Time to abolish 1p and 2p coins?

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes, often seen at pie and tea/coffee kiosks at sports grounds. Possibly had moody notes handed over to them at some time in the past.

 

[upasalmon]

While the €500 banknote has been withdrawn the €100 and €200 banknotes are still in circulation in the euro zone, and these are worth about £80 and £160 each, although this can vary. There is a forgery fear with large value notes which is understandable.

 

[baz962]

I'm not sure how anyone obtains a fifty pound note as none of the ATM's give them out.

That said, I did do a legitimate £150 cash transaction a couple of weeks ago, buying my football season ticket.

Casino atm's give 50's

 

[upasalmon]

Going back on the thread the fact that copper coins (bronze coloured as ALL coins are cupronickel) are worth more as scrap metal proves that they are not worth the metal they are minted on. People giving to charities tend to give 5p, 10p ,20p and 50p coins or their equivalent in copper. Those of you who drive buses know that copper coins are not legal tender above 20p. I am sure charities adjusted to the old "d" pennies abolition 50 years ago given the "p" penny was worth 2.4 times of the "d" penny. They would have adapted to the old ½p abolition. The old halfpenny and farthing vanished, the latter when they were not worth the metal used.
AND FINALLY it irritates me when people say "ONE PENCE". The word is PENNY. But then it might not matter....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still notice that certain of our local shops, including our local chemist, have notices stating that £50 notes are not accepted. Anyone else seen such notices?

I've always found our attitude towards large notes odd. In Switzerland you can withdraw CHF200 as one note and go and buy a sandwich for say CHF10 and you'll get given change without even a funny look.

 

[curly42]

Speaking as someone who only uses cash (don't have any cards at all),I would like to see the retention of the small coinage.
The 1 and 2p coins I put into the charity boxes in my local pub probably amount to quite a sum over the course of a year,although I would most likely still do it if the smallest coin was a 5p piece.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I still notice that certain of our local shops, including our local chemist, have notices stating that £50 notes are not accepted. Anyone else seen such notices?

My dad dined out last year in a local pub with my step mother and another couple. He agreed to pick up the tab for the meals which came to about £55 pounds. He tried to pay with a £50 note and some change but the bar manager refused stating they don't accept the £50s. I suspect some places refuse to accept them because it demolishes their till float of change, but other places may not accept them for forgery reasons.

CJ

 

[crablab]

copper coins are not legal tender above 20p

Didn't know that - why?

 

[py_megapixel]

Didn't know that - why?

Presumably because any more than that in pennies is a nuisance to handle?

 

[crablab]

Agreed, but to make it not legal tender above that amount...

Does that mean I have to cash in 1s and 2s at the bank only in increments of 20p?

 

[py_megapixel]

Agreed, but to make it not legal tender above that amount...

I think it's just to stop people being daft - for example, it makes it legal to demand that those morons who try to waste the time of everyone involved by paying their speeding tickets in pennies come back with a more sensible denomination.

I highly doubt anyone would care if you tried to pay 21p in coppers...

 

[xotGD]

My dad dined out last year in a local pub with my step mother and another couple. He agreed to pick up the tab for the meals which came to about £55 pounds. He tried to pay with a £50 note and some change but the bar manager refused stating they don't accept the £50s. I suspect some places refuse to accept them because it demolishes their till float of change, but other places may not accept them for forgery reasons.

CJ

Is it legal for a business to do this?

The only time I see fifties is when a relative from abroad has brought them into the country. However some years ago I needed to withdraw a big pile of cash from the building society for a major purchase and got that in fifties.

 

[Trackman]

Some kids near me kids throw copper on the floor outside the shop if they get it in their change.

 

[xotGD]

Some kids near me kids throw copper on the floor outside the shop if they get it in their change.

They aspire to become the football players who light their cigars with twenty pound notes.

 

[tbtc]

Discussion of the fifty pound note reminds me that the five hundred euro note was withdrawn a few years ago - large denominations of currency can cause problems

No it wouldn't!

As stated elsewhere in this thread, Canada doesn't have any low value coinage. Prices there are still quoted as $x.xx and are not restricted to multiples of 5 cents. Pay for something by card there and you will pay the exact amount (I'm sure I've still got receipts showing this). It is only when you pay by cash that it gets interesting - buy one item at $9.99 and it'll cost you $10. Buy 3 of them and it'll cost $29.95 as it is the total that gets rounded, not the individual items.

I just think that there'd be too many people upset in the UK if you tried to force people without debit cards to pay more for products than people with cards - it'd be a two tier system that penalises the poorest in society who'd end up paying higher prices.

Or are you saying that someone with a card would pay $29.97 for three items (i.e. three times the actual price) but someone paying cash would get it marginally cheaper (since the shop would round the seven down to the nearest five)?

My grandparents really don't get on with technology beyond a basic television with Freeview and a washing machine (it wasn't that long ago they got rid of their twin tub!). Therefore they periodically go to the bank and withdraw a few months worth of cash out at a time from the cashier, and usually come back with £50 notes. God knows how they spend them though - I once got given one for my birthday and it was a nightmare trying to spend it anywhere!

Thank heavens for Self Service tills - I always felt guilty passing a checkout attendant a twenty pound note (since it'd mess up their "float") but you don't have to do that awkward apologetic British routine when paying with a bigger note in a self service till - call it the Poundland Tax, it costs a quid to convert a large note!

Some kids near me kids throw copper on the floor outside the shop if they get it in their change.

That's got me thinking - I'm sure that I'd have bent down to pick up a penny in the street when I was younger but I doubt I'd make the effort for anything less than a twenty pence piece nowadays - maybe that says more about my knees than it does about inflation since then though!

 

[gswindale]

Discussion of the fifty pound note reminds me that the five hundred euro note was withdrawn a few years ago - large denominations of currency can cause problems



I just think that there'd be too many people upset in the UK if you tried to force people without debit cards to pay more for products than people with cards - it'd be a two tier system that penalises the poorest in society who'd end up paying higher prices.

Or are you saying that someone with a card would pay $29.97 for three items (i.e. three times the actual price) but someone paying cash would get it marginally cheaper (since the shop would round the seven down to the nearest five)?

The latter - if I paid by card, the exact price, but cash would see a small saving in this instance. So in some cases you may pay slightly more (2p max I reckon) but in other cases you'd pay upto 2p less. It is in effect cash neutral for the business ( sell 1 item to 1 person and 2 to another, they pay 1p and 2p more. Sell 3 to a third and 4 to a fourth and they pay 2p and 1p less).

 

[C J Snarzell]

Is it legal for a business to do this?

The only time I see fifties is when a relative from abroad has brought them into the country. However some years ago I needed to withdraw a big pile of cash from the building society for a major purchase and got that in fifties.

I don't think it is illegal as a business has the right to refuse cash if they are not happy with it. The Scottish notes are always a problem - even though they are legal tender in England I know a lot of shops I've used over the years have turned their noses up at them.

CJ

 

[GB]

If the transaction is an “invitation to treat”...ie buying something at a supermarket/shop, then the business can refuse if they so wish. If you are paying to settle a debt ie a service already rendered, then the business can’t refuse legal tender.

in the dining example above, as you have used the service and eaten the food then technically the business can’t refuse a £50 note.

thats my understanding anyway.

 

[RuralRambler]

I still notice that certain of our local shops, including our local chemist, have notices stating that £50 notes are not accepted. Anyone else seen such notices?

Yes, the small shops in our village have those notices. We're just off a motorway junction so apparently fraudsters would stop off, convert a fifty in each shop and then get back on the motorway. Quite a few times, the shop owners were on our local Facebook page warning each other, only to find the others had been caught out at virtually the same time.

 

[route101]

Ive seen Greggs with notices saying they dont accept £50 notes. When i worked in retail it was usually trademen who payed in £50 and £100 notes.

I usually save the pennies and use it as spending money for a trip.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I don't think it is illegal as a business has the right to refuse cash if they are not happy with it. The Scottish notes are always a problem - even though they are legal tender in England I know a lot of shops I've used over the years have turned their noses up at them.

CJ

Scottish notes are NOT legal tender in England.

 

[hst43102]

Agreed, but to make it not legal tender above that amount...

Does that mean I have to cash in 1s and 2s at the bank only in increments of 20p?

I believe cashing money into the bank can be done in any amount. I've banked >£10 in copper coins with no problem.

 

[Trackman]

Scottish notes are NOT legal tender in England.

And not even in Scotland!
To confuse matters more, Bank of England notes are not even legal tender in Scotland.
It is a legal currency, not but not a legal tender.
Baffling eh?

Legal Position

www.scotbanks.org.uk

 

[najaB]

Going back on the thread the fact that copper coins (bronze coloured as ALL coins are cupronickel) are worth more as scrap metal proves that they are not worth the metal they are minted on.

I'm not sure that's the case. The Royal Mint says that the 1p coin is copper plated steel[1] and weigh about 3.65g each. That means a ton of 1p coins is worth approximately £2,740. We don't know the percentage of copper vs steel, but using current metal prices of £355/t for steel and £5,291/t for copper [2][3], the crossover point (where the metal becomes worth more than the money) would be around 52% copper.

[1]https://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/coin-design-and-specifications/one-penny-coin/
[2]https://www.lme.com/Metals/Ferrous/Steel-Scrap#tabIndex=0
[3]https://www.lme.com/Metals/Non-ferrous/Copper#tabIndex=0

 

[A Challenge]

I'm not sure that's the case. The Royal Mint says that the 1p coin is copper plated steel[1] and weigh about 3.65g each. That means a ton of 1p coins is worth approximately £2,740. We don't know the percentage of copper vs steel, but using current metal prices of £355/t for steel and £5,291/t for copper [2][3], the crossover point (where the metal becomes worth more than the money) would be around 52% copper.

1p Coin | The Royal Mint

View the 1p coin designs that have been issued in the United Kingdom.

www.royalmint.com

Bronze (97% copper, 2.5% zinc, 0.5% tin) - until September 1992
Copper-plated steel - since September 1992

This implies that a pre-1992 penny is worth more than a penny in scrap copper, but probably not a newer penny.

EDIT: Just noticed I've linked the to the same page as you, @najaB, having googled it again

 

[C J Snarzell]

And not even in Scotland!
To confuse matters more, Bank of England notes are not even legal tender in Scotland.
It is a legal currency, not but not a legal tender.
Baffling eh?

Legal Position

www.scotbanks.org.uk

Very confusing. Many many years ago, the English banks used to try and remove the Scottish notes from circulation in English towns & cities and then ship them back up North about once a month so they could be reused again back in Scotland. I assume the Scots did something similar.

I know when Glasgow Rangers played one of the European teams at the Etihad Stadium in 2008, the fans drank the whole of Manchester dry. Pubs, bars and off licences made a fortune with their tills full of Scottish currency.

CJ

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I know when Glasgow Rangers played one of the European teams at the Etihad Stadium in 2008, the fans drank the whole of Manchester dry. Pubs, bars and off licences made a fortune with their tills full of Scottish currency.

CJ

May 2008. Zenit Saint Petersburg the opposition. Cost Manchester City council a small fortune to clean up the City Centre after that game after it was left well trashed with mainly alcohol related debris. 39 public disorder arrests if I rightly recall.

 

[C J Snarzell]

May 2008. Zenit Saint Petersburg the opposition. Cost Manchester City council a small fortune to clean up the City Centre after that game after it was left well trashed with mainly alcohol related debris. 39 public disorder arrests if I rightly recall.

Horrible.........I don't think Rangers fans endeared themselves to well with the people of Manchester. One word springs to mind - carnage!

CJ

 

[Tetchytyke]

Going back on the thread the fact that copper coins (bronze coloured as ALL coins are cupronickel) are worth more as scrap metal proves that they are not worth the metal they are minted on.

That's not true, as I said above (and as @najaB said later). UK coins are not cupronickel. The older US 1c coin is worth more as scrap, but not the UK 1p and 2p.

We're just off a motorway junction so apparently fraudsters would stop off, convert a fifty in each shop and then get back on the motorway.

The most commonly forged note is the £20 note (or it was until the plastic notes came out), so I think it's more about the fear of getting a duff fifty than the likelihood.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Those of you who drive buses know that copper coins are not legal tender above 20p.

Sorry but this just isn't true. Legal Tender has a very narrow definition and applies only to the settlement of debt. So for bus fares it could only be applied if payment was made at the end of a journey. For most normal transactions it is up to both parties to settle in a mutually acceptable way. If a bus operator wishes to apply limits to acceptable coinage it really needs to ensure that such limits are adequately advertised to prospective passengers. Cash free operators post suitable notices on vehicles/stops as well as on publicity material. A bus driver should apply whatever policy is laid down by their employer: in the absence of such they are not free to make up their own rules!

In the past I have had both ends of the scale. A couple of times accepted £50 notes from passengers fresh off flights at Manchester Airport. Once had a £6.80 fare paid by a £5 note and £1.80 in coppers all neatly bagged up in bank coin bags. The way the bags were filled meant there was little doubt the amount was right and indeed it was correct when I later counted it. The "20p limit" types are mostly jobsworths.