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UK rail lines that are the most profitable / have the best business case ratio to be electrified

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Trainbike46

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Is a basket case!


Why? Plenty of freight is moved by diesel locos on already electrified lines.
Isn't a big reason for that, that usually there is at least a section of the route without electrification currently?

Electrifying such sections would allow more freight to go electric, over longer distances:

- Acton wells / Acton bank (the connection between the Great Western Mainline and the West Coast Mainline)
- Felixstowe branch
- London Gateway branch
 
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zwk500

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Isn't a big reason for that, that usually there is at least a section of the route without electrification currently?

Electrifying such sections would allow more freight to go electric, over longer distances:

- Acton wells / Acton bank (the connection between the Great Western Mainline and the West Coast Mainline)
- Felixstowe branch
- London Gateway branch
Part of the problem with wiring for freight has always been the last mile issue with overhead loading.
 

Trainbike46

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Part of the problem with wiring for freight has always been the last mile issue with overhead loading.
absolutely, there are solutions for that problem though, such as:
-moveable OHLE
-a shunting locomotive for the final distance in the yard
-electric locomotives with a small battery back-up or diesel generator (like the class 88)
-bimode and trimode locomotives (like the class 93 and 99)

I don't think an 88 on diesel is strong enough to do the whole felixstowe branch, but it would be strong enough for the bit in the port where the overhead needs to be clear to allow overhead loading.
Acton Bank will get done in the short term, but not as a freight deliverable.
If not freight, what is the logic for doing Acton Bank?

And presumably, even if freight isn't the reason for installing it, freight moves will be able to use it, right?
 

The Planner

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absolutely, there are solutions for that problem though, such as:
-moveable OHLE
-a shunting locomotive for the final distance in the yard
-electric locomotives with a small battery back-up or diesel generator (like the class 88)
-bimode and trimode locomotives (like the class 93 and 99)

I don't think an 88 on diesel is strong enough to do the whole felixstowe branch, but it would be strong enough for the bit in the port where the overhead needs to be clear to allow overhead loading.

If not freight, what is the logic for doing Acton Bank?
To deliver Old Oak Common is what I have heard.
 

zwk500

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absolutely, there are solutions for that problem though, such as:
-moveable OHLE
-a shunting locomotive for the final distance in the yard
-electric locomotives with a small battery back-up or diesel generator (like the class 88)
-bimode and trimode locomotives (like the class 93 and 99)

I don't think an 88 on diesel is strong enough to do the whole felixstowe branch, but it would be strong enough for the bit in the port where the overhead needs to be clear to allow overhead loading.
Indeed - but developing all these things takes money, and it wasn't available purely for last-mile when a general diesel was needed anyway. Now that it's economic to develop locos like the Class 88, 93 and 99, I expect the numbers for freight spur electrification look a little better. Moveable OLE was trialled at Wellingborough, not sure what happened with that.
And presumably, even if freight isn't the reason for installing it, freight moves will be able to use it, right?
They should be able to yes (not involved so can't say 100% but don't know why they wouldn't be able to unless the neutral section had to be put somewhere really awkward).
 

Bald Rick

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Wider Economic Impacts, aren't an invention, but a legitimate part of a business case. If you didn't include societal benefits, including wider economic impacts, no roads would ever be built (as their BCR would be below zero by definition, as there is no ticket income for roads).

Not quite.

There’s three elements to a transport business case (in this country, at least, and we have the best methodology, apparently)

1) straight cash effects to the government account
2) socio economic costs / benefits directly resulting from the investment. Eg value of time saved, accidents avoided, pollution avoided, etc. (road schemes do very well here)
3) Wider economic benefits, being indirect effects of the project. This is the change to economic activity, such as changes of land use (eg Canary wharf), or changes in property value.

1 & 2 are always in the business Case.

3 is much more difficult to quantify, and applies more to larger projects.
 

rapmastaj

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Not quite.

There’s three elements to a transport business case (in this country, at least, and we have the best methodology, apparently)

1) straight cash effects to the government account
2) socio economic costs / benefits directly resulting from the investment. Eg value of time saved, accidents avoided, pollution avoided, etc. (road schemes do very well here)
3) Wider economic benefits, being indirect effects of the project. This is the change to economic activity, such as changes of land use (eg Canary wharf), or changes in property value.

1 & 2 are always in the business Case.

3 is much more difficult to quantify, and applies more to larger projects.
Part of the reason why road schemes do very well is that assessors are directed not to reject them based on carbon emissions grounds. If those were properly taken into account it would be very different.

The time saving benefits associated with every projected trip on the new road are tallied in a standard manner. But the emissions of each trip are not. In the standard methodology, the road can only be rejected if it, alone, has a 'significant' impact on total UK carbon emissions. And of course any single road will not meet that threshold.

The health disbenefits of physical inactivity associated with greater car travel are not accounted for either.
 

zwk500

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The health disbenefits of physical inactivity associated with greater car travel are not accounted for either.
Because the causal relationship between new roads and less exercise is nil? The health effects of physical inactivity associated with greater car travel are intensely personal. As an example - the primary reason I drove a car in Milton Keynes was to attend Rugby Practice. I cycled or got the train to work and walked to the shops.
 

rapmastaj

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Because the causal relationship between new roads and less exercise is nil? The health effects of physical inactivity associated with greater car travel are intensely personal. As an example - the primary reason I drove a car in Milton Keynes was to attend Rugby Practice. I cycled or got the train to work and walked to the shops.
If its an entirely new trip, perhaps it doesn't impact activity levels. But very often, people will have a choice of mode for a particular trip. Whether they chose to walk or drive or cycle can depend on many factors, including the relative ease and time taken for each mode, which is effected by congestion levels. These factors are taken into account in the business cases for new walking and cycling infrastructure, while the exact same factors are ignored in the business cases for new roads.
 

Western Sunset

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Surely the business case has already been made (and met) for electrifying:
Didcot - Oxford
Chippenham - Bristol Temple Meads - Patchway/Bristol Parkway
Cardiff - Swansea

Additionally, both Bath and Bristol have Clean Air Zones in operation, so further supporting the case to finish the GWML electrification as originally conceived.
 

Greybeard33

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A further question, west of Castlefield, towards Trafford Park there appears to be a much simplified OHL structure, which is little more than a trolley wire. What are the speed and power limits of this slimmed down approach, and is it cheaper to deliver (as in enough to make it worth a compromise in other ways) This approach could be applied to the Windermere Branch for example.
It is cheaper to deliver but it's very speed limited (it's also used from Wolverhampton to Oxley Depot). I don't know the exact limits, but it's fair to say it would slow down Windermere when the branch needs speeding up if anything.
I noticed in a French cab ride video that the single track branch line from Saumur to Thouars (western France) has been electrified using a form of trolley wire OLE. The contact wire is supported from the cantilever arm by short "coat hanger" wires and steadied by a short registration arm. It looks very simple and lightweight compared with conventional catenary.

I think these wires are intended primarily for freight, but I do not know the speed limit (the video was taken from a DMU).
 

RobShipway

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I think there are problems mixing DC and AC on the same lines, and I cant see the whole SWML 3rd rail being converted. What is wrong with a 'son of Class 92' which will run on 750v 3rd rail and 25kV OH. The case for converting lines from 3rd rail to 25kv must be much weaker than electrification of diesel routes. The new loco class should probably have a battery as well for last mile capability, or just stick with the class 88 approach and fit a small diesel engine for use in yards, sidings and short runs away from electric. I know everyone seems to think diesel is dead, but to me it still has a place for this type of operation, and if the main freight route is electrified then the emmisions contribution from using diesel to complete the journey at either end must be miniscule.

A further question, west of Castlefield, towards Trafford Park there appears to be a much simplified OHL structure, which is little more than a trolley wire. What are the speed and power limits of this slimmed down approach, and is it cheaper to deliver (as in enough to make it worth a compromise in other ways) This approach could be applied to the Windermere Branch for example.

To me until MML, Transpennine and West country routes are finished we shouldn't be starting any new projects, and realistically even with political will this is well over 10 years away. Investing money in removing diesel from something like the Far North Line at 8 trains per day each way when you still have 6 trains per hour on diesel over the Transpennine route makes no sense.
Is a basket case!


Why? Plenty of freight is moved by diesel locos on already electrified lines.
From details that I read many years ago, the route from Southampton docks through Reading is the most used freight route in the country, whether it is for goods being exported or imported.

The trains like the roads and planes has to start reducing carbon emissions, otherwise there will not be a planet for the future young of this country. There is plenty of projects going on with having battery electric cars, buses and even lorries. There is also plenty of projects doing the same for planes, whereby you may see many planes in the next twenty years using other more carbon friendly fuels or being powered by battery power too. But other than the class 168 Hybrid unit, the class 230 trains with TFW and the class 799 unit there is very little, that the railways seem to be doing to be replacing diesel.

Now, where diesels are being used on electrified lines whether it is 3rd rail or OHLE, the locomotives pulling the freight trains should be able to use the electrical power in those areas and only should be using diesel power where there is no electrical power. In the future though that diesel power should be battery power.

Now for me the world of freight within the South east seems to have gone backwards. Yes, the freight trains have got larger and heavier, but I remember in the 1970's and 1980's that many of the freight trains within the South East where hauled by class 73 locomotives. Yet, nowadays many of the freight companies just seem to be having the trains pulled from end to end using class 66, 67, 68 or 70 locomotives. This even includes Network Rail, when it comes to having freight trains when doing engineering works, even though they have class 73's in their fleet.

I would be delighted if there was a son of class 92, which could not only run with 750v erd rail, 25kv OHLE, but also where not electrical power could haul a freight train that a class 66 or 70 would haul using battery power for either last mile or where no electrical power is available. But other than the class 88 and 93 locomotives from Stadler, there seems to be no real answer from any of the train manufacturers that have bases within the UK.

People will say but what about passenger trains, well for passenger trains you have HS2 that is currently being built which will help to free up capacity on the WCML. You also have to ask yourself where is the most freight being moved to/from in the UK. The answer to that is mostly from the ports such as Southampton and Felixstowe. I would also add in Immingham, Milford Haven, Liverpool, Tees and The Port of London. Have a look at how many freight trains there is on both a daily basis and weekly basis from these ports and also look at how much revenue these services are bringing to the UK. You will find that it far out weighs the revenue from passenger train services, yet passenger trains are having routes such as HS2 built?

Okay, HS2 being built does free up capacity on the WCML which could be used by freight and with the likes of the class 93 locomotive, could be speeded up a little with the right freight carriages being built to help convey the freight. But more needs to be done than just the building of a locomotive that is just as powerful supposedly away from from electrification as it is with being used under OHLE.
 

zwk500

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Yes, the freight trains have got larger and heavier, but I remember in the 1970's and 1980's that many of the freight trains within the South East where hauled by class 73 locomotives. Yet, nowadays many of the freight companies just seem to be having the trains pulled from end to end using class 66, 67, 68 or 70 locomotives. This even includes Network Rail, when it comes to having freight trains when doing engineering works, even though they have class 73's in their fleet.
73's don't have the power to haul heavy freight on their own. A container train can be 1600t, an Aggregates train can be 2400t. 73s have quite strict restrictions up banks and so on.
I would be delighted if there was a son of class 92, which could not only run with 750v erd rail, 25kv OHLE, but also where not electrical power could haul a freight train that a class 66 or 70 would haul using battery power for either last mile or where no electrical power is available. But other than the class 88 and 93 locomotives from Stadler, there seems to be no real answer from any of the train manufacturers that have bases within the UK.
A battery-25KV loco is the future.
People will say but what about passenger trains, well for passenger trains you have HS2 that is currently being built which will help to free up capacity on the WCML. You also have to ask yourself where is the most freight being moved to/from in the UK. The answer to that is mostly from the ports such as Southampton and Felixstowe. I would also add in Immingham, Milford Haven, Liverpool, Tees and The Port of London. Have a look at how many freight trains there is on both a daily basis and weekly basis from these ports and also look at how much revenue these services are bringing to the UK. You will find that it far out weighs the revenue from passenger train services, yet passenger trains are having routes such as HS2 built?
You will find that passenger contributes far more revenue to the railway than freight.
Okay, HS2 being built does free up capacity on the WCML which could be used by freight and with the likes of the class 93 locomotive, could be speeded up a little with the right freight carriages being built to help convey the freight. But more needs to be done than just the building of a locomotive that is just as powerful supposedly away from from electrification as it is with being used under OHLE.
Class 99 and 93s are being built right now.
 
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