Trans Pennine Express - Overpriced waste of space ?

[yorksrob]

We‘re all used toTPE. They‘re supposedly faster than local trains so they charge a whopping great premium.

Yet do they deserve the accolade of being express trains.
They are frequently overcrowded - fault of the Government for not ordering extra carriages we are told, Yet they‘re not the only ones without.

And Sundays. They seem to end up hideously overcrowded eventhough they run fewer trains and seem incapable of extending the ones they have with their existing stock.

Is it time this excuse for a franchise was put out of its misery.

 

[455driver]

Is it time this excuse for a franchise was put out of its misery.

Who is it that specifies how many units, how many services, and how many carriages are to be used on those services again?
I have forgotten, oh hang on its the DaFT isnt it! :roll:

So how many differences would happen if the franchisee was changed, I will give you a clue its less than 1.

 

[185]

The DfT pushed for Transpennine Express. Everyone loves a bargain, and most of the people occupying the reserved seats on Fridays & Sundays are on £4-£10 offer tickets.

Staff raised this point with the company as early as 2006, but the company still continued to sell as many of them as possible to claw every last penny.

Well run, Transpennine Express still has great potential to be a thriving operator, however under greedy slash and burn FirstGroup, that will never happen.

In 2003, managing director Vernon Barker was quizzed, "Will your bid for this franchise have big enough trains? The other bidder Arriva is offering 4-car sets?!" He denied the 185 3-cars were too small and said there was no problem. In 2008, he claimed the trains the government had provided were too small and the government was to blame. Brilliant.

I think the way forward will be the new PTE-run franchise. The Rail In the North Executive already has some good people in charge of a bid team at present.

 

[yorksrob]

Who is it that specifies how many units, how many services, and how many carriages are to be used on those services again?
I have forgotten, oh hang on its the DaFT isnt it! :roll:

So how many differences would happen if the franchisee was changed, I will give you a clue its less than 1.

All well and brilliant, yet other operators such as the much maligned Northern Rail have just as many restrictions imposed upon them and they manage to do ok without the rediculous premium

 

[Masboroughlad]

I have travelled with a few TOCs at weekends recently.... Virgin, XC, Arriva Wales, TPE, Northern.... all woefully overcrowded.

 

[tbtc]

We‘re all used toTPE. They‘re supposedly faster than local trains so they charge a whopping great premium

Do they charge a premium? On which journeys?

Huddersfield - Leeds?
Preston - Manchester?
York - Leeds?
Sheffield - Doncaster?

(if anything, TPE can be cheaper than Northern as they do advance fares whilst Northern generally don't)

Yet do they deserve the accolade of being express trains.
They are frequently overcrowded - fault of the Government for not ordering extra carriages we are told, Yet they‘re not the only ones without

Not sure that "express trains" require them to be fairly empty?

The good news is that most TPE journeys are going to be run by EMUs in a few years time, which will mean longer trains, faster services etc.

Realistically, what else were TPE meant to do, since the engines for 185 coaches couldn't be built any more after the Government's delay and they had to take on the Scottish services (to allow more Cheshire - London services to run). All the fault of the DfT, not TPE

 

[SkinnyDave]

What will happen with TPE anyway?
Will it be merged with Northern or kept separate?

 

[yorkie]

We‘re all used toTPE. They‘re supposedly faster than local trains so they charge a whopping great premium.

It is true that one of the first things TPE did, was put up the fares (in line with Government policy) that they set. However it's often possible to get around it, by purchasing tickets to slightly different destinations, where the fare is set by Northern, and finishing "short". In some cases TPE's fare rises appear to have invalidated certain routes, but we know that routes that were valid when the RG first was released are considered to be "protected" and some changes were made unlawfully, without DfT approval. It is legitimate to use those routes, in my opinion, and any dispute could get TPE into hot water.

The DfT chose to make a premium franchise, with higher fares, and I can't see that changing, and the higher fares aren't going to reduce.

We all have our tricks, I am not going to publish them so easily that TPE can attempt to abolish them, but Liverpool to Manchester, York to Manchester, York to Leeds, York to Huddersfield, and so on, all have cheaper options which bring the fares down to a level that is only a little higher than what they should be, rather than the extortionately bloated prices they now are.

It's a game of cat and mouse, and there's only one way to win: don't be the mouse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What will happen with TPE anyway?
Will it be merged with Northern or kept separate?

If they merged, it would be far easier for TPE to increase the fares which undercut their high fares.

So my vote is for the status quo to exist, as at least we can get around it at present!

Preston - Manchester?

Yes, this is one of the routes where they made the SVR restricted, and introduced a much more expensive SOR.

A classic example is Preston - Manchester Airport, which is also very easy to get around

York - Leeds?

This fare has increased at an alarming rate, so much so that Northern have introduced their own "via Harrogate" fares. There are at least 2 ways I know of, to get around the extortionate York - Leeds fares.

The PTE fares are obviously not fares they have an influence over.

(if anything, TPE can be cheaper than Northern as they do advance fares whilst Northern generally don't)

Northern now offer Advance fares on selected flows, however I think Yorksrob was comparing walk-up fares.

A journey such as York - Manchester for walk-up travel has more doubled in price for many walk-up passengers in around 10 years. Inflation is nowhere near that bad!

Fortunately there are loopholes and anomalies.

Not sure that "express trains" require them to be fairly empty?

The good news is that most TPE journeys are going to be run by EMUs in a few years time, which will mean longer trains, faster services etc.

Realistically, what else were TPE meant to do, since the engines for 185 coaches couldn't be built any more after the Government's delay and they had to take on the Scottish services (to allow more Cheshire - London services to run). All the fault of the DfT, not TPE

Agreed

 

[Masboroughlad]

It should be part of an intercity franchise.

Years ago Sea Containers were going to bid and put it with GNER. Sadly they pulled out....

I say split TPE and put some with East Coast, some with West. Or add it to XC.

 

[ainsworth74]

It should be part of an intercity franchise.

And that would improve things how exactly?

Years ago Sea Containers were going to bid and put it with GNER. Sadly they pulled out....

And then promptly went bust so probably a good thing all in all that they didn't...

I say split TPE and put some with East Coast, some with West. Or add it to XC.

Well in as much as Manchester - Edinburgh/Glasgow should be with ICWC I agree but again I don't see the advantage of sticking TPE with ICEC or ICXC?

 

[Eagle]

Sea Containers put in a lot of bids in the couple of years before they went bust. South West was definitely one of them, which they would have called GSWR (not to be confused with the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire Steam Railway).

 

[ianhr]

I agree, TPE are absolutely appalling.

In the 1980's there were 2tph on this route: one loco hauled York-Liverpool with 7-car(?) Mark 2's, and one 4-car Manchester-Hull dmu, i.e. 11 vehicles per hour, the route was not congested and generally ran reliably, most people got a seat without having to fight for it. We now have 4tph 3x3-car & one 2-car = 11 vehicles with fewer seats than previously, almost 1/3 of the space in the 185s is taken up by first class, disabled access toilets etc. and inadequate luggage space. The high frequency means that the route is now congested and few trains run to time, notwithstanding extremely slack point to point times. Almost all trains are overcrowded and the overall experience is unpleasant.

Apparently most passengers want longer trains and more seats but now that 10 185s will become available as a result of 350s taking over Manchester-Scotland diagrams First Group propose running yet another 3-car train per hour (Newcastle-Liverpool via Man Vic) rather than lengthening present diagrams to 6-car! How many trains do we need between York and Newcastle and who in their right mind would chose to travel over this stretch with TPE?!

First Group do not deserve to continue operating this franchise. They are always telling us how wonderful they are and how this is the best ever service on this route. The present timetable and rolling stock is unfit for purpose.

 

[yorkie]

Or add it to XC.

Hang on, TPE aren't that overpriced! Your proposal would make the situation even worse.

XC's fares are so badly overpriced that it is often well worth identifying fares set by TPE, for which the journey you want to make on XC is part of a valid route.

XC and TPE have employed the same tactic of taking an unrestricted regulated ticket that they can't increase as much as they want, making it heavily restricted, and then introducing a brand new ticket that costs an extortionate amount, which people who travel before a certain time have to use. But the difference is, XC do this tactic on all their routes, while TPE don't generally apply this to their longer distances, and the restrictions on XC are far more severe. TPE also don't restrict CDRs in the evenings, either.

So, as you can see, I strongly object.

 

[yorksrob]

Do they charge a premium? On which journeys?

Huddersfield - Leeds?
Preston - Manchester?
York - Leeds?
Sheffield - Doncaster?

(if anything, TPE can be cheaper than Northern as they do advance fares whilst Northern generally don't)



Not sure that "express trains" require them to be fairly empty?

The good news is that most TPE journeys are going to be run by EMUs in a few years time, which will mean longer trains, faster services etc.

Realistically, what else were TPE meant to do, since the engines for 185 coaches couldn't be built any more after the Government's delay and they had to take on the Scottish services (to allow more Cheshire - London services to run). All the fault of the DfT, not TPE

Yes they do charge a premium. Any route whose doors are darkened by TPE are always stupidly expensive. As others have posted, try Leeds -York for example.


Supposedly a premium franchise, so we are told. This suggests to me InterCity style catering and comfort, yet this is not what we get.

 

[telstarbox]

Is it not the case that the DfT are keen for Northern and TPE to merge from 2016 and that the merger is a done deal, with tendering for the new franchise to start in 2016?

 

[yorksrob]

What were TPE supposed to do realistically ?


Not pretend they are an InterCity franchise and charge stupid walk on fares would do it.

 

[telstarbox]

Yes they do charge a premium. Any route whose doors are darkened by TPE are always stupidly expensive. As others have posted, try Leeds -York for example.

For Leeds-York the SOR is £20.30 and the SVR is £16.70 - what do you think they should cost?

 

[johnnychips]

Could I just chuck in that I use the TPE south route from Doncaster to Man Airport a lot, and have always found it fine, (if a little overcrowded on Friday evenings sometimes), I don't find the fare excessive and there are usually advances available. Guards are an excellent, helpful bunch.

No idea what it's like on other lines.

 

[yorksrob]

For Leeds-York the SOR is £20.30 and the SVR is £16.70 - what do you think they should cost?

Should easily be ten pounds or under.

Even fares in the South between places such as Ashford and Canterbury/Hastings are less than that.

 

[yorkie]

It's less than £11 for savvy passengers using an anomaly, but the mere thought of paying £16 or £20 for a 25 mile return journey is crazy.

The Yorkshire Coastliner is only £7.50 for a Day Return, or £10.50 for a Period Return, and for many people may pick up from a more convenient location. The journey time is around twice as long if travelling centre-to-centre though, but it would be quicker for people travelling from south York to Leeds, or east Leeds to York.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it not the case that the DfT are keen for Northern and TPE to merge from 2016 and that the merger is a done deal, with tendering for the new franchise to start in 2016?

When they do I hope we get something Northern-esque.

 

[Manchester77]

I've never really found TPE to be that bad. I think that with electrification on the horizon we have a good opportunity to give the franchise a new start with new EMUs. If the 377/8s/387s do come up north to operate many of the overcrowding issues will hopefully be resolved with the availability to operate 8 car services (2x 4 car units coupled). Additionally as has been said before; if as part of the new ICWC franchise the Manchester - Scotland services are incorporated it would take a lot of strain off the TPE franchise. I do expect the TPE and Northern franchises to be merged since the current franchises expire on the same date however hopefully this will be good thing with the operator able to internally cascade the 185s to routes such as the Buxton line. I think the next few years have a lot install for the franchise and I hope that many of today's issues are addressed.

 

[harz99]

Wow; there's a lot of hatred for TPE in this thread. Sorry guys, but with very few exceptions I have nothing but good experiences on TPE. That goes for the Anglo Scottish which run within yards of my back door, and connecting services from Preston or Manchester.

I cannot say the same for Virgin or XC, and Northern have the dirtiest, most cramped and uncomfortable stock around - their guards are also the least customer facing of all on train staff I encounter, often they don't seem to be able to do much more than make muttered monosyllabic station announcements.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

South West was definitely one of them, which they would have called GSWR (not to be confused with the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire Steam Railway).

....or even the once noted Glasgow and South Western Railway.

 

[Ze Random One]

It's less than £11 for savvy passengers using an anomaly, but the mere thought of paying £16 or £20 for a 25 mile return journey is crazy.

The Yorkshire Coastliner is only £7.50 for a Day Return, or £10.50 for a Period Return, and for many people may pick up from a more convenient location. The journey time is around twice as long if travelling centre-to-centre though, but it would be quicker for people travelling from south York to Leeds, or east Leeds to York.

Even disregarding anomalies, the Anytime DAY return (at £15.80), and Offpeak DAY return (at £12.30) tickets are much more likely to be the appropriate ones for most travellers on this route.

I was quite surprised Anytime & Off-peak period returns exist at all, in the South East they're as rare as hens' teeth on any route that doesn't include an airport at one end.

To do an international comparison, I looked at a 27 mile journey into Frankfurt (Main)
That works out at €11 single, or €21.50 for a round trip, using a day ticket.
€21.50, at current exchange rates, is £18. The £12.30 Offpeak Day Return looks pretty good value against that.

Admittedly the day ticket includes local transport into the bargain, but remember PlusBus exists at both ends for £3 each. If you need it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is it not the case that the DfT are keen for Northern and TPE to merge from 2016 and that the merger is a done deal, with tendering for the new franchise to start in 2016?

Its not a done deal but at the moment the northern authorities want them merged and the Government isnt objecting, theres a prediction it could save £20m per year in management/running costs. If they do merge they plan to keep TPE as a sub brand (and add more TPE branded services) for express/long distance services to help passengers differentiate the quality and type of service (e.g. passenger choosing between taking a Northern and a TPE service would expect the TPE to stop less often, be quicker and have better seating). They would however be run as a single entity meaning vehicles and staff could cross cover, less duplication, etc...


As to the Operators themselves, as far as I know Serco/Abellio supports the merge while First Group/Keolis support the decentralisation but oppose the merger. You can see First Groups opinion below:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmtran/writev/railfran/m11.htm


The idea of a merger has moved on a bit thankfully, two years ago the Government was thinking of merging Northern and TPE then splitting them into a West of Pennines franchise and a East of Pennines franchise with the obvious problems that would entail of so many services crossing into each others management areas, loss of shared resources, loss of critical mass when franchises have been growing larger not smaller.

 

[34D]

I had a trip on TPE yesterday. Leeds to Manc: we were amazingly able to get a double seat. Return: we literally couldn't get on the first train we tried (3 car, from the airport) but the following train was 4 car and quiet.

It stopped being intercity for me when the last class 47s operated (1993ish?). Proper 6/7 coach train, with proper first class and always a trolley.

 

[Dunc108]

I had a trip on TPE yesterday. Leeds to Manc: we were amazingly able to get a double seat. Return: we literally couldn't get on the first train we tried (3 car, from the airport) but the following train was 4 car and quiet.

It stopped being intercity for me when the last class 47s operated (1993ish?). Proper 6/7 coach train, with proper first class and always a trolley.

I know Class 185 suitablility on certain long distance routes has been the topic of ongoing debate for a while - especially to Scotland where their lack of capacity is felt most strongly, often running as 3-car units. Bear in mind most Manchester - Scotland's upto the 1990's were worked by 7/8 coach Inter-City 'air-cons' & a '47'.

185s seem ok for Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services, but Scotland seems to be a very different story. Of course they have a very "Inter-Regional" rather than "Inter-City" look about them.

 

[harz99]

I know Class 185 suitablility on certain long distance routes has been the topic of ongoing debate for a while - especially to Scotland where their lack of capacity is felt most strongly, often running as 3-car units. Bear in mind most Manchester - Scotland's upto the 1990's were worked by 7/8 coach Inter-City 'air-cons' & a '47'.
185s seem ok for Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services, but Scotland seems to be a very different story. Of course they have a very "Inter-Regional" rather than "Inter-City" look about them.

Or up until TPE took the route on from Virgin, 5 car Voyagers.

Sadly the new electrics due from December will only slightly improve matters as although 4 car units they only have 30 more standard class seats, due in part to an additional disabled toilet, and similar luggage space to a 185.

Hopefully it will be possible from December for all the Anglo Scottish TPE services to be formed of two units, whether diesel or electric.

 

[Dunc108]

Or up until TPE took the route on from Virgin, 5 car Voyagers.

Sadly the new electrics due from December will only slightly improve matters as although 4 car units they only have 30 more standard class seats, due in part to an additional disabled toilet, and similar luggage space to a 185.

Hopefully it will be possible from December for all the Anglo Scottish TPE services to be formed of two units, whether diesel or electric.

Oh, yes I quite forgot about Voyagers! Yes I know some Sundays during the year some 185's doubled up to form a 6 car set to Edinburgh - much better, I guess in an ideal world every Scottish service would be 6 cars..! Its a shame the 180s had reliability problems as they would have been an ideal stopgap until Manchester - Scotland went electric, ambience more like the Mk2s & probably more room & comfort than a Voyager!

I remember taking a ride on the 180s when they were on lease to Northern between Preston & Manchester Victoria, I just loved their ambience & feel, they felt like a true Inter-City DMU.