Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[JonathanH]

6%ish with no major strings (as per Scotland) would settle the dispute and avoid the ongoing cost to the economy, now £3bn and climbing according to The Times.

Would people really settle for 6%?

Even a £3bn cost to the economy is not much to the government itself compared to the cost of meeting a 6% pay increase across the entire public sector.

From https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/public-sector-pay.

The total public sector pay bill was around £235 billion in the 2021/22 financial year – with central government pay (which includes UK government departments, parliament, most public bodies and the devolved administrations) costing about £165 billion and local government about £70 billion.

So that is £14.1bn this and every year to give everyone in the public sector a 6% pay rise.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Would people really settle for 6%?

Even a £3bn cost to the economy is not much to the government itself compared to the cost of meeting a 6% pay increase across the entire public sector.

From https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/public-sector-pay.


So that is £14.1bn this and every year to give everyone in the public sector a 6% pay rise.

But at least a third of that will go back to the government in taxes.

 

[Starmill]

So that is £14.1bn this and every year to give everyone in the public sector a 6% pay rise.

To be fair that as a gross figure sounds like a bargain to me.

 

[baz962]

Would people really settle for 6%?

Even a £3bn cost to the economy is not much to the government itself compared to the cost of meeting a 6% pay increase across the entire public sector.

From https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/public-sector-pay.


So that is £14.1bn this and every year to give everyone in the public sector a 6% pay rise.

The 3 billion though if true is only for a few weeks. Although the strikes have been going on for a few months, it's only been a few days here and there and even with days before and after being affected it all adds up to maybe a months worth. So if you add in drivers as at my place we have only been on strike three days and no services run , compared to a reduced service for the RMT strikes and you could add another few hundred million to that. Then times that by around twelve months and you are looking at much more than three billion potentially.

 

[CE142]

Would people really settle for 6%?

Even a £3bn cost to the economy is not much to the government itself compared to the cost of meeting a 6% pay increase across the entire public sector.

From https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/public-sector-pay.


So that is £14.1bn this and every year to give everyone in the public sector a 6% pay rise.

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

 

[Dai Corner]

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

TfW staff did. Well, 6.6% with a few minor productivity tweaks. But then they work for a Labour Government.

 

[Facing Back]

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

What figure would you settle for?

 

[Thirteen]

6%+ for DfT controlled TOCs is more likely to be accepted if non DfT TOCs like ARL and TfW have or will be accepted that ball park.

Speaking of ARL, when is the result for the pay increase ballot going to be announced as it seems like ages since ASLEF put it to the members.

 

[baz962]

6%+ for DfT controlled TOCs is more likely to be accepted if non DfT TOCs like ARL and TfW have or will be accepted that ball park.

Speaking of ARL, when is the result for the pay increase ballot going to be announced as it seems like ages since ASLEF put it to the members.

Ballot closes on 16th

 

[Goldfish62]

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

While I'm very sympathetic to your cause you do realise that you're never going to get anything that matches the current cost of living? The government I'm sure would rather rip up every last mile of track and put you out of a job.

It should be pretty obvious by now that the government doesn't really care that much about the future of the railways.

 

[Wearsunscreen]

While I'm very sympathetic to your cause you do realise that you're never going to get anything that matches the current cost of living? The government I'm sure would rather rip up every last mile of track and put you out of a job.

It should be pretty obvious by now that the government doesn't really care that much about the future of the railways.

Had to reply to this utter nonsense.
The integrated rail plan is the largest commitment to rail investment ever and was announced in 2021. 96 billion.

The future is and will be rail travel for a variety of reasons, cost (should be cheaper), Emissions, reliability ( a joke in recent years). On a packed commuter train into London I'm still taking 1000+ into Central London. That's every train full multiple trains an hour into London core. Nothing else can compete in a city in regards to moving people around quickly, efficiently and at low cost.

100% reform needed, needs to be better management and better practices, lower pricing model (much like the rest of Europe).

My train company is the most profitable in the country and this paltry offer of 4 + 4 is a joke, the fact rdg is negotiating after saying the government isn't involved is a joke, the management do not want Sundays inside, it's cheaper to run on a voluntary system, management dont want to be doing rosters they frankly don't have a clue and it creates far more issues in them doing it.

I'm confident no strikes would be going forward if the government would allow local negotiation, the tocs know the budget and what they can or cannot afford. We are being used as a pawn in a game between the NHS, why constantly compare drivers to nurses otherwise?

 

[Goldfish62]

Had to reply to this utter nonsense.

So you said you were going to reply, yet in your reply there's little addressing my points and your first paragraph sounds like a DfT press release.

I will put to you, why has it taken over six months for the government to sanction initial pay offers to be made when those very offers could have been made last summer? That's a totally unnecessary six months of lost pay for staff, inconvenience and angst for passengers, future lost custom encouraging modal shift to roads, and six months worth of public money being used to bail out the TOCs.

That's a government that's deliberate prolonging a dispute irrespective of the damage that is being done as part of its wider ideological battle against the public sector.

 

[O L Leigh]

@Wearsunscreen @Goldfish62

Forgive me, but it appears that you're both agreeing with regard to the Government's role in this dispute. About the only thing that I see as being different is that one of you thinks the Government would be happy to close the network altogether while the other disagrees and is highlighting how vital it is in terms of moving large numbers of people efficiently, which is crucial to our country's economic activity.

 

[Wearsunscreen]

So you said you were going to reply, yet in your reply there's little addressing my points and your first paragraph sounds like a DfT press release.

I will put to you, why has it taken over six months for the government to sanction initial pay offers to be made when those very offers could have been made last summer? That's a totally unnecessary six months of lost pay for staff, inconvenience and angst for passengers, future lost custom encouraging modal shift to roads, and six months worth of public money being used to bail out the TOCs.

That's a government that's deliberate prolonging a dispute irrespective of the damage that is being done as part of its wider ideological battle against the public sector.

My opinion is that they are using the very public train strikes as a battering ram against the NHS nurses strike. They are trying to resist setting a precedent of giving into the railway therefore allowing them to resist the nurses. Sunak has said their is no money for payrises for them this year. The offer the rdg made will never pass and they know that. This is politics at play.

To suggest the government doesn't care about rail travel anymore is incorrect and would be incredibly self harming to the country if that was true. If you was yo ask me what I would take to end our dispute, it would 8.6% with no strings back dated to October 22 and a future rpi pay deal in October 23. Deal already done and Precedent set by another London toc.

@Wearsunscreen @Goldfish62

Forgive me, but it appears that you're both agreeing with regard to the Government's role in this dispute. About the only thing that I see as being different is that one of you thinks the Government would be happy to close the network altogether while the other disagrees and is highlighting how vital it is in terms of moving large numbers of people efficiently, which is crucial to our country's economic activity.

You are correct.

 

[43066]

While I'm very sympathetic to your cause you do realise that you're never going to get anything that matches the current cost of living? The government I'm sure would rather rip up every last mile of track and put you out of a job.

It should be pretty obvious by now that the government doesn't really care that much about the future of the railways.

I think most people do accept this. The calls for RPI increases are more of a negotiating starting point (it’s amazing how certain aspects of the media don’t seem to understand the concept of a negotiation!).

Expecting something equivalent to the average private sector pay rise (ie of the order of 6-7%), without major Ts and Cs changes, seems fair and reasonable.

@Wearsunscreen @Goldfish62

Forgive me, but it appears that you're both agreeing with regard to the Government's role in this dispute. About the only thing that I see as being different is that one of you thinks the Government would be happy to close the network altogether while the other disagrees and is highlighting how vital it is in terms of moving large numbers of people efficiently, which is crucial to our country's economic activity.

This! I can completely see @Goldfish62 ’s point.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

You might have no choice. Although 6% may still be a pay cut, it's better than 0%

 

[TrainSpy]

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

Strange possibly, but as someone close to the HR side of things in TOC land, hardly different to Unions who regularly announced strike dates to the MSM before officially telling operators or members. Lots of hot air and faux outrage blowing around from everyone at the moment!

Mick's tweets late Friday night appeared to confirm he'd received the offer so I think the message to members went out before they'd checked with him.

No I wouldn't settle for 6%, that is a pay cut.
The amount that this gang of corrupt Tories have given the TOCs to indemnify them from the costs of our Strike Action would have given us a far bigger pay rise than 6% and still had millions left over.

But its not an indemnity - its how the TOC contracts have worked since Covid.

 

[choochoochoo]

Agreed. It seems a very strange & somewhat unprofessional approach by RDG but then I suppose on previous conduct we shouldn’t be surprised.

Very strange seeing that Sunak said yesterday on his BBC interview that pay negotiations details shouldn't be discussed in public when he was asked about nurses pay.

 

[TrainSpy]

Not sure anyone's discussing details of the negotiation - just the offer as a result of the negotiation

 

[choochoochoo]

Not sure anyone's discussing details of the negotiation - just the offer as a result of the negotiation

Seeing it hadn't even been put to ASLEF at the point it was released suggests it is more details of the negotiation rather than the result of a negotiation.

If Sunak wasn't prepared to discuss ANY aspect of the nurses negotiations publicly why are the RDG broadcasting fine details of this offer ?

 

[Facing Back]

Seeing it hadn't even been put to ASLEF at the point it was released suggests it is more details of the negotiation rather than the result of a negotiation.

If Sunak wasn't prepared to discuss ANY aspect of the nurses negotiations publicly why are the RDG broadcasting fine details of this offer ?

The RDG are conducting the negotiations with the TOCs, Sunak isn't so I guess it is down to them what they release, not him.

Sunak isn't conducting the negotiations with the nurses either (regardless of how much they would like him to) so the same would apply.

Yes you can argue the toss about the treasury or the PM "pulling the strings" or "setting parameters for a settlement" if you like, but that is not the same as "taking part in the negotiations".

The unions are perfectly happy to use the media for as much PR as they can get, I don't see any reason why the other side shouldn't do the same and get their "reasonable" anchor offer into the public domain.

 

[TrainSpy]

Seeing it hadn't even been put to ASLEF at the point it was released suggests it is more details of the negotiation rather than the result of a negotiation.

If Sunak wasn't prepared to discuss ANY aspect of the nurses negotiations publicly why are the RDG broadcasting fine details of this offer ?

That would be fine, except Mick's tweets late on Friday infer that he had received an offer - contrary to the texts the union had sent to members previously.

Sending to the press before sending to Aslef would be pretty rum, but outlining the aspects of the deal after sending (which Mick appears to have confirmed) seems fair game. Pretty sure Mick was doing interviews most of last week, outlining his negotiating position, and suspect he didn't ask RDG for permission for that!

I think its difficult to criticise TOCS for talking to the press about a deal unless you also criticise the union. FWIW I'm doing neither!

 

[choochoochoo]

That would be fine, except Mick's tweets late on Friday infer that he had received an offer - contrary to the texts the union had sent to members previously.

Sending to the press before sending to Aslef would be pretty rum, but outlining the aspects of the deal after sending (which Mick appears to have confirmed) seems fair game. Pretty sure Mick was doing interviews most of last week, outlining his negotiating position, and suspect he didn't ask RDG for permission for that!

Not really what ASLEF/Whelan are saying today:

'After six and a half months waiting for a response to our reasonable request for an increase in pay for our members who have not had one since 2019, the RDG sent out an offer at the end of play on Friday and released elements to the press and media before we had even seen it'

 

[Facing Back]

Not really what ASLEF/Whelan are saying today:

'After six and a half months waiting for a response to our reasonable request for an increase in pay for our members who have not had one since 2019, the RDG sent out an offer at the end of play on Friday and released elements to the press and media before we had even seen it'

possibly released to both at much the same time and the press were faster picking up on it

 

[dk1]

Very strange seeing that Sunak said yesterday on his BBC interview that pay negotiations details shouldn't be discussed in public when he was asked about nurses pay.

They get more unscrupulous by the day.

 

[ComUtoR]

You might have no choice. Although 6% may still be a pay cut, it's better than 0%

I think there are some that would rather take zero than agree to the condition changes.

The Government want the changes to the terms and conditions. If anything, they absolutely need them. Those changes come at a price and the Gov is playing low ball.

If the Gov offered 4% with no changes to terms the conversation would be a lot different.

The railway does need to change and most staff are willing to accept that. Just not at the price offered.

 

[dk1]

Oh dear. It’s not looking good after todays meeting then.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think there are some that would rather take zero than agree to the condition changes.

The Government want the changes to the terms and conditions. If anything, they absolutely need them. Those changes come at a price and the Gov is playing low ball.

If the Gov offered 4% with no changes to terms the conversation would be a lot different.

The railway does need to change and most staff are willing to accept that. Just not at the price offered.

Surely, it's the changes to terms that is the key requirement for the government to achieve ?
Aren't pay increases only going to happen once the changes have been agreed?

 

[12LDA28C]

I'd be very surprised if that 'offer' even gets put to the members, although most drivers I know would vote to accept in the region of 5 to 6 per cent, dependent on conditions attached. Nobody is seriously expecting a rise in line with inflation.

 

[43066]

I'd be very surprised if that 'offer' even gets put to the members, although most drivers I know would vote to accept in the region of 5 to 6 per cent, dependent on conditions attached. Nobody is seriously expecting a rise in line with inflation.

Yep same experience here. I suspect a resolution may be closer here than on the RMT side, though, as there’s no “red line” DOO type issue.