Train drivers offered pay rise in bid to end strikes

[FR510]

This is why the negotiations should be done individually between TOCs and ASLEF. This one size fits all approach doesn't work. Some TOCs already have Sundays inside and a 4% pay increase is worth more to a LNER driver than a SE driver. It's hardly a level playing field across the board.

 

[Facing Back]

It’s complicated enough as it is without letting the general public have a choice or get involved haha.

Haha indeed. And as it happens we can do neither really! But clearly both sides have decided to involve the general public otherwise why would they bother with all of the briefings, leaks and media appearances?

 

[HL7]

Surely, it's the changes to terms that is the key requirement for the government to achieve ?
Aren't pay increases only going to happen once the changes have been agreed?

The government can desire as many changes to terms and conditions as they like but in this economic environment they’ll be lucky to get a no strings agreement for below 7%.

They haven’t made a serious offer and Steve Montgomery at the RDG knows that any changes to drivers terms and conditions will demand a premium or they won’t be achieved.

Looks like a waste of everyones time.

 

[Thirteen]

This is why the negotiations should be done individually between TOCs and ASLEF. This one size fits all approach doesn't work. Some TOCs already have Sundays inside and a 4% pay increase is worth more to a LNER driver than a SE driver. It's hardly a level playing field across the board.

It's telling that the TOCs that have deals in place are non DfT.

 

[Facing Back]

This is why the negotiations should be done individually between TOCs and ASLEF. This one size fits all approach doesn't work. Some TOCs already have Sundays inside and a 4% pay increase is worth more to a LNER driver than a SE driver. It's hardly a level playing field across the board.

Practically I'm sure you are right, but are the unions not committed to full nationalisation, which will presumably lead to harmonisation of terms and conditions including pay? Also drivers at least (I'm not sure about other roles) have benefited greatly from the fragmentation and the ability to move around. The government seems to have recognised this and perhaps doesn't want to play that game any more.

 

[FR510]

Practically I'm sure you are right, but are the unions not committed to full nationalisation, which will presumably lead to harmonisation of terms and conditions including pay? Also drivers at least (I'm not sure about other roles) have benefited greatly from the fragmentation and the ability to move around. The government seems to have recognised this and perhaps doesn't want to play that game any more.

Harmonisation of pay would take years. Drivers at LNER for instance would never accept a pay cut and drivers at SE etc aren't likely to get a £15k pay rise. I'm sure ASLEF will understand that. I cannot see any easy solution to the current mess!

 

[43066]

Practically I'm sure you are right, but are the unions not committed to full nationalisation, which will presumably lead to harmonisation of terms and conditions including pay? Also drivers at least (I'm not sure about other roles) have benefited greatly from the fragmentation and the ability to move around. The government seems to have recognised this and perhaps doesn't want to play that game any more.

On the surface, yes. But this will be difficult to reverse after 25 years of divergence. We now have circa. £25k between highest and lowest paid TOCs, and a wide range of other Ts and Cs.

 

[Facing Back]

Harmonisation of pay would take years. Drivers at LNER for instance would never accept a pay cut and drivers at SE etc aren't likely to get a £15k pay rise. I'm sure ASLEF will understand that. I cannot see any easy solution to the current mess!

On the surface, yes. But this will be difficult to reverse after 25 years of divergence. We now have circa. £25k between highest and lowest paid TOCs, and a wide range of other Ts and Cs.

Agreed.

I'm curious if anyone has any ideas. Other than the government using a big stick leading to many years of major disruption or the TOCs slowly introducing incremental change leading to years of disruption.

Leave it alone? I'm not sure that is going to wash in the current climate either?

 

[Horizon22]

Obviously it's very different if you're a Southeastern driver who doesn't get paid much, compared to a LNER or EMR driver who are on 70k!

People don’t generally care about such specifics and will take the headline figure of a LNER driver on overtime even if 99% of the grade isn’t on that.

On the surface, yes. But this will be difficult to reverse after 25 years of divergence. We now have circa. £25k between highest and lowest paid TOCs, and a wide range of other Ts and Cs.

Indeed, you can’t exactly cut wages and you better believe people will be benchmarking to the highest wage.

 

[43066]

Agreed.

I'm curious if anyone has any ideas. Other than the government using a big stick leading to many years of major disruption or the TOCs slowly introducing incremental change leading to years of disruption.

Leave it alone? I'm not sure that is going to wash in the current climate either?

They’ll likely agree something with all TOCs as a sticking plaster (as they seem to be attempting with ASLEF, less so the RMT), then kick the can down the road on the basis it’s all too difficult? Much the same reasons why GBR seems to have ground to a halt, yet more “jam tomorrow”.

They’ll likely be out of power at the next election anyway.

 

[Thirteen]

Uniform pay deals and T&Cs is unlikely given that there are number of non DfT TOCs which have their own pay deals and T&Cs.

 

[Annetts key]

thats what I keep reading. But to the general public surely the difference between sundays inside and committed sundays is invisible - in both cases the trains run on Sunday. I thought the TOC offer was likely to turn out to be more aligned with a full roll-out of committed sundays

Tell me, in the days of British Railways prior to 1991, did they run trains on Sundays or not? Only back then the vast majority (if not all) railway employees worked Sunday turns as overtime, as Sundays were not part of the working week for the vast majority (if not all) employees.

If the government really want Sunday working to be part of normal life, why don’t they just introduce a law that makes Sundays a normal working day for everyone in this country? {Yes I know the reasons they won’t, no need to answer}.

It is strange how no one in the media asks the politicians about their outdated workplace practices…

 

[Facing Back]

Tell me, in the days of British Railways prior to 1991, did they run trains on Sundays or not? Only back then the vast majority (if not all) railway employees worked Sunday turns as overtime, as Sundays were not part of the working week for the vast majority (if not all) employees.

If the government really want Sunday working to be part of normal life, why don’t they just introduce a law that makes Sundays a normal working day for everyone in this country? {Yes I know the reasons they won’t, no need to answer}.

It is strange how no one in the media asks the politicians about their outdated workplace practices…

I think you have quite nicely made by point for me. 2023 is not 1991. Times have moved on. Possibly less so on the railway than the rest of real life.

I think the public want Sunday to be part of normal life, and is an increasing amount of circumstances it is. The government is responding to that.

I don't have a vested interest in whether Sundays are committed overtime, within the working week or trains are staffed by people from Mars, I simply want a reliable service which a schedule which accomodates the number of people travelling.

I agree with your last point about outdated working practices on a Sunday. Perhaps a moderate trade union leader could gently lead the media to make that point or lobby sympathetic parliamentarians? The last I heard the unions representing shop workers were vehemently against it.

 

[TreacleMiller]

It's interesting as since joining the industry I'm regularly asked when waiting to pickup a set or head home what Im earning, especially by passangers in first.

They nearly all seem to think that 45-50k is too much so there face when you tell them what the TOC pays is usually a picture.

 

[dk1]

It's interesting as since joining the industry I'm regularly asked when waiting to pickup a set or head home what Im earning, especially by passangers in first.

They nearly all seem to think that 45-50k is too much so there face when you tell them what the TOC pays is usually a picture.

Tell them to either mind their own business or ask them how much money they have in the bank. Bloody cheek.

 

[Facing Back]

It's interesting as since joining the industry I'm regularly asked when waiting to pickup a set or head home what Im earning, especially by passangers in first.

They nearly all seem to think that 45-50k is too much so there face when you tell them what the TOC pays is usually a picture.

really? Its rather rude to ask a stranger what they are earning

Tell them to either mind their own business or ask them how much money they have in the bank. Bloody cheek.

I promise if I am elected president of the united state then I will publish my tax returns.

 

[dk1]

really? Its rather rude to ask a stranger what they are earning

I’ve worked on the railway for 38+ years & never once been asked this question. Rest assured that they’d get short sharp shrift if they did dare ask me such.

really? Its rather rude to ask a stranger what they are earning


I promise if I am elected president of the united state then I will publish my tax returns.

Ha ha

 

[43066]

Tell them to either mind their own business or ask them how much money they have in the bank. Bloody cheek.

I’ve been asked that once by an enthusiast holding a camera who clearly had “interesting” social skills. Never by a “normal” passenger.

 

[dk1]

I’ve been asked that once by an enthusiast holding a camera who clearly had “interesting” social skills. Never by a “normal” passenger.

Oh Lord there are plenty of them as you describe. Often also interested in baking cakes. Funny those we meet working on the railway.

 

[JonathanH]

I thought the unions wanted Sundays in the working week as it will mean more staff and therefore more members.

Couldn't Sunday in the working week be done by cutting services in the rest of the week while keeping the number of staff constant? Just a matter of spreading the shifts out.

 

[brad465]

They sounded understandably peeved in this afternoons email after the meeting with RDG & Co.

This is not limited to the rail unions involved, the nursing unions (or at least Unite most vocally), are not happy either and are getting the main headlines at the moment. Basically what's believed to be going on is the Government are trying to avoid reaching an agreement anywhere, because any sector that gets one will immediately strengthen the case for workers in other sectors. What's made this difficult for them though is nurses enjoy by far the strongest public support, as much as 67% from the last survey I saw just before Christmas, while RMT and ASLEF support is much lower. But if the nurses get a deal, then rail unions will be among many suddenly empowered to go further.

 

[Skie]

After months of the unions calling for ministers to actually engage, it was galling to hear Sunak try to respin it by saying ”I’m glad the unions accepted our invite to meet….”

 

[brad465]

After months of the unions calling for ministers to actually engage, it was galling to hear Sunak try to respin it by saying ”I’m glad the unions accepted our invite to meet….”

While a lot more should have been done earlier, what hasn't helped is we've had 3 PMs, 4 Chancellors and multiple other Ministers including for Transport in that time.

 

[farleigh]

It's interesting as since joining the industry I'm regularly asked when waiting to pickup a set or head home what Im earning, especially by passangers in first.

They nearly all seem to think that 45-50k is too much so there face when you tell them what the TOC pays is usually a picture.

That is very strange.

I don't know why there is such fuss about what a train driver earns. i am sure it is a fair wage but not anything to write home about, Probably in line with a main scale teacher or something similar.

 

[Facing Back]

After months of the unions calling for ministers to actually engage, it was galling to hear Sunak try to respin it by saying ”I’m glad the unions accepted our invite to meet….”

He should have said "finally" accepted our invitation to engage to really start the ball rolling.

Other than the obvious need to move up the food chain in any negotiation as "I'd like to offer more but I'm not empowered to..." is always rather annoying, I don't know what the unions expected from this "first" short meeting with ministers other than "you're aware of how much money we have to spend..." So I take the howls of unhappiness with a pinch of salt but I think the unions have won a victory - it is one step though.

This is not limited to the rail unions involved, the nursing unions (or at least Unite most vocally), are not happy either and are getting the main headlines at the moment. Basically what's believed to be going on is the Government are trying to avoid reaching an agreement anywhere, because any sector that gets one will immediately strengthen the case for workers in other sectors. What's made this difficult for them though is nurses enjoy by far the strongest public support, as much as 67% from the last survey I saw just before Christmas, while RMT and ASLEF support is much lower. But if the nurses get a deal, then rail unions will be among many suddenly empowered to go further.

Of course. If they have any sense there is a coordinated strategy amongst all of this to arrive at a consolidated set of public sector agreements which are likely to be broadly similar. In a perfect world I'd expect the ones to get the highest settlement to get it last, although in this case I don't expect that to happen.

 

[43066]

This is not limited to the rail unions involved, the nursing unions (or at least Unite most vocally), are not happy either and are getting the main headlines at the moment. Basically what's believed to be going on is the Government are trying to avoid reaching an agreement anywhere, because any sector that gets one will immediately strengthen the case for workers in other sectors. What's made this difficult for them though is nurses enjoy by far the strongest public support, as much as 67% from the last survey I saw just before Christmas, while RMT and ASLEF support is much lower. But if the nurses get a deal, then rail unions will be among many suddenly empowered to go further.

It is lower but it’s not tiny - around 40% in support IIRC, with a few % “don’t know” according to the last survey quoted by The Times, so not that far off 50/50.

A lot of the traditional Tory voter base can obviously be assumed to be against, but will vote for them whatever happens. As for swing voters and the Red Wall seat voters that got them their 80 seat majority in 2019? Not so clear cut. This is why they have to tread carefully and avoid coming across as too unreasonable.

So I take the howls of unhappiness with a pinch of salt but I think the unions have won a victory - it is one step though.

It does look as though there has been a change as it’s becoming clear that unions across many sectors are not giving up as quickly as the government had hoped, and indeed are doubling down. It’s starting to reflect very badly on the government and Sunak is no doubt worried about the upcoming local elections.

 

[Horizon22]

It does look as though there has been a change as it’s becoming clear that unions across many sectors are not giving up as quickly as the government had hoped, and indeed are doubling down. It’s starting to reflect very badly on the government and Sunak is no doubt worried about the upcoming local elections.

There's been a marked downward poll trend since last Summer when the wheels started falling off Johnson' premiership after one too many scandals and then Truss' approach really cemented that. They are 15-20% behind in the polls continually and presiding over a sustained period of industrial action over multiple industries won't be helping in any way. It adds to the sentiment of "nothing works in this country any more". Not sure they even know what their end game is with the ongoing strikes as it's seems rather entrenched.

ASLEF haven't been on strike as much but on the RMT side there's definitely some fatigue, especially with grades like signalling. So mabe its a slow war of attrition.

 

[CE142]

Tell me, in the days of British Railways prior to 1991, did they run trains on Sundays or not? Only back then the vast majority (if not all) railway employees worked Sunday turns as overtime, as Sundays were not part of the working week for the vast majority (if not all) employees.

If the government really want Sunday working to be part of normal life, why don’t they just introduce a law that makes Sundays a normal working day for everyone in this country? {Yes I know the reasons they won’t, no need to answer}.

It is strange how no one in the media asks the politicians about their outdated workplace practices…

There was never a problem covering Sunday work back in the days of BR, as our rates of pay were crap compared to now, and Sunday's were paid at Time and three quarters. Drivers and Guards would sell their own Grandmother for a Sunday! Especially if you could get 12 hours out of it, same for Rest Days which would be paid at Time and a half under BR, now it's mostly just time worked for the majority of TOCs that have a Rest Day work agreement.
Now we earn a decent rate of pay, so there's no need to work Sunday to make up for the crap rate of pay, unless of course you have to work a Sunday as your Company has Sunday as part of the working week.

 

[Thirteen]

This is not limited to the rail unions involved, the nursing unions (or at least Unite most vocally), are not happy either and are getting the main headlines at the moment. Basically what's believed to be going on is the Government are trying to avoid reaching an agreement anywhere, because any sector that gets one will immediately strengthen the case for workers in other sectors. What's made this difficult for them though is nurses enjoy by far the strongest public support, as much as 67% from the last survey I saw just before Christmas, while RMT and ASLEF support is much lower. But if the nurses get a deal, then rail unions will be among many suddenly empowered to go further.

I do think the nurses going on strike is a bigger deal because this is the first time they've done so in 100 years.

 

[Facing Back]

Now we earn a decent rate of pay, so there's no need to work Sunday to make up for the crap rate of pay, unless of course you have to work a Sunday as your Company has Sunday as part of the working week.

Presumably you have to work it, if it is committed overtime?

It does look as though there has been a change as it’s becoming clear that unions across many sectors are not giving up as quickly as the government had hoped, and indeed are doubling down. It’s starting to reflect very badly on the government and Sunak is no doubt worried about the upcoming local elections.

I agree that that the unions are not giving up quickly, and indeed are escalating their action - doubling down as you say. It is most certainly reflecting badly on the government in the eye of some but not all - as you said in an earlier post. I can't find the polls so my apology but I'm seeing a lot of "a plague on both of your houses" as well as "yes of course ... should earn more but we can't afford it at the moment".

Sunak no doubt expects to get his hat handed to him in the local elections but his eyes will be on the general - and he is going to "sort out the economy". If he is betting his political future on facing down the unions, forcing cost savings across the public sector and whatever the other parts of his 5 point plan are then I am not betting against a will to see this through.

I do think the nurses going on strike is a bigger deal because this is the first time they've done so in 100 years.

its getting a lot more press, but its quite binary - good and bad - 19% was an audacious opening gambit