TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

[Peter Sarf]

There are currently seven sets on Longsight:
68019/TP07
68020/TP02
68021/TP10
68022/TP09
68026/TP05
68031/TP06
68032/TP08


Many thanks for that. Those are all very good points. I was stupidly looking at it from a passenger perspective of overcrowding on three car Class 185s!

Crickey. So there are definitely enough 68+Mk5s in the right place for the six diagrams. Sort of indicates the 68+Mk5s are not an issue unless they are clogging up maintenance roads. Afterthought - of course Cleethorpes as well ?.

It seems from posts up thread that if only part of the three day diagram does not have a driver/crew available the whole three days are lost. Of course it is obvious that sets cannot be swapped for 68+Mk5s part way through a three day cycle.

Assuming above is true this makes me wonder if the show would work a lot better if the diagrams were only one day long instead of three. I would assume that would cut the chances of a 68+Mk5 being substituted by a 185 to one third. That would mean more sets starting off from Longsight daily. But surely plenty of them do daily cross the er Pennines (I am not sure) !.

Is there one depot that does not (yet) have enough drivers/crew or is it all over the TPE route ?.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Crickey. So there are definitely enough 68+Mk5s in the right place for the six diagrams. Sort of indicates the 68+Mk5s are not an issue unless they are clogging up maintenance roads. Afterthought - of course Cleethorpes as well ?.

...

Since the December timetable change, 68s have been in passenger service to Cleethorpes on a grand total of one day!!!

It's possible to count how many times they have been this far East on ECS/training etc moves (in the same period) using the fingers of one hand!

 

[sjpowermac]

Crickey. So there are definitely enough 68+Mk5s in the right place for the six diagrams. Sort of indicates the 68+Mk5s are not an issue unless they are clogging up maintenance roads. Afterthought - of course Cleethorpes as well ?.

It seems from posts up thread that if only part of the three day diagram does not have a driver/crew available the whole three days are lost. Of course it is obvious that sets cannot be swapped for 68+Mk5s part way through a three day cycle.

Assuming above is true this makes me wonder if the show would work a lot better if the diagrams were only one day long instead of three. I would assume that would cut the chances of a 68+Mk5 being substituted by a 185 to one third. That would mean more sets starting off from Longsight daily. But surely plenty of them do daily cross the er Pennines (I am not sure) !.

Is there one depot that does not (yet) have enough drivers/crew or is it all over the TPE route ?.

The trains to get the Class 68/Mk5a sets on to the diagrams are:

1P05 0242 Manchester Piccadilly-York
1P07 0359 Manchester Airport-Scarborough

both of which are cancelled on a regular basis. 1P05 is often planned to take diversionary routes e.g. Calder Valley, Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds, Leeds-York via Castleford. 1P07 can be similarly affected. I do wonder if there’s a problem with aligning the stars of crew who sign both Class 68s and the routes those trains are planned to operate over.

It’s a pity that some of the later trains that run directly over the Pennines aren’t diagrammed for Class 68s or some of the routes for 1P05/1P07 amended where possible.

Similar comments apply to 1P98 that works back from Scarborough to Manchester and then Longsight.

I’ve no doubt there are good reasons for arranging things as they currently are, but the results are there for all to see…

 

[Peter Sarf]

Since the December timetable change, 68s have been in passenger service to Cleethorpes on a grand total of one day!!!

It's possible to count how many times they have been this far East on ECS/training etc moves (in the same period) using the fingers of one hand!

Gosh. So Cleethorpes is rather predictable in a bad way !.

The trains to get the Class 68/Mk5a sets on to the diagrams are:

1P05 0242 Manchester Piccadilly-York
1P07 0359 Manchester Airport-Scarborough

both of which are cancelled on a regular basis. 1P05 is often planned to take diversionary routes e.g. Calder Valley, Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Leeds, Leeds-York via Castleford. 1P07 can be similarly affected. I do wonder if there’s a problem with aligning the stars of crew who sign both Class 68s and the routes those trains are planned to operate over.

It’s a pity that some of the later trains that run directly over the Pennines aren’t diagrammed for Class 68s or some of the routes for 1P05/1P07 amended where possible.

Similar comments apply to 1P98 that works back from Scarborough to Manchester and then Longsight.

I’ve no doubt there are good reasons for arranging things as they currently are, but the results are there for all to see…

You make me think, of course, any overnight engineering work is bound to impact such early starts as 1P05 and 1P07. I am wondering if not enough class 68 drivers are passed on the alternative routes ?. It could make more sense to have the 68+Mk5 diagrams start at a less fragile part of the day with 185s starting on earlier diagrams. But then the 68+Mk5 sets would not be doing so much work, but then they aren't anyway !. Alternative thought is that TPE prefer to drop 68+Mk5s as easily/often as possible - assuming class 185s incur lower running costs (fuel and/or track access charges). Tempting if passenger numbers have not reached the pre Covid levels. Most likely is that it is plans made without due regard to reality.

 

[Spartacus]

A little one for today, looks like 68025 going to Scarborough for a set (TP01 & 68028), returning to Longsight the long way via the Hope Valley.

Realtime Trains | 0A16 0901 Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 0A16 0901 departure from Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1137 Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1137 departure from Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

A little one for today, looks like 68025 going to Scarborough for a set (TP01 & 68028), returning to Longsight the long way via the Hope Valley.

Realtime Trains | 0A16 0901 Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 0A16 0901 departure from Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1137 Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1137 departure from Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I guess its a set that is (over) due a return to Longsight and cannot find a driver for a service train back to base !. I am getting fixated on the idea that the 68s+Mk5s can never leave Longsight or get trapped at the East end of their route.

 

[Killingworth]

A little one for today, looks like 68025 going to Scarborough for a set (TP01 & 68028), returning to Longsight the long way via the Hope Valley.

Realtime Trains | 0A16 0901 Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 0A16 0901 departure from Doncaster West Yard to Scarborough on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q32 1137 Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) | 19/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q32 1137 departure from Scarborough to Longsight T.M.D. (D) on 19/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Route learning opportunities?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Route learning opportunities?

Can only hope.....

 

[sjpowermac]

Route learning opportunities?

Can only hope.....

5Q32 1137 Scarborough-Longsight was operated by ROG (Rail Operations Group).

As a side note, it’s possible to see this info on Real Time Trains. The TSC (Train Service Code) is listed as 56661501. Helpfully the website linked below shows what each code represents. Hope that helps

scot-rail.co.uk » Train Service Codes

 

[Peter Sarf]

5Q32 1137 Scarborough-Longsight was operated by ROG (Rail Operations Group).

As a side note, it’s possible to see this info on Real Time Trains. The TSC (Train Service Code) is listed as 56661501. Helpfully the website linked below shows what each code represents. Hope that helps

scot-rail.co.uk » Train Service Codes

Doh !. But that is a useful link for the TSC codes.

 

[thecrofter]

TP09 with 68022 ran as 5E16 11:01 Longsight > Gascoigne Wood on Tuesday 21/02/23.

https://twitter.com/oxley1972/status/1628789539757080581?s=20

 

[BoroAndy]

Last 2 mornings at Scarborough Station, about 0630. Only trains visible, 3-car 185s. Have the Nova3s now gone into full hybernation? Admittedly I am not sure what the 0546 services were.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Last 2 mornings at Scarborough Station, about 0630. Only trains visible, 3-car 185s. Have the Nova3s now gone into full hybernation? Admittedly I am not sure what the 0546 services were.

It has been down to only one in six being 68+Mk5s a lot (most ?) of the time. So you could argue you have only a 1/6 chance of seeing a set at Scarborough.

 

[sbrignall72]

TP09 with 68022 ran as 5E16 11:01 Longsight > Gascoigne Wood on Tuesday 21/02/23.

https://twitter.com/oxley1972/status/1628789539757080581?s=20

Is this the only set on Gascoigne Wood now.

 

[sjpowermac]

Is this the only set on Gascoigne Wood now.

68034/TP13
68022/TP09

 

[sbrignall72]

68034/TP13
68022/TP09

Ok thank you

 

[37201xoIM]

Network Rail's track access Variable Usage Charge (pence per mile) is undoubtedly much higher for a locomotive and five coaches than for a 3-car 185. And fuel burn must be much higher too. While TPE will be under severe pressure from DfT to reduce marginal operating costs.

However, I have no idea if such considerations are a factor in 68/Mk5a usage decisions....

I'm not sure that's necessarily right - I will admit it's a while since I've seen any VTAC charge nunbers for 185s, and I don't think I ever have for 68ers or Mark 5As, but they are pretty high per vehicle for 185s. This is because, as you'll remember, they are lardbutts weighing in at RA5 for every vehicle (the same as a Deltic!)... a 68 is RA7, and I would presume RA1 for the five coaches. But of course, if you short-form your replacement you've only 3 lardbutt vehicles to worry about rather than 6...!

In similar vein, a 185 has three diesel engines producing in total 2,250hp - a 68 churns out 3,800hp on full thrash... though I'm not sure if the fuel consumption is necessarily directly proportionate to power output, not only because the engines are of different types but, more fundamentally, because you're obviously comparing three engines against just one. Anecdotally, yes, I have heard that fuel consumption of the Nova 3 sets is fairly high, not least because of the way the ETS works when the loco might otherwise be idling or shut down.

But in truth, I'm not sure whether either of these cost-lines is actually big enough in order-of-magnitude terms to make a big difference in the types of decisions we're discussing in this thread, really.

Yes! Arriva was shafted by the DfT and Network Rail. They had slowly started to turn things around when the DfT pulled the rug from underneath them.
TPE hid behind Northern at that point and have been hiding behind Avanti for far too long.... Problem is TPE is far too far gone to turn around, especially with the current problems within the industry.

To be fair, it's a bit harsh to say Arriva was "shafted" - important to emphasise that ARN did not lose the franchise because of poor performance (no franchise has, so far, ever been lost purely or primarily on performance grounds), but because it was financially unsustainable, i.e. ARN had run out of money. Costs had increased greatly and revenues not by as much as hoped-for, for various reasons which are even further off-topic for this thread! DfT / RNP could have renegotiated a deal with Arriva, but for various reasons this was not felt appropriate and the OLR option was taken instead (again, the rights and wrongs are well outside the scope of this thread!).

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm not sure that's necessarily right - I will admit it's a while since I've seen any VTAC charge nunbers for 185s, and I don't think I ever have for 68ers or Mark 5As, but they are pretty high per vehicle for 185s. This is because, as you'll remember, they are lardbutts weighing in at RA5 for every vehicle (the same as a Deltic!)... a 68 is RA7, and I would presume RA1 for the five coaches. But of course, if you short-form your replacement you've only 3 lardbutt vehicles to worry about rather than 6...!

In similar vein, a 185 has three diesel engines producing in total 2,250hp - a 68 churns out 3,800hp on full thrash... though I'm not sure if the fuel consumption is necessarily directly proportionate to power output, not only because the engines are of different types but, more fundamentally, because you're obviously comparing three engines against just one. Anecdotally, yes, I have heard that fuel consumption of the Nova 3 sets is fairly high, not least because of the way the ETS works when the loco might otherwise be idling or shut down.

But in truth, I'm not sure whether either of these cost-lines is actually big enough in order-of-magnitude terms to make a big difference in the types of decisions we're discussing in this thread, really.

The Network Rail Track Usage Price List in 2023-24 prices can be downloaded from

CP6 access charges - Network Rail

The access charges for Control Period 6 (CP6) apply until 31 March 2024 These price lists are consistent with the Office of Rail and Road’s (ORR) Final Determination, and are referenced in track and station access contracts. We publish annual updates to the price lists to reflect the effect of...

www.networkrail.co.uk

It gives a Variable Usage Charge of 21.46p/mile for a 185/M vehicle and 17.52p/mile for a 185HB/M. I don't know what HB stands for, but assume it is the middle car, so about 60p/mi total for a 3-car unit. A 68/0 is 76.01p/mi. Mk5a vehicles are not listed, but the default rate for a coach is 20.68p/mi. That totals about 180p/mi for a Nova 3, triple the charge for a single 185.

But, as you say, probably not a large proportion of the total marginal operating costs of the service.

 

[Halish Railway]

The Network Rail Track Usage Price List in 2023-24 prices can be downloaded from

CP6 access charges - Network Rail

The access charges for Control Period 6 (CP6) apply until 31 March 2024 These price lists are consistent with the Office of Rail and Road’s (ORR) Final Determination, and are referenced in track and station access contracts. We publish annual updates to the price lists to reflect the effect of...

www.networkrail.co.uk

It gives a Variable Usage Charge of 21.46p/mile for a 185/M vehicle and 17.52p/mile for a 185HB/M. I don't know what HB stands for, but assume it is the middle car, so about 60p/mi total for a 3-car unit. A 68/0 is 76.01p/mi. Mk5a vehicles are not listed, but the default rate for a coach is 20.68p/mi. That totals about 180p/mi for a Nova 3, triple the charge for a single 185.

But, as you say, probably not a large proportion of the total marginal operating costs of the service.

I'd have thought that MK5s would have a lower track access charge than a standard coach due to it having inside frame bogies and an aluminium body.

 

[D6130]

I'd have thought that MK5s would have a lower track access charge than a standard coach due to it having inside frame bogies and an aluminium body.

Unfortunately the inside frame bogies seem to punish the track heavily judging by the appallingly bumpy and jerky ride experienced by the passengers.

 

[37201xoIM]

I'd have thought that MK5s would have a lower track access charge than a standard coach due to it having inside frame bogies and an aluminium body.

Thanks to both for the above gen. Yes, I agree the coaches themselves are lightweight and should be reasonably track-friendly - and clearly your wider point stands too.

For what it's worth, they list values for Mark 1, Mark 2, Mark 3, Mark 4 and Mark 4a (sic - what's that??) of (respectively) 8.19, 8.70, 12.00, 20.68 and 13.70 pence per mile. I'll admit that I'm very surprised the 185s' rates are so low.

 

[Intercity110]

does anyone know when/why the TPE MK5s got dragged along the northampton loop? it was a semi-regular occurrence last summer.

 

[D6975]

does anyone know when/why the TPE MK5s got dragged along the northampton loop? it was a semi-regular occurrence last summer.

Milage accumulation runs.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks to both for the above gen. Yes, I agree the coaches themselves are lightweight and should be reasonably track-friendly - and clearly your wider point stands too.

For what it's worth, they list values for Mark 1, Mark 2, Mark 3, Mark 4 and Mark 4a (sic - what's that??) of (respectively) 8.19, 8.70, 12.00, 20.68 and 13.70 pence per mile. I'll admit that I'm very surprised the 185s' rates are so low.

I believe the Mk4 coaches were redesignated Mk4a after the "Project Mallard" refurbishment in the mid-noughties. I don't know why this should have reduced the charge rate though.

Clearly the charge rates must take account of other factors as well as axle loading, and presumably the Mk5/5a was too new to be assessed at the beginning of CP6, when the current charge rates were established (since then they have just been uprated in line with inflation). The default coach charge rate is the same as that of the Mk4, i.e. the highest hauled coach rate listed. So it seems likely that the Mk5a might get a lower charge rate in CP7.

 

[37201xoIM]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks, @Greybeard33. - Actually, now you say it, I've a recollection that GNER (I think it was still them?) did do something to the suspension of those SIG bogies on the Mark 4s that was about (IIRC) optimising their ride characteristics to 125mph top speed rather than the designed 140mph... but it's interesting to see that seems to have made such a big difference to their VTACs, isn't it.

 

[sjpowermac]

Milage accumulation runs

The Class 68/Mk5a sets completed fault free running/mileage accumulation runs in 2020.

does anyone know when/why the TPE MK5s got dragged along the northampton loop? it was a semi-regular occurrence last summer.

At that time there were regular runs with Class 68/Mk5a sets between Longsight/Crewe South Yard and Wolverton works.

The sets were visiting Wolverton for modification work. The most visible external difference was the connector that carries data between the coaches and locomotive. If you look at recent photos of the TPE Class 68s you will see an additional orange receptacle just to the side of the ETS cable.

Hope that helps

 

[31160]

Is there any indication of the diagrams for the new timetable will be, hoping for something more predictable

 

[Iskra]

Any news when Sheffield might see some 68’s in passenger service?

 

[BHXDMT]

Any news when Sheffield might see some 68’s in passenger service?

No change from the May timetable. Still just 1B64 0543 Man Airport to Cleethorpes and 1B85 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool as 68s. Still reliant on crews being competent, but refreshes have been ongoing recently.

 

[CAF397]

No change from the May timetable. Still just 1B64 0543 Man Airport to Cleethorpes and 1B85 1524 Cleethorpes to Liverpool as 68s. Still reliant on crews being competent, but refreshes have been ongoing recently

The sole 68 diagram is based around an out and back diagram from to/from Longsight, as opposed to trying to resource 2 diagrams and use Doncaster for an overnight stabling location.

Apparently it will be easier to resource.