"The North Of England Is Getting A Rough Deal" discussion

[Clip]

Perhaps I should start a thread entitled 'Is the North East of the North getting a rough deal'?

Would be good and interesting to see certain posters views given that its quite obvious that there's shed loads of money being spent in the north west and getting cascaded trains and even the metrolink is on its second fleet of trams isn't it?

The north east still has rattling old trains on it and the metro is still using stock that's nearly 40 years old and I'm sure they would be happy for electrification schemes and some cascaded 319's.

 

[Moonshot]

Would be good and interesting to see certain posters views given that its quite obvious that there's shed loads of money being spent in the north west and getting cascaded trains and even the metrolink is on its second fleet of trams isn't it?

The north east still has rattling old trains on it and the metro is still using stock that's nearly 40 years old and I'm sure they would be happy for electrification schemes and some cascaded 319's.

So are we to conclude that the North West isnt getting a rough deal, but the North East is still lagging behind? I live in North West myself, and can certainly see the progress ( in the shape of building sites !! ) currently being made here.....

Maybe the North East needs a successfull football team !!!!

 

[gorilladan]

So are we to conclude that the North West isnt getting a rough deal, but the North East is still lagging behind? I live in North West myself, and can certainly see the progress ( in the shape of building sites !! ) currently being made here.....

Maybe the North East needs a successfull football team !!!!

I appreciate that the Super Clarets are well deserving of the phrase "Pride of Lancashire", but surely the reward for achieving Premiership status should be a bit more substantial than the Todmorden Curve (and the threat of a few Pacers to run on it, possibly at the end of this year)

 

[Moonshot]

I appreciate that the Super Clarets are well deserving of the phrase "Pride of Lancashire", but surely the reward for achieving Premiership status should be a bit more substantial than the Todmorden Curve (and the threat of a few Pacers to run on it, possibly at the end of this year)

Maybe we should hope for Chelsea Arsenal and Spurs to be relegated this coming season so that the DFT can rip up plans for HS2 and cascade the funds northwards instead!!

 

[muddythefish]

I appreciate that the Super Clarets are well deserving of the phrase "Pride of Lancashire", but surely the reward for achieving Premiership status should be a bit more substantial than the Todmorden Curve (and the threat of a few Pacers to run on it, possibly at the end of this year)

There's only one team in Lancashire that deserves that accolade and they wear blue and white halves.

With regards to the North East, the region has a good case for saying it is being starved of investment. The Newcastle- Sunderland-Middlesbrough link should have been electrified years ago.

Maybe North Easterners couldn't see past the end of their own noses when they rejected John Prescott's proposals for a devolved regional assembly (the first of many for the English regions) 15 years ago.

 

[sprinterguy]

With regards to the North East, the region has a good case for saying it is being starved of investment. The Newcastle- Sunderland-Middlesbrough link should have been electrified years ago.

I don’t think that it has much of a case for electrification, but a half-hourly service down the Durham Coast (Ideally with an hourly “fast” to York and retaining the existing hourly Middlesbrough – Hexham as an all-stations service) would be nice.

To be honest, more than single Pacer units on what can be heavily used services (relative to the capacity of a Pacer), particularly at the Northern end of the route, would be a good start. Just the opportunity for more doubling-up of units would be welcome.

 

[Clip]

Maybe North Easterners couldn't see past the end of their own noses when they rejected John Prescott's proposals for a devolved regional assembly (the first of many for the English regions) 15 years ago.

Maybe you have a point but are you saying that that is justification of just about zero investment in the region yet hundreds of millions spent elsewhere?

 

[muddythefish]

Maybe you have a point but are you saying that that is justification of just about zero investment in the region yet hundreds of millions spent elsewhere?

I was trying to say that the NE had the chance to wrest power from London and make decisions (including on transport) for itself. But it was rejected.

The lack of regional authority does not excuse the lack of investment though. For that we can blame the usual London-centric mandarins in Whitehall.

Do they know where Middlesbrough is ?

 

[NotATrainspott]

How many DMUs do Northern use on ECML services north of Newcastle? The ScotRail bidders are all to provide a priced option for their own ECML Edinburgh-Newcastle services, likely run with 380s or some more EGIP stock, and it might be an opportunity to take over these Northern services as well.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps I should start a thread entitled 'Is the North East of the North getting a rough deal'?

Hey there....what about those who live in the South East of the North" as I am sure that I can count of the support of your fellow moderator Ian XC and his noted support for his area.....

 

[sprinterguy]

How many DMUs do Northern use on ECML services north of Newcastle? The ScotRail bidders are all to provide a priced option for their own ECML Edinburgh-Newcastle services, likely run with 380s or some more EGIP stock, and it might be an opportunity to take over these Northern services as well.

Is it three, perhaps four, diagrams on the Morpeth to Metrocentre service (If you were to consider them in exclusion of any other "odd bits" that the diagrams do)?

 

[anme]

I suspect future fare rises on a new Northern franchise could be RPI+3%.

IIRC this is what has been done on London Midland and Southeastern.

I suspect RPI+3% is too politically toxic to actually happen, regardless of what's written in franchise agreements. An interesting side effect of privatisation is that the railways have risen significantly up the political agenda...

 

[tbtc]

There is one other factor to consider, especially in the case of the North. Aside from a few headline projects such as the A1/M1 link, the M62 <cough> widening and the M60 development, there hasn’t been a huge spend on the roads in this region

Apart from all those Motorways, what have the Romans ever done for us?

It should be remembered that there have been very few new motorway projects in the UK in the past twenty-ish years (the M74 extension in Glasgow is the only recent one I can think of, off the top of my head) - the upgrading of the A1 north of Wetherby to Motorway standard is another "northern" scheme worth mentioning though.

I'm sure there's a long list of "roads wot could have been built" in the South East though (which puts the widely held belief that "roads get built really easily" and "the South East gets whatever it wants" into perspective though)...

...there's the (lack of) M27 along the South Downs, there's the need to upgrade the A14 from Rugby to Harwich etc, there's the fact that Norfolk has no motorway (imagine the outrage if it were oop north...)...

...grass isn't always greener.

I have just skimmed through all these pages, and noticed one thing that hasn't really been mentioned much, and is rarely mentioned in everyday conversation.

Has anyone considered just how much time and money are effectively wasted on commuting, in whichever part of the country it is? Millions of people spending up to 4 hours a day just sitting on a train or in a car for 60% of their days throughout their working life.

Add this to all the other social issues of the way we live and travel to work, and there is huge scope to make changes if only people would see it. Most of the jobs don't need to be in the places they are located in, so all these millions of people are having their daily lives disrupted, just for the benefit of a small elite group of individuals (including politicians) insisting on their business being located where they want it to be, and to hell with everyone else.

We have even got to the position were (because commuting is becoming accepted without question) people on minimum or just above minimum wages are expected to travel 20 miles each way just to earn their crust, when probably a similar person is making the journey in the opposite direction, for a similar job with a similar salary.

Perhaps looking at the absurdity of this could benefit everyone, but somehow I doubt anyone would take the lead.

Ideally we wouldn't need to all travel at the same time, ideally there wouldn't be a rush hour, ideally we'd all have jobs much closer to where we live, but we have to deal with the reality of things

This thread still amuses me because anyone who didn't know about england would assume that the north of england is only about manchester and leeds.

True - most of the grumbling about lack of investment is coming from those around the city that has seem the most investment (Metrolink, "Manchester" Hub etc)

Which is no different from us Northerners just considering that anything down south is London and thats it!!!!

It would be easy to make this mistake. When I get emails from any company offering me train tickets at a 'price just too good to miss', there is only one destination offered to me, be it from Manchester, Liverpool, Preston or even the station I want to use (Wigan).

Passenger demand to London is always going to be significant, and include a large "leisure" element. Maybe they could send emails advertising days out in Rotherham instead?

Perhaps I should start a thread entitled 'Is the North East of the North getting a rough deal'?

So are we to conclude that the North West isnt getting a rough deal, but the North East is still lagging behind?

Yup

Maybe the North East needs a successfull football team !!!!

Cheeky sod - Berwick almost made the playoffs last season

With regards to the North East, the region has a good case for saying it is being starved of investment. The Newcastle- Sunderland-Middlesbrough link should have been electrified years ago

True - I think that the Metro electrification has scuppered the possibilities of a "simple" electrification on the Durham Coast.

Whilst there's a reasonably simple pattern on the Middlesbrough - Carlisle axis (Chathill already being under the wires), plus a half hourly Saltburn - Darlo service, it would leave the awkwardly infrequent Whitby and Bishop Auckland lines unelectrified - worth keeping a handful of DMUs just for these lines? (in the way that it isn't currently worth keeping a handful of EMUs just for the Morpeth/Chathill services).

Maybe the first step is the simple wiring to the Metro Centre - shame that wasn't tacked on to CP5 plans as a very small add-on (in terms of miles)

How many DMUs do Northern use on ECML services north of Newcastle? The ScotRail bidders are all to provide a priced option for their own ECML Edinburgh-Newcastle services, likely run with 380s or some more EGIP stock, and it might be an opportunity to take over these Northern services as well.

Whenever this is brought up, the poor business case for a through service is generally mentioned. And without wiring to the Metro Centre, you'd lose the link from Alnmouth/Morpeth/Cramlington to the popular shopping destination.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Passenger demand to London is always going to be significant, and include a large "leisure" element. Maybe they could send emails advertising days out in Rotherham instead?

Given the choice, I'd choose Rotherham, but at 2 hours+, 2 changes and over £20 single, I'll need to give it a miss until there is a half decent service.

Being offered good value fares to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Cardiff, Bristol, York etc wouldn't go amiss though, especially the Scotland destinations using one of those usually empty seats in the 4 first class coaches on Virgin Trains.

 

[pemma]

So are we to conclude that the North West isnt getting a rough deal, but the North East is still lagging behind?

Don't think you can make a generalisation like that.

Eaglescliffe gets a far superior service to Hale, despite the latter being (just) in a PTE area and having twice the population of Eaglescliffe.

You could say the Whitby-Middlesbrough service is dreadful but there are at least some direct trains between the two but try getting from Warrington to Tatton Park (one of the most popular tourist attractions in the UK) by public transport - bus to Altrincham, train to Knutsford, followed by long walk.

However, to counter balance how good the service at Eaglescliffe is, Chester-le-Street doesn't have a fully hourly service while towns like Congleton and Nantwich which used to have a similar level of service have seen enhancements.

 

[Moonshot]

Don't think you can make a generalisation like that.

Eaglescliffe gets a far superior service to Hale, despite the latter being (just) in a PTE area and having twice the population of Eaglescliffe.

You could say the Whitby-Middlesbrough service is dreadful but there are at least some direct trains between the two but try getting from Warrington to Tatton Park (one of the most popular tourist attractions in the UK) by public transport - bus to Altrincham, train to Knutsford, followed by long walk.

However, to counter balance how good the service at Eaglescliffe is, Chester-le-Street doesn't have a fully hourly service while towns like Congleton and Nantwich which used to have a similar level of service have seen enhancements.

Yes I can - the North West of England ( in particular Manchester ) is seeing some significant investment, I see this with my own eyes every day. I dont really care ( and I suspect a lot of others as well ) how difficult it is to get public transport from Warrington to Tatton Park, its a very minor route.

So to go back to the original post, the north isnt getting a bad deal at all.....but it just so happens that our North East forumites are not seeing much investment activity just now.

 

[pemma]

Yes I can - the North West of England ( in particular Manchester ) is seeing some significant investment, I see this with my own eyes every day. I dont really care ( and I suspect a lot of others as well ) how difficult it is to get public transport from Warrington to Tatton Park, its a very minor route.

Well Newcastle is getting a lot of investment as well with a £8.6m station redevelopment, new IEP trains and likely a half-hourly electric service to/from Liverpool. So if you want to focus only on the main cities in the North then the North East is doing just as well as the North West. If you want to take places like Middlesbrough and Darlington in to account then you need to also take places like Warrington in to account. Warrington has no rail links to central or eastern Cheshire, I specifically named Tatton Park due to the number of tourists it's gets being comparable to the number that Whitby gets.

 

[Moonshot]

As I said, the North of England isnt getting a bad deal at all.......but i dont have a narrow minded viewpoint which focuses on Tatton Park etc......I could name 1000s of places which dont have direct rail links. Investment invariably focuses where it can get a bigger bang for its buck.

 

[pemma]

As I said, the North of England isnt getting a bad deal at all.......but i dont have a narrow minded viewpoint which focuses on Tatton Park etc......I could name 1000s of places which dont have direct rail links. Investment invariably focuses where it can get a bigger bang for its buck.

Tatton Park doesn't need it's own station. The route of the Mid-Cheshire line was taken deliberately to avoid Tatton Park at the request of Lord Egerton, who owned the park before it was passed on to the National Trust and was opened to the public. Ideally what is needed are direct buses to the park from stations which could include Altrincham, Knutsford and Manchester Airport and not just when there's special events on like the RHS show. (There are courtesy buses from Knutsford and Altrincham between tomorrow and Sunday operated on behalf of the RHS.)

However, as I said in my previous post there is no direct rail link between Warrington and central or eastern Cheshire. Yet there is a limited direct rail link between Middlesbrough and Whitby. I specifically mentioned Tatton Park due the high number of tourists, there's numerous towns in the area which are larger than Whitby but had I said Northwich, Knutsford or Macclesfield someone would have probably immediately commented on the high tourist appeal of Whitby. There are places where on paper it looks like the North East has it bad but there are quite often areas within the North West that are worse off. Not everyone in the North West uses public transport to get to Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Bolton and Blackpool.

So as you're saying the North East has it bad, which specific lines or lack or lines are you thinking of? Note that Newcastle are Sunderland are similar in size to Bolton so making comparisons with Manchester, Salford or Liverpool aren't fair comparisons.

 

[Moonshot]

I ll just re iterate ( going back to the OP ) - the North of England ( imo ) is not getting a bad deal at all, there is plenty of investment both now and in the future. I could also sit here all day and zero in on smaller areas in the North where nothing appears to be happening or is likely to.....which is what anyone else can do.

 

[NotATrainspott]

True - I think that the Metro electrification has scuppered the possibilities of a "simple" electrification on the Durham Coast.

Whilst there's a reasonably simple pattern on the Middlesbrough - Carlisle axis (Chathill already being under the wires), plus a half hourly Saltburn - Darlo service, it would leave the awkwardly infrequent Whitby and Bishop Auckland lines unelectrified - worth keeping a handful of DMUs just for these lines? (in the way that it isn't currently worth keeping a handful of EMUs just for the Morpeth/Chathill services).

Maybe the first step is the simple wiring to the Metro Centre - shame that wasn't tacked on to CP5 plans as a very small add-on (in terms of miles)



Whenever this is brought up, the poor business case for a through service is generally mentioned. And without wiring to the Metro Centre, you'd lose the link from Alnmouth/Morpeth/Cramlington to the popular shopping destination.

Maybe electrification to MetroCentre would be something the new Northern bidders would suggest to help get rid of Pacers? Even if the ScotRail suggestion weren't possible then it would still make EMU services more feasible.

The T&W Metrocars won't last forever and when the time comes to replace them it wouldn't be impossible to specify them with dual-voltage capability. Hopefully the 1500V DC to 25kV AC conversion of the Network Rail lines won't be too challenging. As an added bonus you could use these dual-voltage trains to expand the T&W Metro network some more at minimal cost along shared tracks while still allowing electric mainline services - Leamside line anyone?

 

[pemma]

I ll just re iterate ( going back to the OP ) - the North of England ( imo ) is not getting a bad deal at all, there is plenty of investment both now and in the future. I could also sit here all day and zero in on smaller areas in the North where nothing appears to be happening or is likely to.....which is what anyone else can do.

So you said you concluded the North is getting a good deal but the North East is lagging behind but then refuse to discuss your reasoning? There's some journalist jobs going at RT (Russia Today)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe electrification to MetroCentre would be something the new Northern bidders would suggest to help get rid of Pacers? Even if the ScotRail suggestion weren't possible then it would still make EMU services more feasible.

The T&W Metrocars won't last forever and when the time comes to replace them it wouldn't be impossible to specify them with dual-voltage capability. Hopefully the 1500V DC to 25kV AC conversion of the Network Rail lines won't be too challenging. As an added bonus you could use these dual-voltage trains to expand the T&W Metro network some more at minimal cost along shared tracks while still allowing electric mainline services - Leamside line anyone?

The great think about T&W Metro is they have vehicles which are compatible to run on National Rail now. Sheffield Supertram will also be getting vehicles but new/lowered platforms will be required. Manchester Metrolink aren't even close to getting vehicles that can be used on National Rail, even though a dual voltage high floor tram-train would seem to be an easier solution than tram-trains on National Rail around the Sheffield area.

 

[Moonshot]

So you said you concluded the North is getting a good deal but the North East is lagging behind but then refuse to discuss your reasoning? There's some journalist jobs going at RT (Russia Today)

Yep - as far as i can see the North is getting a good deal, but from where I sit , it seems a bit skewed to the North West as opposed to the North East. But of course I m out and about in the North West every day......so Id be relying on our forumites in the North East to highlight investment activity, and I dont see too many of them doing that.

Not sure what relevance Russian journalists have to this thread...

 

[pemma]

Not sure what relevance Russian journalists have to this thread...

Drawing conclusions without looking at the wider picture and then refusing to look at different viewpoints when questioned on it.

I dont see too many of them doing that.

Well they seem to be of the conclusion they aren't getting a fair level of investment compared to the South, which is the same opinion most of the North has when figures are quoted for £600m investment for Northern Hub and £6.5bn for Thameslink.

 

[Moonshot]

Drawing conclusions without looking at the wider picture and then refusing to look at different viewpoints when questioned on it.



Well they seem to be of the conclusion they aren't getting a fair level of investment compared to the South, which is the same opinion most of the North has when figures are quoted for £600m investment for Northern Hub and £6.5bn for Thameslink.

I certainly wont look at your viewpoint..........

And I ll just go back yet again to the topic of this thread......I think the North in general is doing very well in terms of investment, but I do think at the moment it is skewed to the North West.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would be good and interesting to see certain posters views given that its quite obvious that there's shed loads of money being spent in the north west and getting cascaded trains and even the metrolink is on its second fleet of trams isn't it?

The north east still has rattling old trains on it and the metro is still using stock that's nearly 40 years old and I'm sure they would be happy for electrification schemes and some cascaded 319's.

Yes it is - and the network is still expanding. Its a brilliant way of getting out and about around Greater Manchester.

 

[muddythefish]

I ll just re iterate ( going back to the OP ) - the North of England ( imo ) is not getting a bad deal at all, there is plenty of investment both now and in the future. I could also sit here all day and zero in on smaller areas in the North where nothing appears to be happening or is likely to.....which is what anyone else can do.

The North is starting to play catch-up compared to the south east but there's still alot to do before it could be said the north "isn't getting a bad deal".

All the routes into Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds/Sheffield need electrifying and modern rolling stock - you only have to travel on the Bolton-Clitheroe and Preston-Colne lines for example to see the gross under-investment of the past 30 years.

 

[Moonshot]

The North is starting to play catch-up compared to the south east but there's still alot to do before it could be said the north "isn't getting a bad deal".

All the routes into Manchester/Liverpool/Leeds/Sheffield need electrifying and modern rolling stock - you only have to travel on the Bolton-Clitheroe and Preston-Colne lines for example to see the gross under-investment of the past 30 years.

And I could probably highlight routes south which have suffered under investment......

The North isnt getting a bad deal at all.

 

[muddythefish]

And I could probably highlight routes south which have suffered under investment......

.

Such as ? I don't see any Pacers rattling into the metropolis every day.

The North has been starved of investment for decades and will continue to get a bad deal until all its towns and cities gets the level of investment seen in the south.

 

[pemma]

I certainly wont look at your viewpoint..........

Hence why I said RT are recruiting journalists. You'd fit in nicely with your "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is very wrong" attitude.

Its a brilliant way of getting out and about around Greater Manchester.

It's the most criticised public transport system on social media, with the criticism coming from the people who use it. The new trams with very low seating capacity have gone down badly while there's no back up plan when things go wrong - telling people their tickets are accepted on local bus routes doesn't work as the local bus routes don't have sufficient capacity to carry the Metrolink passengers, while passengers usually get told to use local bus routes before the drivers get told to accept Metrolink tickets.

even the metrolink is on its second fleet of trams isn't it?

The last T68 has recently been withdrawn. West Midlands Metro are in the process of replacing their newer T69s so the Metrolink trams have lasted as long as any other second generation trams in the UK, even though they are being withdrawn early based on life expectancy of trams in European countries.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Such as ? I don't see any Pacers rattling into the metropolis every day.
The North has been starved of investment for decades and will continue to get a bad deal until all its towns and cities gets the level of investment seen in the south.

The money which might be spent on new trains evaporates in subsidy every day on Northern and other regional TOC areas without a viable revenue stream.
There are some basic rules of economics that are inescapable.
It's all about short uneconomic trains running on an over-complex network, taking low fares over short distances (relative to intercity and south east services).
It's no better in most of Scotland, Wales or the south-west.