Tyne and Wear Metro unable to run under closed Gateshead flyover

[duffield]

If they real need, to keep the operation of the metro, a large number of workers should be dispatched and steel frames will be quickly built to temporarily support the bridge deck for temporarily relieve the most dangerous situation.

Well, they were talking about "temporary measures" by 10th January (if I remember earlier posts correctly) so maybe some sort of temporary supporting structure or massive props or similar is the plan?

 

[Paul_10]

I wonder when it will be announced there will be no more metro service to the south of the Tyne, the service looks infrequent so I'm imagining not all units are being used that are trapped down there which I guess will reduce the mileage they will be doing.

With no service on Xmas day in anycase, I'm guessing they will be trying to make them last till boxing day at least perhaps.

It does feel like though we do overreact in certain situations, surely the chances of the flyover collapsing with trains going at extremely slow speed is virtually nil. Totally understand not risking a full day service but there is a big difference between that and allowing the remaining sets to get through in groups of 4 units(?) back to Gosforth depot.

 

[158756]

Thanks for clearing it up a bit better. It's a mess, way too many layers currently, if you ask me but that's another thread.


Pillar 9 is the bad one btw, you'll see the numbers on each pillar if you go on the Southbound Carriageway.

The round building is a ventilation shaft aswell so the Metro runs directly under it pretty much.

Someone on another forum mentioned that the ventilation shaft being so close might be part of the problem aswell.

If pillar 9 is the problem, it looks like it's directly below a joint in the bridge and obviously has problems with water ingress. Have the council never done anything about it?

 

[Gostav]

I wonder when it will be announced there will be no more metro service to the south of the Tyne, the service looks infrequent so I'm imagining not all units are being used that are trapped down there which I guess will reduce the mileage they will be doing.

With no service on Xmas day in anycase, I'm guessing they will be trying to make them last till boxing day at least perhaps.

It does feel like though we do overreact in certain situations, surely the chances of the flyover collapsing with trains going at extremely slow speed is virtually nil. Totally understand not risking a full day service but there is a big difference between that and allowing the remaining sets to get through in groups of 4 units(?) back to Gosforth depot.

If the subway trains continued to run, the vibrations caused would most likely be seen as aggravating the damage to the structure, and it is understandable that the subway company would not want to take the risk.

 

[danielnez1]

If pillar 9 is the problem, it looks like it's directly below a joint in the bridge and obviously has problems with water ingress. Have the council never done anything about it?

Looking at the previous Google street views of pillar 9 even back in 2012 it was visibly deteriorating, with later pictures showing it surrounded by pools of water etc.

 

[ExRes]

Apologies for my ignorance of the area but, if there were any new 555s to be delivered would that actually be possible?

 

[Andymo]

Not to get them to the depot no. There is no remaining heavy rail to Metro link north of the Tyne.

 

[edwin_m]

It does feel like though we do overreact in certain situations, surely the chances of the flyover collapsing with trains going at extremely slow speed is virtually nil. T

From what I read here, the risk seems to be that the flyover collapses for reasons unrelated to Metro vibrations and damages the Metro beneath, probably by rubble falling down the ventilation shaft.

 

[Meole]

Unlikely, Northern don't have that many spare crews and units (if any at all now Ashington has opened) to do it with as far as I'm aware. I think we could see the semi-fast Newcastle - Middlesbrough services have a Heworth call added in on a temporary basis but they only run every other hour and not through the whole day. But that's about all I think Northern would be able to offer to help out.

Already been cancellation on Northumberland line due to staffing issues.

 

[DanNCL]

Oh it’s all very complicated

Excessively so.

I might be being silly, but it seems that if you cut down a section of the overhead line at the Maintenance/Training facility at South Shields, you might be able to work a lorry in close enough to crane it onto the track - and then use the battery shunters to get it under the wire.

The roads around the South Shields facility are too tight for a low loader large enough for a Metrocar.

Apologies for my ignorance of the area but, if there were any new 555s to be delivered would that actually be possible?

No, you’d have to store them somewhere like Tyne Yard until the tunnel reopened.

 

[choo.choo]

No, you’d have to store them somewhere like Tyne Yard until the tunnel reopened.

If they were to pile up 555s somewhere like Tyne Yard, how quickly do you reckon they could move them into the depot once the problem is resolved? Is the main delivery bottleneck at the Newcastle end or the Europe end?

 

[Killingworth]

Not to get them to the depot no. There is no remaining heavy rail to Metro link north of the Tyne.

That may need reconsidering for the future. Looking at modern maps it's not quite as easy as it may at first seem but quite feasible.

In speculative talk running mainline trains to Newcastle Airport has been suggested. That would come via reinstatement of the north-west and/or south-west Benton chords. Such a project is a best forgotten pipe dream.

However that south-west chord would be quite useful for bringing rolling stock in and out, whether new deliveries, old removals, or at times like this. Running from Benton to South Gosforth would then be the challenge for whatever mainline traction was being employed.

 

[Andymo]

I was thinking more along the lines of a crossover from the Northumberland line at Northumberland Park. I rue the day a chord wasn’t kept extant from the Metro avoiding line at Manors southwards in to Manors East

 

[swt_passenger]

I rue the day a chord wasn’t kept extant from the Metro avoiding line at Manors southwards in to Manors East

But when would it ever have been useful during the last 40 years or so? If there was ever any sort of long term anticipated need for an emergency connection to the main network, surely Benton SW would have been the one to preserve, as it was already usable in the early years, and more importantly gauge cleared for locos and on the direct route to the depot?

 

[Gostav]

Have the council never done anything about it?

If the town council was in charge of the bridge then without adequate funding they couldn't do much things, in fact you can see from the Google Street View that they have tried to patch up some of the holes over the past decade or so but no further work has ever been started due to lake of funding.

 

[Pelaw Junction]

Well doesn't that just mean that the first thing on the lorry is one of the battery locos!

If this lasts a while, won't they run out of trapped units and lose half the system?

This is exactly what they expect to happen over the next few days/week. The units trapped south of the river Tyne will all fail in time and they’ll eventually throw the towel in when they can’t even run a token service.

Its already running at 24 minute frequency as opposed to 12, so cant be lasting much longer.

 

[Snex]

If the town council was in charge of the bridge then without adequate funding they couldn't do much things, in fact you can see from the Google Street View that they have tried to patch up some of the holes over the past decade or so but no further work has ever been started due to lake of funding.

In fairness though they done absolutely nothing to prevent it either. The fact a 70T tank could've literally drove over it the same day, is frankly quite scary really.

We no doubt would've not been in this state if they closed the upper flyover like they did during COVID which they backtracked on.

I'm not aware of any examples where there's been a road that was perfectly fine one day, to condemned 10 minutes later. Usually there's stages between ie. weight restrictions etc.

 

[DanNCL]

In speculative talk running mainline trains to Newcastle Airport has been suggested. That would come via reinstatement of the north-west and/or south-west Benton chords. Such a project is a best forgotten pipe dream.

However that south-west chord would be quite useful for bringing rolling stock in and out, whether new deliveries, old removals, or at times like this. Running from Benton to South Gosforth would then be the challenge for whatever mainline traction was being employed.

This is where the battery range of the 555s would have been useful if a) the full fleet renewal had been completed and b) the south west chord at Benton were still in situ.

Eight trains are required to run a full service Heworth southwards. 555s can move empty in formations of up to four units. So you’d have been able to get them all back to Gosforth each night, under their own power via the King Edward Bridge, with just two empty stock movements each way using a Metro driver and a route conductor.

I was thinking more along the lines of a crossover from the Northumberland line at Northumberland Park. I rue the day a chord wasn’t kept extant from the Metro avoiding line at Manors southwards in to Manors East

That would be the easiest to implement now, could probably be done in a weekend if the points were already available.

The link at Manors had to be lifted to make room for the tunnel portal on the Manors stock line.

But when would it ever have been useful during the last 40 years or so? If there was ever any sort of long term anticipated need for an emergency connection to the main network, surely Benton SW would have been the one to preserve, as it was already usable in the early years, and more importantly gauge cleared for locos and on the direct route to the depot?

I agree that Benton SW would have been the link to keep. It should have been kept and there have been several times where it would have been useful. It would have made 555 deliveries easier and it would also have allowed the Metrocars to go to/from Doncaster for refurbishment by rail with one loco throughout avoiding the need to do the complex and disruptive lorry manoeuvres required for Hylton Street Yard in North Shields (Howdon depot didn’t exist then).

It would also have provided a wheel lathe accessible to National Rail stock in the North East, removing the need for Heaton allocated DMUs to go to Neville Hill every time they require the lathe. BR continued to use South Gosforth for the lathe for several years after Metro opened, it was only when the Benton SW link was lifted that it stopped.

The land is still clear for the Benton SW link, though a connection to the Blyth & Tyne somewhere between Palmersville and Northumberland Park would be quicker and cheaper to implement now.

 

[choo.choo]

Eight trains are required to run a full service Heworth southwards. 555s can move empty in formations of up to four units. So you’d have been able to get them all back to Gosforth each night, under their own power via the King Edward Bridge, with just two empty stock movements each way using a Metro driver and a route conductor.

Are the 555s equipped with AWS/TPWS at all, would this be required to run under their own power on the mainline where Indusi is not provided?

 

[DanNCL]

Are the 555s equipped with AWS/TPWS at all, would this be required to run under their own power on the mainline where Indusi is not provided?

Ah that’s a good point. They were supposed to be fitted but the cab photos I’ve seen don’t appear to show any AWS/TPWS equipment. If they’re not fitted then they’d presumably need to move in a possession which might be easier said than done, even at 3am.

Moot anyway as the Benton SW link has been lifted and only one of the units south of the river is a 555!

 

[philthetube]

How would they get the rope through to do hook onto the train, without somebody going with it? Having a train uncrewed and unbraked isn't going to happen either.

Aren't there drones that can steer themselves through tunnels?

Even if trains could be moved unmanned through the tunnels, would Nexus want to risk the flyover collapsing into the tunnel on top of a Metrocar and thereby destroying it? If there’s a high risk of a structure collapsing you want as little as possible underneath it to make clearing it up quicker and easier.

Are some going for scrap anyway?

 

[DanNCL]

Are some going for scrap anyway?

Not from the operational fleet yet, only long term stopped units that have no prospect of running again.

 

[ExRes]

No, you’d have to store them somewhere like Tyne Yard until the tunnel reopened.

Thanks @DanNCL

Not to get them to the depot no. There is no remaining heavy rail to Metro link north of the Tyne.

Thanks @Andymo

 

[Mike395]

If this is going to last any length of time, Nexus really need to be putting up better signage at Monument to indicate where the RRB stops. As a visitor to the city, 'opposite Lloyds bank on xyz Street' being the extent of the info, with not even a map/indication of which exit I need at ticket hall level (where mobile signal, at least for me, was limited) is poor.

 

[hacman]

Are the 555s equipped with AWS/TPWS at all, would this be required to run under their own power on the mainline where Indusi is not provided?

Ah that’s a good point. They were supposed to be fitted but the cab photos I’ve seen don’t appear to show any AWS/TPWS equipment. If they’re not fitted then they’d presumably need to move in a possession which might be easier said than done, even at 3am.

Moot anyway as the Benton SW link has been lifted and only one of the units south of the river is a 555!

The 555s are not fitted with AWS/TPWS. Seems a bit of a mistake as it would have eventually allowed simplification of the signalling south of Pelaw, plus the ability to extend onto other routes in the region without substantial infrastructure work.

That said, there is passive ETCS provision which given our area is due for deployment in CP9/10 could be of benefit...

 

[beepbooper]

If this is going to last any length of time, Nexus really need to be putting up better signage at Monument to indicate where the RRB stops. As a visitor to the city, 'opposite Lloyds bank on xyz Street' being the extent of the info, with not even a map/indication of which exit I need at ticket hall level (where mobile signal, at least for me, was limited) is poor.

Honestly, I've even seen locals turning up at the wrong bus stop. A map of some kind or some directional signage seem quite doable to me.

 

[rg177]

It isn't helped by the presence of the Christmas Market at the moment. In normal circumstances it'd just be straight out the exit towards the Theatre Royal and its the first stop over the road on your left. At the moment it's a lot more busy and chaotic, and difficult to make out the normal reference points. You'd also normally have a greater proliferation of staff on the ground too but the time of year won't be helping things.

 

[Ze Random One]

The other consideration that seems still to be addressed is how there's going to be any sensible public transport offer for South Tyneside or east Gateshead on Boxing Day or later into the evening Christmas and New Year's eve.

Metro normally operates until midnight on 24 and 31 December, providing the main or only form of public transport for the city region after 7pm those days.

On 26 December, the bus service provision has been heavily pared back in S. Tyneside / Gateshead, with hourly buses at best on a smattering of routes which don't really interconnect with each other.
I cannot see how anyone will be able to move in the area with 1 bus an hour on the 51/52 loop, one bus an hour on the 4, one bus an hour on half of the 26, and none of the other buses running west of Jarrow and east of the Old Durham Rd. Newcastle United play at home at 3pm, so unless an army of replacement buses and drivers can be found, it's going to be unworkable.

(edited to clarify area of limited bus supply)

 

[kez19]

nexus timetable - metro/bus replacement timetables

I see on the timetables Nexus mention no trains between Heworth/Monument (obvious to the tunnel), I didn't realise that the Metro was still operating from that side, I had the impression it was pulled off service and bus replacements in place, I know this maybe a repeated question but on the South Shields/Sunderland side where are the Metros stored/placed, unless its in a random spot out of public view?

 

[HfdNcl]

nexus timetable - metro/bus replacement timetables

I see on the timetables Nexus mention no trains between Heworth/Monument (obvious to the tunnel), I didn't realise that the Metro was still operating from that side, I had the impression it was pulled off service and bus replacements in place, I know this maybe a repeated question but on the South Shields/Sunderland side where are the Metros stored/placed, unless its in a random spot out of public view?

There are currently six diagrams south of the Tyne (141-146):
141 is stabled at Heworth Platform 1
142 at Nexus Learning Centre road 1
143 at South Shields
144 at Heworth Platform 2
145 at Nexus Learning centre road 2
146 at Pelaw siding 3

Dead Metrocars are in the other Pelaw sidings.