Tyne and Wear Metro unable to run under closed Gateshead flyover

[mad_rich]

MEtro on Twitter are warning that the departure screens on platforms aren't showing correct information, and the Pop app is unable to show real time info.

Does anyone know why this is? Is it a deliberate decision not to provide real time info? Or a limitation of the design? Or just one of those things.

It's not only now, it's often the case when there's disruption. It seems utterly daft that at the times when real time info would be most helpful, it's rarely available!

 

[kez19]

There are currently six diagrams south of the Tyne (141-146):
141 is stabled at Heworth Platform 1
142 at Nexus Learning Centre road 1
143 at South Shields
144 at Heworth Platform 2
145 at Nexus Learning centre road 2
146 at Pelaw siding 3

Dead Metrocars are in the other Pelaw sidings.

Thanks for that, I did wonder if any on that side did get back to depot.

 

[Paul_10]

MEtro on Twitter are warning that the departure screens on platforms aren't showing correct information, and the Pop app is unable to show real time info.

Does anyone know why this is? Is it a deliberate decision not to provide real time info? Or a limitation of the design? Or just one of those things.

It's not only now, it's often the case when there's disruption. It seems utterly daft that at the times when real time info would be most helpful, it's rarely available!

I think it may be due to different TRB are running so perhaps not registered into the system?

Are the TRB boards to the north of the tyne are normal or are they different ones also?

 

[mad_rich]

I think it may be due to different TRB are running so perhaps not registered into the system?

Are the TRB boards to the north of the tyne are normal or are they different ones also?

The departure boards seemed about right when I took the Metro from South Gosforth - Haymarket this morning.

 

[DanNCL]

There are currently six diagrams south of the Tyne (141-146):
141 is stabled at Heworth Platform 1
142 at Nexus Learning Centre road 1
143 at South Shields
144 at Heworth Platform 2
145 at Nexus Learning centre road 2
146 at Pelaw siding 3

Dead Metrocars are in the other Pelaw sidings.

Do you know which Metrocars are stranded south of the Tyne?

MEtro on Twitter are warning that the departure screens on platforms aren't showing correct information, and the Pop app is unable to show real time info.

Does anyone know why this is? Is it a deliberate decision not to provide real time info? Or a limitation of the design? Or just one of those things.

It's not only now, it's often the case when there's disruption. It seems utterly daft that at the times when real time info would be most helpful, it's rarely available!

I think it may be due to different TRB are running so perhaps not registered into the system?

Are the TRB boards to the north of the tyne are normal or are they different ones also?

What’s happening is the system is detecting trains on the opposite side of the closure and incorrectly displaying them at stations, whilst missing trains on the correct side before they’ve turned back at Monument/Heworth.

It’s poor, it is avoidable but Nexus are quite happy not providing adequate info as they know they’ve got virtually no scrutiny from anyone other than the public.

 

[rg177]

MEtro on Twitter are warning that the departure screens on platforms aren't showing correct information, and the Pop app is unable to show real time info.

Does anyone know why this is? Is it a deliberate decision not to provide real time info? Or a limitation of the design? Or just one of those things.

It's not only now, it's often the case when there's disruption. It seems utterly daft that at the times when real time info would be most helpful, it's rarely available!

It's definitely not intentional and something that is being looked into. Services on the south side of the block are displaying fine but there's an investigation ongoing into why the north side of the system isn't able to track correctly and how to rectify it.

It definitely isn't a case of being 'happy' not to provide adequate info but the system is provided by a third party.

 

[mad_rich]

What’s happening is the system is detecting trains on the opposite side of the closure and incorrectly displaying them at stations, whilst missing trains on the correct side before they’ve turned back at Monument/Heworth.

It’s poor, it is avoidable but Nexus are quite happy not providing adequate info as they know they’ve got virtually no scrutiny from anyone other than the public.

As, that makes sense. Daft, but logical!

Even in normal operations, I think trains don’t show until they’re live. Eg: towards Byker from Monument, the displays are meaningless until the train has left St James.

 

[Ze Random One]

nexus timetable - metro/bus replacement timetables

Thanks for this, pity you've been better at publicising this than Nexus...

 

[kez19]

Thanks for this, pity you've been better at publicising this than Nexus...

Yet I’m not even local here lol, I’m unsure when it was published, I was generally just looking up info (if any into January as I’ll be visiting again but I doubt it’ll be the Metro - be bus or train!), or if I do Metro it’ll be a mini loop!

 

[mad_rich]

What’s happening is the system is detecting trains on the opposite side of the closure and incorrectly displaying them at stations, whilst missing trains on the correct side before they’ve turned back at Monument/Heworth.

This makes sense now.

My train from South Gosforth to town this morning was showing correctly on the boards.

My train northbound from Monument wasn’t - departures were being announced by platform staff instead.

This evening, platform boards are just showing as ‘Additional Service. Destination on Front’ and '15 minute service' this evening.

Glad to know it's being worked on @rg177

 

[GDKEnts]

Tyne and Wear will be crippled in Boxing Day without it ☹️

 

[jkkne]

Tyne and Wear will be crippled in Boxing Day without it ☹️

Not really. There’s a bus replacement. Aside Newcastle at home, demand is low, most shops are uncharacteristically closed for a change.

Bus transport on Boxing Day in the region is historically limited anyway with Go North East and Stagecoach taking commercial risks and a great service on major corridors but not so on risky routes and limited arriva routes covered by tenders.

 

[YorkC]

Does anyone know if there's any way at present to get halfway useful live information on live times other than using something like the live maps available (for the southern section of the Green line only, I think) on Traksy?

 

[7522]

Msg

Do you know which Metrocars are stranded south of the Tyne?

In service today 24/12 - All sets alternating between South Shields to Heworth (yellow line) and South Hylton to Heworth (green line)

4029 and 4080
4017 and 4073
4005 and 4011
4006 and 4039
4014 and 4026
4023 and 4081

In Pelaw Sidings

4004 and 4018
4049 and 4075
4003 and 4074
4027 and 4086
4068 and???? - couldn't see what this was with due to it being in the middle.

 

[rg177]

4004 and 4018 are low on Kilometres before their next servicing so are unlikely to be used unless absolutely required.

 

[Paul_10]

That is alot more metrocars trapped than I thought there would be, certainly not ideal at all.

Do get a sneaky suspicion, this suspension is going to last longer than the current thinking.

 

[mad_rich]

I know somebody mentioned upthread mentioned the possibility of operating a single line shuttle between Monument - Gateshead & possibly Heworth - G’head Stadium.

If this is going to last weeks, then that would be a great way to minimise disruption to passengers. But then I imagine if it was feasible, it would’ve happened by now?

 

[Snex]

Bus transport on Boxing Day in the region is historically limited anyway with Go North East and Stagecoach taking commercial risks and a great service on major corridors but not so on risky routes and limited arriva routes covered by tenders.

Slightly off topic but I don't believe any of the GoNorthEast work is commercial hence everything terminating at the Durham County border.

They just operate their own work while Arriva just have a day off hence their work being tendered instead.

Unsure with Stagecoach.

 

[DanNCL]

It's definitely not intentional and something that is being looked into. Services on the south side of the block are displaying fine but there's an investigation ongoing into why the north side of the system isn't able to track correctly and how to rectify it.

It definitely isn't a case of being 'happy' not to provide adequate info but the system is provided by a third party.

The frontline staff and those on the social media team and in control I’m sure are doing their best. But questionable if the top level management are bothered, especially the customer services director who has been in post for a very long time, you’d think if he actually wanted to sort it out he’d have done so by now.

As, that makes sense. Daft, but logical!

Even in normal operations, I think trains don’t show until they’re live. Eg: towards Byker from Monument, the displays are meaningless until the train has left St James.

The system was upgraded a few years back to solve that problem for trains turning back at the four main termini, plus Pelaw and Monkseaton for the now axed peak shorts. It’s when trains turn back at non-standard locations such as Monument P1 that it gets confused.

Msg

In service today 24/12 - All sets alternating between South Shields to Heworth (yellow line) and South Hylton to Heworth (green line)

4029 and 4080
4017 and 4073
4005 and 4011
4006 and 4039
4014 and 4026
4023 and 4081

In Pelaw Sidings

4004 and 4018
4049 and 4075
4003 and 4074
4027 and 4086
4068 and???? - couldn't see what this was with due to it being in the middle.

Excellent, thanks.

I know somebody mentioned upthread mentioned the possibility of operating a single line shuttle between Monument - Gateshead & possibly Heworth - G’head Stadium.

If this is going to last weeks, then that would be a great way to minimise disruption to passengers. But then I imagine if it was feasible, it would’ve happened by now?

That was me who suggested it. It would take probably around a week to implement and that’s assuming no days off which we know won’t happen. You’d need to fit temporary mirrors at the south end of P2 at Monument and Central unless the shuttle were to become the 555 diagram, probably would need union approval too.

I remember such a shuttle operating between Kingston Park and Callerton Parkway many years ago when the Airport flooded, that would have been just as difficult to implement, and arguably for less benefit, albeit the issues encountered would have been different to those for any potential Monument - Gateshead single line shuttle.

 

[HfdNcl]

Msg

In service today 24/12 - All sets alternating between South Shields to Heworth (yellow line) and South Hylton to Heworth (green line)

4029 and 4080
4017 and 4073
4005 and 4011
4006 and 4039
4014 and 4026
4023 and 4081

In Pelaw Sidings

4004 and 4018
4049 and 4075
4003 and 4074
4027 and 4086
4068 and???? - couldn't see what this was with due to it being in the middle.

Additionally, 555004 and 555005 are stuck at NLC.

 

[Paul_10]

The frontline staff and those on the social media team and in control I’m sure are doing their best. But questionable if the top level management are bothered, especially the customer services director who has been in post for a very long time, you’d think if he actually wanted to sort it out he’d have done so by now.


The system was upgraded a few years back to solve that problem for trains turning back at the four main termini, plus Pelaw and Monkseaton for the now axed peak shorts. It’s when trains turn back at non-standard locations such as Monument P1 that it gets confused.


Excellent, thanks.


That was me who suggested it. It would take probably around a week to implement and that’s assuming no days off which we know won’t happen. You’d need to fit temporary mirrors at the south end of P2 at Monument and Central unless the shuttle were to become the 555 diagram, probably would need union approval too.

I remember such a shuttle operating between Kingston Park and Callerton Parkway many years ago when the Airport flooded, that would have been just as difficult to implement, and arguably for less benefit, albeit the issues encountered would have been different to those for any potential Monument - Gateshead single line shuttle.

How can you do a shuttle service between Gateshead and Monument when it will conflict with trains terminating at Monument to head back northwards unless the shuttle service can use platform 2. I also highly doubt most drivers have ever done such movements so I could never see it happening even if it's possible in theory.

Also why is the 555 not running just because it's Christmas week? As the ITV reporter asked, was bringing it out last week just a token gesture to meet a deadline and even though the MD denied it, well it proves this could well be the case.

 

[rg177]

Also why is the 555 not running just because it's Christmas week? As the ITV reporter asked, was bringing it out last week just a token gesture to meet a deadline and even though the MD denied it, well it proves this could well be the case.

As per my post in the relevant thread, it was never planned to operate this week due to a mixture of staff and engineering resource with it being Christmas.

As for running a shuttle service - the infrastructure isn't set up to allow for this at the moment and I can't imagine it being seen as a feasible option as things stand. One train in operation would mean a 20-minute service at best in this section, too.

As we get past Christmas, hopefully there'll be a clearer picture of how long this is expected to go on for.

 

[DanNCL]

How can you do a shuttle service between Gateshead and Monument when it will conflict with trains terminating at Monument to head back northwards unless the shuttle service can use platform 2. I also highly doubt most drivers have ever done such movements so I could never see it happening even if it's possible in theory.

Platform 2 was exactly my suggestion, one train on one track.
Such a shuttle was ran between Kingston Park and Callerton Parkway on the P1 line many years ago and that required infrastructure changes to implement, that’s what prompted the idea from me.

 

[Jonny]

As to why the tunnels are so susceptible, is it their square shape? The Wikipedia article on Gateshead Interchange (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateshead_Interchange) claims that "the running tunnels are square". Is there some underlying design issue there?

(section of article)

The design of the station is very different from the underground stations in central Newcastle, due to the different rock structure south of the River Tyne. The running tunnels are square, rather than circular in cross-section, with the station excavated as a box.

 

[choo.choo]

As to why the tunnels are so susceptible, is it their square shape? The Wikipedia article on Gateshead Interchange (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateshead_Interchange) claims that "the running tunnels are square". Is there some underlying design issue there?

(section of article)

This drawing is based on a vent map released by Nexus under FOI some years ago so should be the most accurate map of the tunnels under Gateshead. Flyover shown in red.

View attachment 171327

Not sure about the tunnels themselves, but there is a vent shaft very close to the flyover. A collapse would at the very least likely send rubble into tunnels.

 

[Ze Random One]

The other consideration that seems still to be addressed is how there's going to be any sensible public transport offer for South Tyneside or east Gateshead on Boxing Day or later into the evening Christmas and New Year's eve.

Metro normally operates until midnight on 24 and 31 December, providing the main or only form of public transport for the city region after 7pm those days.

On 26 December, the bus service provision has been heavily pared back in S. Tyneside / Gateshead, with hourly buses at best on a smattering of routes which don't really interconnect with each other.
I cannot see how anyone will be able to move in the area with 1 bus an hour on the 51/52 loop, one bus an hour on the 4, one bus an hour on half of the 26, and none of the other buses running west of Jarrow and east of the Old Durham Rd. Newcastle United play at home at 3pm, so unless an army of replacement buses and drivers can be found, it's going to be unworkable.

(edited to clarify area of limited bus supply)

I have to say I was reasonably impressed with the replacement bus operation tonight. I was expecting the replacement service to fall apart as drivers did not want to come out this late on Christmas eve, but as far as I can tell there were 3 or 4 buses out on the road until gone midnight. Part of this appears to be down to securing the services of the North East's rising star of a small bus company, Northstar, who seemed to take this as an opportunity to cement their already good reputation. Well done, Nexus, Northstar and everyone out working tonight!

Seeing the operation tonight gives me more hope that Boxing Day might not be a bloodbath for public transport on Tyneside

 

[DanNCL]

As to why the tunnels are so susceptible, is it their square shape? The Wikipedia article on Gateshead Interchange (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateshead_Interchange) claims that "the running tunnels are square". Is there some underlying design issue there?

(section of article)

Wikipedia is wrong, whilst they’re not a perfect circle, they’re not square either. They’re more akin to a traditional single bore tunnel, flat sided with an arched top.

The issues are that the tunnels are very shallow at that location so there isn’t much earth to protect them from the impact of a collapse above, plus the presence of a ventilation shaft right next to the worst condition part of the flyover.

 

[danielnez1]

Wikipedia is wrong, whilst they’re not a perfect circle, they’re not square either. They’re more akin to a traditional single bore tunnel, flat sided with an arched top.

The issues are that the tunnels are very shallow at that location so there isn’t much earth to protect them from the impact of a collapse above, plus the presence of a ventilation shaft right next to the worst condition part of the flyover.

The design of the tunnels in the Gateshead section was also heavily influenced by the more extensive historical mine workings in the area, which required centuries old mine shafts to be backfilled (I can't find the journal article about it at the moment, but AFIK some of the backfilling was done with polyethylene bags of rubble). That type of tunnel construction may have also had an impact on the decision to close it as well.

Edit: Here is a link to one of the articles I was thinking of.

 

[Paul_10]

As per my post in the relevant thread, it was never planned to operate this week due to a mixture of staff and engineering resource with it being Christmas.

As for running a shuttle service - the infrastructure isn't set up to allow for this at the moment and I can't imagine it being seen as a feasible option as things stand. One train in operation would mean a 20-minute service at best in this section, too.

As we get past Christmas, hopefully there'll be a clearer picture of how long this is expected to go on for.

So basically it was left till the last possible week in December it could go out, let's just get it out there so we meet the target that has been publically mentioned(and continuously mocked on that Facebook group) and get some good publicity and then back into the sidings it goes for the rest of the year. Let's be honest, if the quotes hopefully we will have a new train in service before the year is out was never mentioned, I have my doubts it would of seen public service this year and it would of been saved until January.

From the sounds of it regarding the flyover, sounds like there is going to be a costly sticking plaster being put on it to allow trains to run again and we all know even if the trains do run again, there will almost certainly be a speed limit, question will be, how slow will it end up being? Either way, there need to be a procedure in place to have the speed limit in place between Gateshead Stadium and Gateshead and normal working after it especially if its going to be a very slow speed limit.

 

[danielnez1]

From the sounds of it regarding the flyover, sounds like there is going to be a costly sticking plaster being put on it to allow trains to run again and we all know even if the trains do run again, there will almost certainly be a speed limit, question will be, how slow will it end up being? Either way, there need to be a procedure in place to have the speed limit in place between Gateshead Stadium and Gateshead and normal working after it especially if its going to be a very slow speed limit.

IMHO the immediate priory should be to temporary stabilise/prop up Pillar 9 et.c to ensure the service can resume ASAP. As the flyover was surplus to requirements from the outset (as the CME bypass and the associated Tyne crossing was never built), the next priority should be to demolish it, with the longer term priority being to re-configure/optimise the ground level road/junctions and improve the surrounding landscape (which has been pretty grim for decades). After that, Gannon should be sent the bill.