras terminus was one of the key drivers of EMR choosing shorter units rather than the 9 coach units that GWR & LNER went for. Quite understandable - however, it has the unfortunate side effect of requiring a lot of extra staff if you want both units to be fully crewed. It also inconveniences passengers, particularly for SDO stations and on busy trains, as you can't walk through the train.

 

[talltim]

Having read these posts, I understand the reasons why and the new timetable is a large improvement for the majority of EMR's customers.

But I find it absolutely amazing that what used to be an easy one change journey for me (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Derby) is now a 3 change journey (Flitwick <> Bedford <> Kettering <> Leicester <> Derby)

A single change journey I used to make regularly also now seems to be a three change journey. Harpenden-Chesterfield and/or return. It also seems to be considerably slower although I can’t remember the previous times.
I might have done two changes, but three changes I’d definitely drive

 

[Bald Rick]

Talking of 100 vs 110mph, given that the 700s are Desiros and the WCML Desiros have been uprated to 110, surely it would also be possible to uprate the 700s the same once the OHLE was upgraded and eke out that bit of extra capacity as a result?

110mph for the 700s would make no difference to capacity. It would save perhaps 10-20 seconds south of Harpenden, and that assumes the extra speed doesn’t cause a loss of lower speed acceleration.

 

[Railperf]

Talking of 100 vs 110mph, given that the 700s are Desiros and the WCML Desiros have been uprated to 110, surely it would also be possible to uprate the 700s the same once the OHLE was upgraded and eke out that bit of extra capacity as a result?

It would help slightly, but most time is lost slowing down for the crossover from FL to SL. There is approach control ordered by the signalling if the route has been set, and slower speeds negotiating the turnouts - 50 or 70mph IIRC.
If the route is not set - possibly due to a late running train on the up, the TL gets checked more severely, and that increases the chance that an EMR service behind - 3 min headway - will start to see caution signals and have to reduce speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

110mph for the 700s would make no difference to capacity. It would save perhaps 10-20 seconds south of Harpenden, and that assumes the extra speed doesn’t cause a loss of lower speed acceleration.

Interesting, how does it create paths on the WCML but not on the MML?

 

[Railperf]

Interesting, how does it create paths on the WCML but not on the MML?

There's not much time difference between Euston and Watford Junction on average. But the 350's run all the way to Crewe - 158 miles - mostly on the fast lines except where they diverge on to the slow lines for Trent Valley stops. So running at 110mph vs 100mph on the appropriate sections starts saving several minutes, and creates an additional train path.
Thameslink is mainly using the MML fast lines between West Hampstead and Harpenden Jn, - so approx 20 miles max.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's not much time difference between Euston and Watford Junction on average. But the 350's run all the way to Crewe - 158 miles - mostly on the fast lines except where hey diverge on to the slow lines for Trent Valley stops. So running at 110mph vs 100mph on the appropriate sections starts saving several minutes, and creates an additional train path.

Thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting, how does it create paths on the WCML but not on the MML?

It’s 3 seconds a mile once you’ve got to 110mph. The 700s are just not on the fast lines long enough to make a difference. 17 miles on the down Hendon* - Harpenden Jn, with a St Albans call on the way, and on the Upmost services only go fast line at Radlett, so it’s 8 miles.

*Althouh the 110 starts at Cricklewood, there is a 105 restriction at Hendon; because the 700s are either accelerating up the hill from West Hampstead or have stopped there it is unlikely they would be much above 105mph before that restriction - in reality they wouldn’t reach 110 till well north of Hendon.

 

[Railperf]

The 700s don't have any speed hold/cruise control - so usually running closer to 95mph.

 

[jdcg]

There are two trains per day each way between Melton Mowbray and St Pancras.

One to London in the morning and back in the evening, which joins/splits with a Nottingham service at Kettering (I think that may be what you were thinking of).

Then another one that doesn't split. It comes up from London around lunchtime and, after running empty to and reversing at Syston, returns to London. That's an extension of one of the Corby services.

All of these services are operated by Meridians.

Thanks for this reply. I've been looking for these trains in the EMR app and the National Rail app. No mention of the lunchtime train anywhere and the in both apps the evening train is only listed as starting from Kettering.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for this reply. I've been looking for these trains in the EMR app and the National Rail app. No mention of the lunchtime train anywhere and the in both apps the evening train is only listed as starting from Kettering.

The Apps aren’t dealing with splitting correctly, which isn’t unusual. They see the detached portion as a different train. The detailed view from realtimetrains shows exactly what’s happening:

Realtime Trains - 1D99 1835 St Pancras International to Nottingham

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But it also seems to me the evening train split is not shown well in the main timetable pdf, (compared to the southbound join), and on departure from St Pancras it ought to be described as to Nottingham and Melton Mowbray.

 

[Merle Haggard]

On the 360 thread (a discussion that was totally relevant to 360s but veered off) I pointed out the curious way NRES treats the evening up Melton train. Passengers joining it at Corby for London it are shown as having to change at Kettering (onto an up Nottingham train, which is the one that attaches to the Melton train there) whereas, for Melton to London passengers, it's shown as a through train.

I'm surprised that NRES can't cope with portion working on the MML as it copes fine everywhere else, as far as I have used it.

 

[bramling]

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere, but with the daily train to and from St Pancras from Melton Mowbray now cut back to Kettering, what stock is being used?

The morning trip is a 4-car 222 which joins to a 5-car at Kettering. This divides at St Pancras, with the 4-car doing the Melton and back.

The evening journey leaves St Pancras as a 10-car 222, with the 5-car detaching at Kettering.

 

[Aictos]

As to Wellingborough moaning about the reduction of services and old clapped out trains from the 90s, they've never had it so good with longer greener trains, more frequent services all day and more seats compared to the previous offering.

Going from 1tph formed of 5 coaches to 2tph formed of 8 coaches (12 in peak if they go ahead) with easier connections at Kettering for those wishing to go further plus a more clockface TT is nothing to be sneezed at.

As to their comments about old clapped out trains from the 90s, since when has the early 2000s been in the 90s?

I see they're also moaning about ticket prices saying it's more expensive to do Kettering to Bedford then Bedford to Brighton saying it's only £2 to travel to Brighton and £7.95 to travel to Bedford clearly not noticing that the £2 flat fare is for children and that for adults it's nowhere near that cheap.

On a more positive note, one of the two? purple EMR Connect Class 360s was out and about today.

 

[Railperf]

Having sampled the service today - here are a few initial thoughts: The early afternoon trains are hardly used - just a handful of passengers. Kettering seemed to be the busiest station - possibly passengers getting off the Intercity services for intermediate stations towards Luton?
IS there a case for reducing to 4-car for now - especially off-peak?
The 360's interiors are filthy - really grubby with dust and dirt where it shouldn't be considering how much time they have had to be cleaned.. I would not want to post the pics on here or twitter. It is a disgrace. The 360's are a good unit - but needed a real deep clean if they were not refurbing them. That has not happened.
From a pollution perspective - i wonder how many tons of pollutants are being saved by omitting most stops between London and Kettering for 222's. It makes real green sense to use the 360's in this way.
I wonder how much fuel a 5-car 222 uses accelerating from rest to 125mph. That's a whole load of fuel savings too.

The additional luton stop, stopping at Wellingborough on the fast lines for down services does make the timetable very tight for the following services. I'd rather have the Corby slung over to the SL ASAP after Bedford, but i can see that isn't always practical as there is some freight on the SL too.
I see most down services corss to the SL immediately after Wellingboro but the odd one stays on the FL and crosses at Kettering S.
Up services seem to stay on the SL until Wellingboro, but the slow turnout speeds back on to the FL and subsequent slow turnout back into Bedford means the timings are not as quick as might be hoped for. The layouts and departure/arrival speeds at both stations seem to be a really inefficient use of the infrastructure.

The crossovers could have been higher speed - 70mph instead of 40/50mph to help clear the route more quickly.
I think EMR Intercity drivers on down services will likely start slowing down and running at lower average speeds to avoid catching the Corby. No need to thrash along and use the full 12mph capability South of Bedford.

One of the 360 pairs failed to exceed 100mph north of Bedford. The driver seemed to think it was a unit issue.

 

[Ianno87]

There's not much time difference between Euston and Watford Junction on average. But the 350's run all the way to Crewe - 158 miles - mostly on the fast lines except where they diverge on to the slow lines for Trent Valley stops. So running at 110mph vs 100mph on the appropriate sections starts saving several minutes, and creates an additional train path.
Thameslink is mainly using the MML fast lines between West Hampstead and Harpenden Jn, - so approx 20 miles max.

Thanks.

Pre-110mph, the xx46 at Euston wasn't quite minimum headway at MK in front of the xx00 departure, so the combination of 110mph running and reducing the headway at MK from 4/5 minutes to 3 minutes was enough to push the old xx46 departure back to xx49 without impeding the xx00.

Then the "new" xx46 was inserted in the path created, and the sustained run at 110mph over a longer distance (save for the MK and Rugby calls) is enough to get this (just) to Attleborough Jn in front of the xx00. It could not do this in the peak (when the xx57 additional service also operated), so had to go inside at Rugby to be overtaken those hours.


On the Up, the 110mph/125mph is less extreme due to Avanti generally having more allowances towards the end of their journeys.