The last coal train?

[Meerkat]

If a cooling tower, or towers, were to be preserved then Ironbridge would have been the place. What with it being a World Heritage site, saving a tower would have documented the industrial carbon age from the very beginning to the end. Unfortunately, and shortsightedly they got demolished.

I would say the preserved one should be in the Aire Valley, the area most famous for them. Are there any still visible from the main motorways that are a landmark?

 

[Sun Chariot]

The cooling tower located in central Slough, always looks incongruous

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say the preserved one should be in the Aire Valley, the area most famous for them. Are there any still visible from the main motorways that are a landmark?

Drax. (Accepting it‘s not strictly the Aire).

 

[Trainbike46]

I know they are a lot bigger than railway traction but they were a huge enabler to social change in the 20th century so a shame they can't keep one cooling tower as a symbol of our past heritage.

Keeping some cooling towers would be a really nice way to show some of our heritage - I wonder if you could make them part of a museum of some type, maybe on the industrial history/heritage of the area

If a cooling tower, or towers, were to be preserved then Ironbridge would have been the place. What with it being a World Heritage site, saving a tower would have documented the industrial carbon age from the very beginning to the end. Unfortunately, and shortsightedly they got demolished.

 

[Western Sunset]

In a way, those cooling towers were the cathedrals of the 20th century. I recall standing inside one at Ratcliffe and the smell was very pongy of fish.

 

[mac]

At 1530 today coal was producing 2.7% of the country's electricity and wind only 5.9%. How ever is wind going to power everything in winter?

 

[AlastairFraser]

At 1530 today coal was producing 2.7% of the country's electricity and wind only 5.9%. How ever is wind going to power everything in winter?

Off topic for a rail forum really, but massive pumped storage of power generated when it is windy/at night when demand is lower, plus imports from Norway/Netherlands/Belgium (we send power the other way when we have a surplus) and 5-10 baseload nuclear and gas power stations.

We have Dinorwig as our big pumped storage project at the moment, but an example of one that is being built is Coire Glas in Scotland (https://www.coireglas.com/project).

 

[Class 317]

At 1530 today coal was producing 2.7% of the country's electricity and wind only 5.9%. How ever is wind going to power everything in winter?

Coal was generating at a below market cost price today. Plenty of other generators that didn't want to produce at this price.
Basically stocks being used before closure.

 

[Trainbike46]

At 1530 today coal was producing 2.7% of the country's electricity and wind only 5.9%. How ever is wind going to power everything in winter?

So a wind low is more than double the coal high now!

Coal has been effectively negligible for power production in the UK for almost 10 years, but did play a decreasing role in security of supply. The reason this station is closing now is that it is no longer needed for security of supply, so has no role left in the power system.

Remember, picking a specific time isn't representative. Monthy averages show significant wind, and there are enough facilities to cover the gaps, including (pumped) hydro, battery storage, gas power stations, imports, etc.

 

[trainswitheddy]

I would say the preserved one should be in the Aire Valley, the area most famous for them. Are there any still visible from the main motorways that are a landmark?

I'd also argue for Megawatt valley along the trent but this is impossible since Cottam is mid demolition and West Burton has a certificate of immunity from preservation.

 

[Trainbike46]

a certificate of immunity from preservation.

sorry, what??

 

[mac]

So a wind low is more than double the coal high now!

Coal has been effectively negligible for power production in the UK for almost 10 years, but did play a decreasing role in security of supply. The reason this station is closing now is that it is no longer needed for security of supply, so has no role left in the power system.

Remember, picking a specific time isn't representative. Monthy averages show significant wind, and there are enough facilities to cover the gaps, including (pumped) hydro, battery storage, gas power stations, imports, etc.

But isn't wind going to have to produce 50% constantly and battery storage would need to cover Lincolnshire. Gas will also need to stop as it's also a fossil fuel

 

[Trainbike46]

But isn't wind going to have to produce 50% constantly and battery storage would need to cover Lincolnshire. Gas will also need to stop as it's also a fossil fuel

Over time gas will have to go, yes, but coal is no longer needed, which is why the final coal power station is closing at the end of this month.

More battery, solar, hydro, wind, and nuclear will be needed to get rid of gas by 2030/2035 (pick your favourite), much of which is already under construction, but more is needed. More connections are also needed to move electricity across the country

What do you mean by "Battery storage would need to cover Lincolnshire"? The system as a whole needs to produce enough electricity, provide grid stability, and have the connections to get it to the end users. That doesn't mean batteries would have to be in Lincolnshire to provide electricity there, though some battery storage facilities may well exist or be planned for Lincolnshire

 

[mac]

I meant that if we need battery storage for when we don't have wind which is often it would need to be big enough to cover an area the size of Lincolnshire

 

[jon0844]

I think we're a way off, but if more people buy home batteries and more EVs come with V2H (vehicle to home) then we can begin to look at more innovative ways of covering the high-demand periods, becoming less dependent on generation entirely.

Whether this, or any, Government can and will look into things like this - perhaps with incentives to get people to buy either, as well as get the necessary things done to be able to feed power into the network - remains to be seen. It's not going to be enough for a few 'nerds' to set it all up.

 

[Bald Rick]

But isn't wind going to have to produce 50% constantly and battery storage would need to cover Lincolnshire.

No, wind isnt going to have to be 50% constantly…

I meant that if we need battery storage for when we don't have wind which is often it would need to be big enough to cover an area the size of Lincolnshire

.. and no, battery storage would not need to be the size of Lincolnshire. There’s a 100MW / MWh battery facility at Richborough Park in Thanet, and that is 1.6 hectares, ie 16 hectares per GWh.

Scaled up to the size needed to power the UK for a week in winter assuming low wind, low solar, 75% import capacity on the connectors, existing biomass and nuclear generating at 90% (but not Hinckley point C), which between all of them would be generating 20GW vs a winter average demand of 35GW, we would need about 2,500 GWh of battery capacity, which would be 40,000 hectares.

That is 6% of Lincolnshire.

As a former resident of Lincolsnshire, I can think of plenty of places that would be substantially improved by being a battery storage facility compared to their existing use.


The above assumes current levels of renewable generation, which is rising all the time - wind output will more than double in the next 5-6 years, and solar will increase by around 50% in the same timeframe (yes, even on gloomy, still days). Also this does not include the potential upside from the large pipeline of battery storage projects in construction or planned, nor the four pumped storage projects with planning consent (one in pre-construction), nor the X Links project, nor any of the proposed interconnectors not yet confirmed. Nor does it include the effects of domestic battery systems, vehicle to grid systems, nor dynamic pricing of electricity, all of which are here now and will expand rapidly in the next few years.

Recent statistics demonstrate the rapid trend of decarbonisation in the power system: GB emissions from power generation for this summer (the three months of June / July / August) were half what they were 5 years ago (92g CO2 / kWh vs 180g), and roughly 20% of what they were 11 years ago (440g). Source: Drax Electric insights website.

In summary - we’ll be ok without coal now; next year we’ll be ok without gas on windy or sunny days when the temperature is mild, and by the end of the decade we’ll be ok without gas on the majority of days.

Thanks.

 

[trainswitheddy]

sorry, what??

West Burton A: Appeal to save 'carbon Stonehenge' from demolition

Campaigners say the last of the "engineering marvels" of power station cooling towers should be saved.

www.bbc.co.uk

"TCS tried to get the West Burton towers listed but instead a Certificate Of Immunity (COI) was issued, effectively blocking any attempt at preservation."

As a former resident of Lincolsnshire, I can think of plenty of places that would be substantially improved by being a battery storage facility compared to their existing use.

Definitely. High Marnham has been left dormant for years now (I think ironically is now being developed for energy storage but could be wrong), Cottam and West Burton will also be empty once demolished (I believe the ash disposal site at West Burton is where the nuclear plant is planned to be built).

Anyway...back on topic. Assuming it's unlikely that Ratcliffe on Soar generates again this month? Read elsewhere that the coal stockpile was burned through rather quickly last run.

 

[ian1944]

Use it to conceal a gravity storage unit - winch a big weight up when power is cheap and drop it when there is a tricky peak. Should be a decent power connection nearby!

With the tower 115m high, what would be the potential energy in MWh per tonne raided to the top?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Off topic for a rail forum really, but massive pumped storage of power generated when it is windy/at night when demand is lower, plus imports from Norway/Netherlands/Belgium (we send power the other way when we have a surplus) and 5-10 baseload nuclear and gas power stations.

We have Dinorwig as our big pumped storage project at the moment, but an example of one that is being built is Coire Glas in Scotland (https://www.coireglas.com/project).

UK consumed 641GWh of leccy yesterday. Dinorwig can store 9GWh Coire Gas will be 30GWh if they ever build it. You can see the problem

 

[Bald Rick]

With the tower 115m high, what would be the potential energy in MWh per tonne raided to the top?

I’m sure you know, but assuming no system losses, it’s 0.31 kWh

(note the first letter)

So even it was 3,000 tonnes, implying a concrete cube of 11 metres dimension, and something that could support that weight (which a cooling tower certainly couldn’t), it would only be 1MWh. Or roughly the same as 5 tons of EV batteries about the size of a large double wardrobe.

 

[HSTEd]

I did run the calculations once for a 100TWh pumped storage plant. A 285m tall circular embankment dam about 30km in diameter in the North Sea.

The quantity of cement to make it out of roller compacted concrete came out surprisingly reasonable. About 20 ISH years of Dubai's consumption

 

[AlastairFraser]

UK consumed 641GWh of leccy yesterday. Dinorwig can store 9GWh Coire Gas will be 30GWh if they ever build it. You can see the problem

Well, peak demand is usually around 35GW max in the UK, and we are planned to have around 10GW of pumped. So it is true that it will not be a solution for all, but just under 3rd of our peak power needs is a decent percentage.

 

[hwl]

The above assumes current levels of renewable generation, which is rising all the time - wind output will more than double in the next 5-6 years, and solar will increase by around 50% in the same timeframe (yes, even on gloomy, still days). Also this does not include the potential upside from the large pipeline of battery storage projects in construction or planned, nor the four pumped storage projects with planning consent (one in pre-construction), nor the X Links project, nor any of the proposed interconnectors not yet confirmed. Nor does it include the effects of domestic battery systems, vehicle to grid systems, nor dynamic pricing of electricity, all of which are here now and will expand rapidly in the next few years.

And licences for another 9.6GW of wind generation successfully auctioned this week

Recent statistics demonstrate the rapid trend of decarbonisation in the power system: GB emissions from power generation for this summer (the three months of June / July / August) were half what they were 5 years ago (92g CO2 / kWh vs 180g), and roughly 20% of what they were 11 years ago (440g). Source: Drax Electric insights website.

In summary - we’ll be ok without coal now; next year we’ll be ok without gas on windy or sunny days when the temperature is mild, and by the end of the decade we’ll be ok without gas on the majority of days.

Which if the existing in build and a reasonable minority of the capacity awarded at auction this week is on line will happen.

 

[Bald Rick]

And licences for another 9.6GW of wind generation successfully auctioned this week

Which if the existing in build and a reasonable minority of the capacity awarded at auction this week is on line will happen.

Exactly. Almost all of the proposals successfull at aucton this week are marked for delivery by 2029.

I did run the calculations once for a 100TWh pumped storage plant. A 285m tall circular embankment dam about 30km in diameter in the North Sea.

The quantity of cement to make it out of roller compacted concrete came out surprisingly reasonable. About 20 ISH years of Dubai's consumption

Now that is advanced level power crayoning, congratulations Sir! 100TWh would cover us for 3-4 months?

 

[HSTEd]

Now that is advanced level power crayoning, congratulations Sir! 100TWh would cover us for 3-4 months?

At current levels of electricity consumption, it would be less than that with decarbonisation. Noone is really settled on how much electricity will be needed in a future energy system - it varies from 500TWh to something like 1100TWh.
And my own models top up at around 1500TWh in some situations, depending on what actually happens with decarbonisation.

I actually tried to spec 1TWh but made a mistake and made 100TWh.
It gets mroe efficient with size because the cost raises approximately linearly with diameter, but energy stored rises with the square of diameter.

 

[Bald Rick]

I actually tried to spec 1TWh but made a mistake and made 100TWh.
It gets mroe efficient with size because the cost raises approximately linearly with diameter, but energy stored rises with the square of diameter.

I think 1TWh is more reasonable.

And to get us back on topic, it would need a procession of cement and aggregate trains towards the east coast ports to get materials for the construction, thereby replacing the missing coal trains !

 

[dangie]

Well, peak demand is usually around 35GW max in the UK….

In summer probably, but in winter peak demand is around 55GW.

 

[Trainbike46]

No, wind isnt going to have to be 50% constantly…




.. and no, battery storage would not need to be the size of Lincolnshire. There’s a 100MW / MWh battery facility at Richborough Park in Thanet, and that is 1.6 hectares, ie 16 hectares per GWh.

Scaled up to the size needed to power the UK for a week in winter assuming low wind, low solar, 75% import capacity on the connectors, existing biomass and nuclear generating at 90% (but not Hinckley point C), which between all of them would be generating 20GW vs a winter average demand of 35GW, we would need about 2,500 GWh of battery capacity, which would be 40,000 hectares.

Exactly, it is immently doable to fully decarbonise our grid. Hydro is also another part of our power system that I think you forgot, but it's not big enough to materially change your figures anyway

Recent statistics demonstrate the rapid trend of decarbonisation in the power system: GB emissions from power generation for this summer (the three months of June / July / August) were half what they were 5 years ago (92g CO2 / kWh vs 180g), and roughly 20% of what they were 11 years ago (440g). Source: Drax Electric insights website.

In summary - we’ll be ok without coal now; next year we’ll be ok without gas on windy or sunny days when the temperature is mild, and by the end of the decade we’ll be ok without gas on the majority of days.

Just highlighting this part of your response again

 

[Rob F]

I would say the preserved one should be in the Aire Valley, the area most famous for them. Are there any still visible from the main motorways that are a landmark?

I would say, at its peak, the Trent Valley was just as iconic.

 

[Flying Phil]

The steam from the cooling towers did look quite spectacular against the blue sky earlier…

Strictly it is water vapour that is seen, as per clouds, steam is water at 100+degrees C. The cooling towers are there to cool the condensing water I believe.