TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[mangyiscute]

Hasn't tracking the buses on the trawscymru app been a thing for (I think) around a year if not longer by now? I'm pretty sure I remember doing it last summer

 

[Envoy]

Only the T1C, T4, T6, T7, T12 and T14 track vis bustimes. Some due to the operators willingly sharing all of their tracking data. Others because the route run into England and as such legally have to share tracking data.

The T1, T2, T3, T5, T10, T11, T19 don't currently track thought hopefully this will change when the app gets released

Unfortunately most buses in Wales don’t track as operators are not required to share the data

When I looked at the map, I just assumed that in the wilds of Wales that hardly any buses were operating. It is plain bonkers that this does not cover all operators. Why can’t the Welsh Government simply make it legal in Wales to share this information in the same way as it is in England?

 

[Dai Corner]

When I looked at the map, I just assumed that in the wilds of Wales that hardly any buses were operating. It is plain bonkers that this does not cover all operators. Why can’t the Welsh Government simply make it legal in Wales to share this information in the same way as it is in England?

It's always been legal. England have made it compulsory through Bus Open Data Service (BODS). The simplest thing would be for the Welsh Government to extend it to Wales.

Bus open data policy

The Bus Open Data Service (BODS) provides bus timetable, vehicle location and fares data for every local bus service in England.

www.gov.uk

 

[johntrawscymru]

The T5 and the loop from Aberystwyth bus station to the University.

The loop to the University has been discontinued due to objections from the drivers, who have said there is not enough time to do the loop and there were no passengers using the loop.

The on-line timetables and the printed timetables at bus stops still show the loop as existing even though it has been discontinued.

 

[rich.davies]

I took a trip on the T10 12.15 service from Corwen yesterday. 2 of us boarded and no one really got on until we got to Betws Y Coed, surely it must carry almost fresh air up until that point.

More people did get on after Betws, Bethesda and the outer limits of Bangor but can the Corwen to Betws leg be worth the cost to run? Surely the Fflecsi service would be better off instead, to cover that area?

T3 from Wrexham to Corwen was more loaded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I took a trip on the T10 12.15 service from Corwen yesterday. 2 of us boarded and no one really got on until we got to Betws Y Coed, surely it must carry almost fresh air up until that point.

More people did get on after Betws, Bethesda and the outer limits of Bangor but can the Corwen to Betws leg be worth the cost to run? Surely the Fflecsi service would be better off instead, to cover that area?

T3 from Wrexham to Corwen was more loaded.

I do find Corwen a bizarre terminus for this route. Why not carry it on to Llangollen, where people might want to go, or even Shrewsbury for rail connections? I guess it would require one more vehicle to do Llangollen, but surely that'd be worth it given how touristy that is.

Another sensible thing to do would be to find a suitable field in which to set up, and heavily promote, using the route as a P&R for the Ogwen Valley (which has a massive parking problem) for the very large number of daytrippers arriving in the National Park from the M54 direction.

 

[markymark2000]

I took a trip on the T10 12.15 service from Corwen yesterday. 2 of us boarded and no one really got on until we got to Betws Y Coed, surely it must carry almost fresh air up until that point.

More people did get on after Betws, Bethesda and the outer limits of Bangor but can the Corwen to Betws leg be worth the cost to run? Surely the Fflecsi service would be better off instead, to cover that area?

Any pax from Bethesda to Bangor don't cound as that is purely abstracting revenue from Arrivas commercial routes.

Corwen to Betws is pretty dead. They did have Fflecsi to cover the area but then they put the T10 on. Not sure if Fflecsi still serves the area a few days per week.

I do find Corwen a bizarre terminus for this route. Why not carry it on to Llangollen, where people might want to go, or even Shrewsbury for rail connections? I guess it would require one more vehicle to do Llangollen, but surely that'd be worth it given how touristy that is.

Another sensible thing to do would be to find a suitable field in which to set up, and heavily promote, using the route as a P&R for the Ogwen Valley (which has a massive parking problem) for the very large number of daytrippers arriving in the National Park from the M54 direction.

Corwen, while a blizzare place and I agree, Llangollen would be a nicer terminus, the issue is that Llangollen adds another 20 mins onto the journey each way (40 mins round trip) there are no passengers really from Coreen to Llangollen so it would overbus the area. Plus the T10 and T3 would end up still running pretty close to eachother as there are timed connections with the Ruthin 55 at Corwen.

The financials just don't add up. The only way the T10 would be extended is if the Llangollen 64 got put into Traws Cymru and so the bus ran Bangor to Llanarmon DC via Betws, Corwen, Llangollen and Chirk (T12 connection). 3h 10 min end to end. And that wouldn't generate many more passengers (beyond the existing 64 passengers moving services).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Corwen to Betws is pretty dead.

If it's that dead then cutting it back to Betws probably makes sense. And to be honest if I did that I'd suggest making it "Sherpa'r Wyddfa S10" instead, as while that network is mostly centred on the mountain that politics says they now can't name, it'd then primarily be a Snowdonia National Park local service, not a long distance one.

TBH even if they used the same number of vehicles, using the same vehicles to offer a higher frequency on that core section would be more use - two hourly might well put off walkers from using it as it's a long wait and there's no decent pub to wait in along the Ogwen Valley anywhere near any of the mountains.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If it's that dead then cutting it back to Betws probably makes sense. And to be honest if I did that I'd suggest making it "Sherpa'r Wyddfa S10" instead, as while that network is mostly centred on the mountain that politics says they now can't name, it'd then primarily be a Snowdonia National Park local service, not a long distance one.

TBH even if they used the same number of vehicles, using the same vehicles to offer a higher frequency on that core section would be more use - two hourly might well put off walkers from using it as it's a long wait and there's no decent pub to wait in along the Ogwen Valley anywhere near any of the mountains.

Even before it was introduced, I was very dubious about the T10. It seems like one of those route plans to fill a gap on a map rather than any established need. There are virtually no settlements (Pentrefoelas being the largest) en route between Betws and Corwen - it's a wide expanse of nothing. Don't think the idea of a P&R for Midlands traffic will be too attractive.

It should have been a Sherpa route (rather than a TrawsCymru). As you say, it could have two buses running hourly between Bangor station and Betws y Coed; I think that there was an S6 by Silver Star, back in the day, that did the route. It could run coordinated with the S1 between Betws and Capel.

 

[johntrawscymru]

can the Corwen to Betws leg be worth the cost to run?

Corwen to Betws is pretty dead.

If it's that dead then cutting it back to Betws probably makes sense.

The T10 was predicted to carry few passengers by this forum when it was first mooted and introduced.
Unfortunately whilst there are plenty of people reporting low numbers on the T10 the proof of the pudding would be in a comparison of Annual passenger numbers across the network. This would highlight underperforming services.
I would guess that the T12 would join the T10 in having low passenger volumes and therefore not be cost effective.

 

[Welshman]

And I also agree with Roger French in his recent blog that there should be better publicity for this service at Bangor Station.

Sherpa’r Wyddfa (that’s Snowdon Sherpa) get’s a boost

Tuesday 9th August 2022 I was last in Snowdonia on the erstwhile Snowdon Sherpa network of bus routes almost a year ago last September and concluded my blogged review with a hope the network would …

busandtrainuser.com

Not only is the bus information out of date [reference to Express Motors which ceased operations in ignominy some years back], but there is no positive information, not even a bus-stop flag, for the services which do run from there.

When I used the service a while ago, I was the only one who stayed on past the bus station, and the only one who boarded for the return journey some 20 minutes later [probably I was the only one who knew it was there].

Then they wonder why it is not better used.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The loop to the University has been discontinued due to objections from the drivers, who have said there is not enough time to do the loop and there were no passengers using the loop.

The on-line timetables and the printed timetables at bus stops still show the loop as existing even though it has been discontinued.

The timetables available online (dated 27th June (M-F) and 2nd July (SAT)) show no T5 services to the university on Saturdays and only two Mondays to Fridays. Are you trying to tell us that these final two runs to the university have also been discontinued? If not, then you may be correct about the bus stops (I don't know, I haven't been using the service and haven't looked), but the online information appears to be up-to-date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I also agree with Roger French in his recent blog that there should be better publicity for this service at Bangor Station.

Sherpa’r Wyddfa (that’s Snowdon Sherpa) get’s a boost

Tuesday 9th August 2022 I was last in Snowdonia on the erstwhile Snowdon Sherpa network of bus routes almost a year ago last September and concluded my blogged review with a hope the network would …

busandtrainuser.com

Not only is the bus information out of date [reference to Express Motors which ceased operations in ignominy some years back], but there is no positive information, not even a bus-stop flag, for the services which do run from there.

When I used the service a while ago, I was the only one who stayed on past the bus station, and the only one who boarded for the return journey some 20 minutes later [probably I was the only one who knew it was there].

Then they wonder why it is not better used.

As people tend these days to look up in advance, what they need is Llanberis, Bethesda and Pen y Pass in the railway fares system, or failing that a Snowdon Sherpa PlusBus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The T10 was predicted to carry few passengers by this forum when it was first mooted and introduced.
Unfortunately whilst there are plenty of people reporting low numbers on the T10 the proof of the pudding would be in a comparison of Annual passenger numbers across the network. This would highlight underperforming services.
I would guess that the T12 would join the T10 in having low passenger volumes and therefore not be cost effective.

The T12 effectively replaced the old D71 and 522 (S22) so at least there was an existing passenger base there with established travel patterns.

As discussed earlier, there may indeed be some merit in a service from Bangor to Betws y Coed. A service that connects the walking and tourist spots from Bangor/Betws could be useful in removing some of the raft of cars from along Llyn Ogwen.

I would be intrigued to see what, if any, research was undertaken to justify the run over to Corwen. In terms of "Proof of the pudding", it would not be in the aggregated figures for the T10 if much of that is simply abstracting custom from the existing Arriva services to Bethesda. You would need to see the detail on the specific, unique journeys by stop.

 

[Bwsbro]

TrawsCymru buses are now tracking on Bustimes

 

[Statto]

The T12 effectively replaced the old D71 and 522 (S22) so at least there was an existing passenger base there with established travel patterns.

As discussed earlier, there may indeed be some merit in a service from Bangor to Betws y Coed. A service that connects the walking and tourist spots from Bangor/Betws could be useful in removing some of the raft of cars from along Llyn Ogwen.

I would be intrigued to see what, if any, research was undertaken to justify the run over to Corwen. In terms of "Proof of the pudding", it would not be in the aggregated figures for the T10 if much of that is simply abstracting custom from the existing Arriva services to Bethesda. You would need to see the detail on the specific, unique journeys by stop.

The only thing about the T10 run to Corwen, is, isn't it supposed to connect with the T3?

 

[markymark2000]

The only thing about the T10 run to Corwen, is, isn't it supposed to connect with the T3?

It does indeed. on most trips connect with the T3 somehow and the 55 to Ruthin

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The only thing about the T10 run to Corwen, is, isn't it supposed to connect with the T3?

Yes indeed. However, I'd still be wondering about the market research (!) that backed up the introduction of such a route. The T3 is a long-standing route (the old D94 service) but the T10 apparently provides links that we didn't know we needed in the last 40-50 years.

 

[Runningaround]

The T10 was predicted to carry few passengers by this forum when it was first mooted and introduced.
Unfortunately whilst there are plenty of people reporting low numbers on the T10 the proof of the pudding would be in a comparison of Annual passenger numbers across the network. This would highlight underperforming services.
I would guess that the T12 would join the T10 in having low passenger volumes and therefore not be cost effective.

They take time to be noticed then need to run frequently enough to be worth using, I'd gather the County Councils will have data on who could use them based on where people travel to/from work.

Would that be the T12 that's busy and a significant service between Machynlleth and Newtown, is busy between Newtown and Welshpool, and from Oswestry south and north? If it ran later and more frequently it'd be of use for those passengers in villages without a train service wanting to travel beyond Shrewsbury.

The T2 was quiet until it was significantly strengthened and ran earlier and later, it's also competing with an hourly train service between Machynlleth and Aberystwyth and has the addition of the X28 and Ynyslas-Aberystwyth services, and they have all got busier.

Lesson is if you make a service worthwhile and leave less hanging around it becomes an alternative to the car, in an area where it's drummed into you that learning to drive is essential.

The timetables available online (dated 27th June (M-F) and 2nd July (SAT)) show no T5 services to the university on Saturdays and only two Mondays to Fridays. Are you trying to tell us that these final two runs to the university have also been discontinued? If not, then you may be correct about the bus stops (I don't know, I haven't been using the service and haven't looked), but the online information appears to be up-to-date.

Why would they run to the Uni on a weekend during the Summer holiday? The hospital is the only reason to head there and this is served far better by the town services and everything heading north.
As it is it's served in the morning and evenings during the week, which fits in with a University day.

The only thing about the T10 run to Corwen, is, isn't it supposed to connect with the T3?

The T3 connects with others too. But the more the merrier. I just wish they served the working day better rather than pensioners on a free bus pass.

Has splitting the long Traws Cymru services into sections improved reliability and the service?

The T4 is split up to four times. The T5 at least twice . I'm sure this is done as very few passengers travel the whole route as alternatives are often better, quicker and faster so it serves the core passengers base rather than a tiny few who travel the whole end to end.

Aberystwyth to Haverfordwest/Fishguard is quicker on the T1 and then train and offers better frequencies.

Newtown to Cardiff by bus is only used by a tiny few during the Six nations the train is far better, and it looks that its been split to serve the popular journeys.
Its only the T2 and T3 up North that generally serve end to end as the alternative train is actually far slower than the bus.

 

[markymark2000]

Would that be the T12 that's busy and a significant service between Machynlleth and Newtown, is busy between Newtown and Welshpool, and from Oswestry south and north? If it ran later and more frequently it'd be of use for those passengers in villages without a train service wanting to travel beyond Shrewsbury.

The T12 has the advantage that it took over multiple existing tenders. The only new bits were really Oswestry to Wrexham and no one knows what that bit is there. What doesn't help matters though on the T12 is the fares. The fare situation is bonkers on it and it's certainly hard to get good value as 1Bws finishes at Chirk and Powys Day Rover starts at Oswestry. Unless your journey is solely on the T12, you'd struggle to get good value.

The T2 was quiet until it was significantly strengthened and ran earlier and later, it's also competing with an hourly train service between Machynlleth and Aberystwyth and has the addition of the X28 and Ynyslas-Aberystwyth services, and they have all got busier.

Lesson is if you make a service worthwhile and leave less hanging around it becomes an alternative to the car, in an area where it's drummed into you that learning to drive is essential.

In fairness, Mach-Aber trains are patchy. They are replaced by buses so often, especially through to Shrewsbury and beyond.

Why would they run to the Uni on a weekend during the Summer holiday? The hospital is the only reason to head there and this is served far better by the town services and everything heading north.
As it is it's served in the morning and evenings during the week, which fits in with a University day.

It was good for another bus to link to the Uni rather than forcing people onto the T2 but at the same time, it's not worth killing the reliability for. Students would stick with Mid Wales Travel as that is where their demand is.

The T3 connects with others too. But the more the merrier. I just wish they served the working day better rather than pensioners on a free bus pass.

Unfortunately, the entitled free loaders (sorry, concessionary pass holders) are the vocal ones when it comes to running buses.

Has splitting the long Traws Cymru services into sections improved reliability and the service?

The T4 is split up to four times. The T5 at least twice . I'm sure this is done as very few passengers travel the whole route as alternatives are often better, quicker and faster so it serves the core passengers base rather than a tiny few who travel the whole end to end.

The T4 and T5 are split because they have to be for driving hours rules. If it went straight through without the 'split', drivers would be subject to EU driving rules. If the route is split, it means they can drive on domestic rules which are much more relaxed than EU rules.

 

[Runningaround]

The T12 has the advantage that it took over multiple existing tenders. The only new bits were really Oswestry to Wrexham and no one knows what that bit is there. What doesn't help matters though on the T12 is the fares. The fare situation is bonkers on it and it's certainly hard to get good value as 1Bws finishes at Chirk and Powys Day Rover starts at Oswestry. Unless your journey is solely on the T12, you'd struggle to get good value.

It hasn't taken over all the services rather than changed it's name. The T12 is still busy despite the claim made earlier in the thread that it's not. It also covers a similar route you can do by train, if it visited and timed itself with a train service it would be far more useful for those not served by a train.

In fairness, Mach-Aber trains are patchy. They are replaced by buses so often, especially through to Shrewsbury and beyond.


It was good for another bus to link to the Uni rather than forcing people onto the T2 but at the same time, it's not worth killing the reliability for. Students would stick with Mid Wales Travel as that is where their demand is.

They still run hourly, and later than the bus. The T2, X28, a few Aber town services plus anything heading North from Aber serve the University and hospital. Other than the current morning and evening service on weekdays , there is no need to push the T5 up there unless even hospital for hospital appointments unless you are within 45 minutes there's not much use in the two hourly T5, its far better to let passengers get off in town and then use the more frequent services.

Unfortunately, the entitled free loaders (sorry, concessionary pass holders) are the vocal ones when it comes to running buses.

Yet who would use the Bus during the day?

The T4 and T5 are split because they have to be for driving hours rules. If it went straight through without the 'split', drivers would be subject to EU driving rules. If the route is split, it means they can drive on domestic rules which are much more relaxed than EU rules.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The T4 and T5 are split because they have to be for driving hours rules. If it went straight through without the 'split', drivers would be subject to EU driving rules. If the route is split, it means they can drive on domestic rules which are much more relaxed than EU rules.

Do passengers have to change bus on the T4? Pre-COVID at least (I've not been out much since), the T5 was split to such an extent that you often had to change bus in Cardigan (there may have been the odd one that worked through, which did happen occasionally before TrawsCymru when the Haverfordwest service was the 412 I'm not sure) but really it has been the 412 in all but name south of Cardigan since launch. North of Cardigan it's now pretty much the 550 in all but name since Blaenannerch and Blaenporth were robbed of nearly their entire bus service.

 

[Markdvdman]

Do passengers have to change bus on the T4? Pre-COVID at least (I've not been out much since), the T5 was split to such an extent that you often had to change bus in Cardigan (there may have been the odd one that worked through, which did happen occasionally before TrawsCymru when the Haverfordwest service was the 412 I'm not sure) but really it has been the 412 in all but name south of Cardigan since launch. North of Cardigan it's now pretty much the 550 in all but name since Blaenannerch and Blaenporth were robbed of nearly their entire bus service.

I have used the T4 to go from Merthyr to Llandridnod albeit pre covid and stayed on the same bus. I am not sure about now but they do change drivers in Brecon I have noticed just before covid that was.

 

[Runningaround]

The Bus times website has the T4 split into three or four sections: Newtown - Llandod- Builth - Brecon- Merthyr - Cardiff
I believe for all T5's you change at Cardigan. Put it into google though and via Carmarthen on the T1 will cover Aber to Haverfordwest quicker.
Many others will require a change on route on at least one service the T2 has an hour gap in Dolgellau, the T12 has shortened sections in the evening
Whether all mean changing bus or staying on I'm not sure but at least they(should) wait for each other.

 

[johntrawscymru]

The T12 effectively replaced the old D71 and 522 (S22) so at least there was an existing passenger base there with established travel patterns.

Would that be the T12 that's busy and a significant service between Machynlleth and Newtown, is busy between Newtown and Welshpool, and from Oswestry south and north?

Lesson is if you make a service worthwhile and leave less hanging around it becomes an alternative to the car, in an area where it's drummed into you that learning to drive is essential.

The T12 has the advantage that it took over multiple existing tenders. The only new bits were really Oswestry to Wrexham and no one knows what that bit is there.

The T12 is still busy despite the claim made earlier in the thread that it's not. It also covers a similar route you can do by train, if it visited and timed itself with a train service it would be far more useful for those not served by a train.

I would be intrigued to see what, if any, research was undertaken to justify the run over to Corwen. In terms of "Proof of the pudding", it would not be in the aggregated figures for the T10 if much of that is simply abstracting custom from the existing Arriva services to Bethesda. You would need to see the detail on the specific, unique journeys by stop.

As pointed out above the slow, ponderous T12 has been cobbled together from services that already existed as Local Services and already had a fan base. It does cover a similar route you can do by train starting off in Machynleth, visiting Newtown and Welshpool and ending up in Wrexham.

However it is in no way a long distance service and cannot possibly compete with the train. Trawscymru is a supposedly network of long distance bus services linking the major cities and towns of Wales. However with the T12 (and the T11) the function of a linked network of long distance services has been abandoned in favour of cobbling together existing Local Services to form a Trawscymru route. This “simplistic” approach means passenger numbers rise on the Trawscymru Network but new passengers are not attracted to bus transport and abandon their cars. The passengers are simply transferred from the Local Bus Service total to the Trawscymru Service total.

It would indeed be interesting to see the research that went into the T10, the T11 and the T12. There is no published information.

As for whether any of these Trawscymru services are now “busy” as has been suggested for the T12 on this thread then I would say that our own personal observations cannot be used to judge whether any of these services are successful. The only way for success to be measured is by the publication of Trawscymru Annual passenger figures. In the case of the T11 and the T12 the “proof of the pudding” would be in comparing the Trawscymru service figures with the Local Bus Services they replaced.

My own observations regarding the T12 were based on 2 complete journeys between Machynleth and Wrexham pre-covid after launch of the service where the number of passengers never rose above 5. This is coupled by regular car travel between Aberystwyth and Wrexham where the T12 is regularly seen empty.

 

[iantherev]

Whatever impression the timetables give, all T4 journeys north of Merthyr run through without the need to get off the bus. The only time I've ever had to change vehicles was an operational swap of a Scania/Enviro for a Traws-Cambria Volvo in Merthyr.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As pointed out above the slow, ponderous T12 has been cobbled together from services that already existed as Local Services and already had a fan base. It does cover a similar route you can do by train starting off in Machynleth, visiting Newtown and Welshpool and ending up in Wrexham.

However it is in no way a long distance service and cannot possibly compete with the train. Trawscymru is a supposedly network of long distance bus services linking the major cities and towns of Wales. However with the T12 (and the T11) the function of a linked network of long distance services has been abandoned in favour of cobbling together existing Local Services to form a Trawscymru route.

Both the T11 and T12 are shown on the TrawsCymru route map as 'TrawsCymru Connect' services (although other pages on the website do describe them without the word 'connect'). As such, I have no problem with them being existing local bus services. To me at least, that is exactly what the 'TrawsCymru Connect' brand is - a collection of normal local bus services that connect with TrawsCymru routes and/or are directly funded by the Welsh Government rather than through Local Authorities.

There has been alot of cobbling together of existing local services to form TrawsCymru services, the T5 being a case in point, but you cannot make that accusation against the T11 and T12 if they are indeed advertised as 'TrawsCymru Connect' and not just 'TrawsCymru'. It is the latter brand that should be a network of long distance bus services.

It would indeed be interesting to see the research that went into the T10, the T11 and the T12. There is no published information.

I don't know much about the other two services, but for the T11 I would suggest that no research was necessary. The 411 and 413 services existed anyway and were an important part of the bus network and ultimately does it matter whether they are provided by Pembrokeshire County Council or directly through the Welsh Government? I don't know, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was a case of service cuts beng threatened and the Welsh Government stepping in with the money to keep it running, but wanting to put their own brand on it so highlight their involvement. So no research needed, although keeping one of the existing service numbers (as they have for the 460, which is also TrawsCymru Connect) would probably have made more sense than making up a new one.

Whatever impression the timetables give, all T4 journeys north of Merthyr run through without the need to get off the bus. The only time I've ever had to change vehicles was an operational swap of a Scania/Enviro for a Traws-Cambria Volvo in Merthyr.

A Traws-Cambria Volvo? Don't you mean TrawsCymru or are you refering to the old 700/701/702 coach services? The TrawsCambria-branded Stagecoach buses introduced around 2005/2006 for the 704 were Optare Tempos.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As pointed out above the slow, ponderous T12 has been cobbled together from services that already existed as Local Services and already had a fan base. It does cover a similar route you can do by train starting off in Machynleth, visiting Newtown and Welshpool and ending up in Wrexham.

However it is in no way a long distance service and cannot possibly compete with the train. Trawscymru is a supposedly network of long distance bus services linking the major cities and towns of Wales. However with the T12 (and the T11) the function of a linked network of long distance services has been abandoned in favour of cobbling together existing Local Services to form a Trawscymru route. This “simplistic” approach means passenger numbers rise on the Trawscymru Network but new passengers are not attracted to bus transport and abandon their cars. The passengers are simply transferred from the Local Bus Service total to the Trawscymru Service total.

I'm not certain what the issue is? It's the conversion and linking of existing services, doesn't compete with rail, and opens up a number of through links that wouldn't be possible to form a long distance service. Unless you know what the previous passenger figures were for the previous service, we cannot say what the effect, positive or negative, of the T12 is (though I'd be surprised if fewer passengers travelled on it after they became the T12)

A Traws-Cambria Volvo? Don't you mean TrawsCymru or are you refering to the old 700/701/702 coach services? The TrawsCambria-branded Stagecoach buses introduced around 2005/2006 for the 704 were Optare Tempos.

10 x MCV bodied B8RLEs is what he's referring to, I suspect, hence the reference to the T4

 

[Runningaround]

As pointed out above the slow, ponderous T12 has been cobbled together from services that already existed as Local Services and already had a fan base. It does cover a similar route you can do by train starting off in Machynleth, visiting Newtown and Welshpool and ending up in Wrexham.

However it is in no way a long distance service and cannot possibly compete with the train. Trawscymru is a supposedly network of long distance bus services linking the major cities and towns of Wales. However with the T12 (and the T11) the function of a linked network of long distance services has been abandoned in favour of cobbling together existing Local Services to form a Trawscymru route. This “simplistic” approach means passenger numbers rise on the Trawscymru Network but new passengers are not attracted to bus transport and abandon their cars. The passengers are simply transferred from the Local Bus Service total to the Trawscymru Service total.

It would indeed be interesting to see the research that went into the T10, the T11 and the T12. There is no published information.

As for whether any of these Trawscymru services are now “busy” as has been suggested for the T12 on this thread then I would say that our own personal observations cannot be used to judge whether any of these services are successful. The only way for success to be measured is by the publication of Trawscymru Annual passenger figures. In the case of the T11 and the T12 the “proof of the pudding” would be in comparing the Trawscymru service figures with the Local Bus Services they replaced.

My own observations regarding the T12 were based on 2 complete journeys between Machynleth and Wrexham pre-covid after launch of the service where the number of passengers never rose above 5. This is coupled by regular car travel between Aberystwyth and Wrexham where the T12 is regularly seen empty.

So two trips over two years ago has brought you to your answer? The T12 is busy enough for a rural service and it would be busier if it ran hourly and later, so to support train passengers who live where there aren't any stations.

Which services have they replaced? Mach to Newtown part is just a name change of the same service it replaced, it wasn't previously subsidised but ran too the same timetable it does today. I'd say a service of 50 miles + is a long route by bus.

I'd also dispute the claim the numbers are the same as the local services as instead of changing x amount of times you travel straight there without leaving the bus once. It is, for those able to choose between train and bus, a viable and more reliable option than the train. And many use the T12 from Welshpool to travel to Gobowen train station as it's preferable to using the train.

Fare paying passengers aren't going to use it end to end as the T2 & T3 are quicker and later and far cheaper and in this case have three options to get to Wrexham.

Whatever impression the timetables give, all T4 journeys north of Merthyr run through without the need to get off the bus. The only time I've ever had to change vehicles was an operational swap of a Scania/Enviro for a Traws-Cambria Volvo in Merthyr.

When timetables show a gap like T5 it generally means a change of Bus, the T4 shows five different timetables which looks as if you either change or wait?

 

[burns20]

As a driver of the T12 it is busier than when it used to be the X85, interesting travel patterns of Caersws to Oswestry and Wrexham have become regular

Chirk to Wrexham has become busier than ever post Lockdown with +10 passengers per journey picked up in Chirk alone now commonplace, 1Bws Ticket has helped

Changes to the T12 from 4th September 2022

The 0655 departure from Machynlleth Railway Station will depart at 0657 and run at the same times and route as daytime journeys

Route Change in Montgomery, due to poor parking outside Bunners Hardware Store, services 81, 558 and T12 will no longer serve Broad Street and Arthur Street. Buses will operate via Bishops Castle Street and Maldwyn Way Car Park

Buses will serve Coed y Dinas Shopping Centre Car Park

Route change in Welshpool to serve the Railway Station/Tesco bus stop (Wrexham bound only) and the new Bus Station (both directions)