Todmorden Curve

[pemma]

So the TPE stock changes in summary are:

Gain : 6 Class 156 sets from Northern = 12 carriages
Loss : 5 Class 170 sets to Chiltern = 10 carriages

Therefore Net Gain of 2 carriages.

Hmm. Is that it ?

There's a separate thread for discussing this, which I gave the link to earlier. It's an average increase in carriages for one TPE route but the 156s will not directly replace the 170s* so some TPE services will see a reduction in capacity.

And of course the DMUs freed up by electrification were supposed to provide extra capacity for routes not being electrified or not being electrified yet, so Northern are looking at splitting up Liverpool to Blackpool to try and get some DMUs freed up for that purpose but the split may not happen.

* because the 75mph 156s with no FC, seat reservations or facility for a trolley service.

 

[Class 170101]

Why weren't Class 158s weren't leased from Northern instead of Class 156s? Would that not have been a better fit for Blackpool services?

 

[spongsdad]

Looks like the 319's will be gathering dust a bit longer following yesterday's statement from NR in the Manchester-Liverpool Electrification thread.

And the Todmorden curve will open for passenger services on.................?
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It shouldn't be overlooked however, that Burnley is now a marginal constiuency, with the Lib Dems snatching it from Labour (who held it for 80 years) with a narrow majority.

It would just so happen that the line would be either re-opened or imminantly due to open at the time of the next general election, giving a massive local boost to the Lib Dems who's MP would be in every photo and cutting every ribbon.

Now, I couldn't possibly suggest that marginal constiuencies benefit from investment to a greater extent than safe ones, I'm sure each sheme will be judged purely on it's own merits....

So in answer to my own question, with a denial that am the least bit cynical and in reference to post #71 quoted here, the answer would appear to be May 2015, with a big fanfare for our local LibDem MP Gordon Birtwistle; ... though I still have my doubts.

 

[Darren R]

Are we really suggesting that Network Rail and Northern colluded in order to deliberately delay opening of the Curve in order to give sitting LibDem MP Gordon Birtwistle a boost at the General Election? That's quite a theory!

 

[tom1649]

* because the 75mph 156s with no FC, seat reservations or facility for a trolley service.

I've been on 156s with a trolley service before now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I've been on 156s with a trolley service before now.

What on earth is discussion on "156s with a trolley service" doing on the Todmorden Chord thread..hock:

 

[spongsdad]

Are we really suggesting that Network Rail and Northern colluded in order to deliberately delay opening of the Curve in order to give sitting LibDem MP Gordon Birtwistle a boost at the General Election? That's quite a theory!

Not really. I was looking back through the earlier posts on this thread. This one caught my eye. My own view is that (quite apart from the LibDem tendency to self destruct) the opening of this service will come rather too late for anyone to take any credit for it. In fact, I suspect that those most associated with this project will be asserting "Nothing to do with me, guv"

 

[Darren R]

... In fact, I suspect that those most associated with this project will be asserting "Nothing to do with me, guv"

Therein lies the rub - the fragmentation of the rail industry has resulted in this situation in the first place (or at least played a role.) The self-same fragmentation also allows the buck to be passed and prevents any real, meaningful lessons being learned for the future.

 

[tom1649]

What on earth is discussion on "156s with a trolley service" doing on the Todmorden Chord thread..hock:

Good question Paul. I should just keep quiet.

 

[158756]

Can I predict now that this won't open in May?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I predict now that this won't open in May?

Well, the fleet operators of the "Lancashire Witch" X43 bus service will be delighted to hear of your prediction. Even their latest dedicated fleet of 21st century buses on this route must have certainly put in some mileage since the Todmorden Chord fiasco first began...:roll:

 

[bluenoxid]

Will the MP be able to celebrate the benefits when they're in purdah?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Are we really suggesting that Network Rail and Northern colluded in order to deliberately delay opening of the Curve in order to give sitting LibDem MP Gordon Birtwistle a boost at the General Election? That's quite a theory!

No, Network Rail required no assistance whatsoever, though some of the supply chain did "help" them anyway.

 

[chrissawer]

This coming weekend sees the closure of the lines through Todmorden for more work on signalling for the curve. Let's hope this results in it being complete from an infrastructure point of view.

When units are eventually found to run the service I will be interested to see the fares for travelling on it. The bus fare from Todmorden to Burnley is £2.90 off peak single on quite a smart modern bus. They run mostly twice an hour and take around 40 minutes to get to Burnley Bus Station.

The train should be much quicker but Burnley Manchester Road is not as central as the bus station. From Hebden Bridge to Burnley on the train it's £7.60 off peak single which is rather steep.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The train should be much quicker but Burnley Manchester Road is not as central as the bus station. From Hebden Bridge to Burnley on the train it's £7.60 off peak single which is rather steep.

Noting the hill climb from Burnley bus station to Burnley Manchester Road station that also has to be added to this consideration, it will be marketed as "being good for your heart...and your health in general"...

I wonder how people making the first part of their commute by bus from their home areas, as Burnley bus station is indeed a transport hub in its destinations served, will view the walk from there to Burnley Manchester Road station? Still, they can always wait at the bus station for an onward bus journey on the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service, which will drop them near to that railway station, but of course, that extra bus journey cost will have to be added to the cost of the onward rail travel.

The only danger that I see in using that extra X43 bus connection is that the passenger will board a 21st century "state-of the art" bus to Burnley Manchester Road railway station, then seeing with not a little horror and incredulity what type of elderly unit Northern Rail has decided to run the onward rail service with...

 

[ianhr]

The only danger that I see in using that extra X43 bus connection is that the passenger will board a 21st century "state-of the art" bus to Burnley Manchester Road railway station, then seeing with not a little horror and incredulity what type of elderly unit Northern Rail has decided to run the onward rail service with...

It is also quite likely that when they reach the splendid new Burnley Manchester Road station they will find it LOCKED and will have to stand out in the wind and rain, or perhaps resort to the draughty bus shelter, while they wait for the train, unable to use the ticket issuing and information facility, warm waiting room or toilets. Northern with their usual foresight and dedication to customer care have decided to only staff it for a few hours on weekday mornings!

 

[Rail Ranger]

A recent meeting of the Rochdale Transport Group was told that the introduction of a passenger service on the Todmorden curve has been deferred to the December 2015 timetable, presumably because rolling stock will not now be available for a May 2015 start.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A recent meeting of the Rochdale Transport Group was told that the introduction of a passenger service on the Todmorden curve has been deferred to the December 2015 timetable, presumably because rolling stock will not now be available for a May 2015 start.

If this is the case, the depot running the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service will be holding yet another celebratory event to mark that occasion.
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In the same way if you get a connecting train service from Manchester then it'll be cheaper to use rail all the way. For instance, Burnley to Eccles via Todmorden is £9.90 (off-peak). If you catch the bus and then use the train it comes to a total of £11.40 (off-peak.)

The aspiration behind this posting that you made some time ago will not be much comfort to prospective rail travellers if what is said about a December 2015 service commencement date for the Blackburn - Copy Pit - Manchester line rail service.

Come to think of it, looking back through some of the pro-rail postings made on this thread since 2013 seem to have their aspirations similarly dashed.

 

[wasi]

A recent meeting of the Rochdale Transport Group was told that the introduction of a passenger service on the Todmorden curve has been deferred to the December 2015 timetable, presumably because rolling stock will not now be available for a May 2015 start.

If that's the case, it really is an absolute disgrace.

Surely as Liverpool > Manchester becomes electrified the DMU's will immediately become available?!?! Or have I missed something !

 

[158756]

If that's the case, it really is an absolute disgrace.

Surely as Liverpool > Manchester becomes electrified the DMU's will immediately become available?!?! Or have I missed something !

Those DMUs have seemingly been promised to TPE, and the way things are going I'm wouldn't be surprised if Northern don't have enough 319s in service by May to fulfil their and TPE's existing service commitments.

As for December 2015, plenty of services elsewhere need extra capacity, so I wouldn't be surprised to see this passed over again, ditto every other timetable change after that.

 

[Rail Ranger]

I think it will be touch and go to have an electric train service between Liverpool and Manchester at the start of the May 2015 timetable. Even then it will only be the Liverpool-Manchester Airport service. Don't forget that Northern are losing SIX 156s from the start of the May 2015 timetable and only gaining 2 loco-hauled trains for the Cumbrian Coast plus an unknown number of class 319 diagrams. There is also a wish/pledge to strengthen the Bolton corridor.

 

[spongsdad]

A recent meeting of the Rochdale Transport Group was told that the introduction of a passenger service on the Todmorden curve has been deferred to the December 2015 timetable, presumably because rolling stock will not now be available for a May 2015 start.

Not to worry; With a little bit of luck and a fair wind, by Feb 2nd we will have a signalling system that permits two way operation on the Curve. No rolling stock? No problem. We will be able to run virtual trains in both directions. The real ones can come a little later; OK a lot later.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

 

[pemma]

If that's the case, it really is an absolute disgrace.

Surely as Liverpool > Manchester becomes electrified the DMU's will immediately become available?!?! Or have I missed something !

What was supposed to happen last December was 2 x 156 diagrams on Manchester Airport-Liverpool diagrams would be released by 319s. A new early ECS move between Allerton and Chester consisting of the 2 x 156s released was supposed to replace ECS move 5H33, which consists of a 142 and a 150. The 142 should have then be used to add extra capacity to a Hazel Grove-Preston diagram and the 150 should have provided the additional train for the Todmorden extension.

However, DfT decided to send Northern DMUs to TPE. :roll:

 

[AdamHewitt]

A recent meeting of the Rochdale Transport Group was told that the introduction of a passenger service on the Todmorden curve has been deferred to the December 2015 timetable, presumably because rolling stock will not now be available for a May 2015 start.

Northern Rail are publicly denying that, for what it's worth - but we'll see!

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/claims-of-yet-more-delays-to-todmorden-curve-denied

 

[Flying Claret]

Operational in may, according to the Lancashire telegraph. Heard that before....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

BURNLEY and Accrington’s direct rail link to Manchester will begin on May 17, it has been announced.

The date, a Sunday, was declared by Burnley Council’s acting chief executive, Mick Cartledge, at a Burnley Bondholders event at Turf Moor yesterday.

The long-awaited service along Todmorden Curve route will take 53 minutes from Burnley, with a return journey to Manchester Victoria costing £9.80, around 200 business leaders were told.

On Saturday, the Lancashire Telegraph reported how signalling work on the Todmorden Curve was due to be completed this coming weekend.

The faster Blackburn to Manchester service was initially due to open May 2014, but was delayed until December 2014 and then May 2015 by problems with rolling stock and signalling.

The route to Manchester will start in Blackburn and call at Accrington and the revamped Burnley Manchester Road station.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...t_rail_link_to_Manchester_to_begin_on_May_17/

I've emboldened the bits that contain info pertaining to the service that I don't think was previously known.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's the Lancashire Telegraph for ya, hardly worth the paper it's printed on these days.

Considering that you made this comment not so very long ago about the Lancashire Telegraph, I am somewhat amazed to see you actually quoting from it..:roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Considering that you made this comment not so very long ago about the Lancashire Telegraph, I am somewhat amazed to see you actually quoting from it..:roll:

:roll: Merely so people knew what Flying Claret was referring to, as per the Forum Rules.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

:roll: Merely so people knew what Flying Claret was referring to, as per the Forum Rules.

"Operational in May" as stated by Flying Claret on the "Todmorden Chord" thread is surely only likely to be making reference to the long-delayed rail service. Or are there other matters upon this thread that it could also be making reference to?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

"Operational in May" as stated by Flying Claret on the "Todmorden Chord" thread is surely only likely to be making reference to the long-delayed rail service. Or are there other matters upon this thread that it could also be making reference to?

Well, he said 'according to the Lancashire Telegraph', so I went to look at where that was confirmed and then thought I would give the rest of it as, as I outlined, it confirmed a lot of not-before-seen detail. Honestly :roll:
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"Operational in May" as stated by Flying Claret on the "Todmorden Chord" thread is surely only likely to be making reference to the long-delayed rail service.

I should clarify I always believed that if you said something according to someone on here, you sourced as best you could, as obvious or brief as it may be. That's all I was doing...