Units with a front passenger view?

[seagull]

Does anyone think we will ever see new multiple units built with a front (and rear) observation view for passengers like the old heritage DMUs had?

Was there a specific reason why all of a sudden (in about the 1980s), driver's eye front view seemed to become 'taboo' in new units?

I have noticed that overseas, some new diesel and electric units built have now re-introduced a forward facing view for the passengers, with a glass/PVC partition between the driver's cab and the saloon. Why not here?

One complaint from drivers overseas regarding the transparent partition is not that they can't read the paper while driving any more but that the light from the saloon lights at night-time can be a distraction. How did that work here with the old heritage DMUs?

Does the UK's love of 'elf and safety prevent it ever happening here again - i.e due to 'emotional distress' inflicted on passengers if they see someone/thing being squished?

I'd be interested to see other people's thoughts on the subject!

 

[rail-britain]

There is no chance now
However if the train has video screens at all seats, then a forward facing camera could give a forward view

Was there a specific reason why all of a sudden (in about the 1980s), driver's eye front view seemed to become 'taboo' in new units?

There were concerns from some drivers they were being watched by the public, and the blinds had to be pulled down during the hours of darkness
Furthermore they became unreliable and an unnecessary distraction
Ironically, such views could confirm what a driver did or did not do

 

[ralphchadkirk]

All the reasons are very well documented on here. This subject must pop up every couple of months.

 

[lm321412]

You can get a pretty good forward view on the Class 139, just what you exactly see is pretty limited...

But I think that is the only UK Example of trains (if you call it that) with a forward view that have been built recently.

 

[seagull]

All the reasons are very well documented on here. This subject must pop up every couple of months.

Ok, that may well be the case - but members have undoubtedly joined (like myself) since it was last discussed and therefore might have new views and ideas to contribute - the purpose of a discussion forum, I submit.

Anyway I shall trawl through the archives and see what I can unearth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can get a pretty good forward view on the Class 139, just what you exactly see is pretty limited...

Never thought of that one - thanks. The Dockland Light Rail is the only other one I can think of where you still get a view forward, unless it's changed since I went on it.

 

[notadriver]

Or just become a train driver

 

[Yew]

Or just become a train driver

I would love to be a train driver, for maybe a few hours a week, However all the required training+route refreshers etc, the maths doesnt add up for a toc to employ me for a few hours Maybe i will be able to find somthing at a heritage railway one day/

 

[Crossover]

I'm not sure screens in the back of seats would necessarily be a great idea (aside from the cost) as for those travelling backwards that could be a rather weird experience (its bad enough pulling into stations looking out the non platform window wondering whether you are moving, the train next to you is moving the opposite way or both!)

On my visit to Germany last year I was quite surprised at the number of services with a cab view (round Stuttgart) - most of the new S-Bahn stock and quite a bit of the U-Bahn stock too - needless to say I quite enjoyed the chance to see out the front whilst I had the chance. The best for this were the ICE3 trains (got a bit of a surprise on seeing how much could be seen!) - I believe that on these the windows can be frosted to become opaque - thankfully on the services I was on, they weren't, and for the outbound journey at least, when I was near the front, I spent a fair bit of time in the quiet zone behind the cab. One thing I did notice about this (more on the return when it was dark) is that this quiet zone seemed dimmer than the rest of the train.

Aside from the 139 and DLR, the closest I've come to a cab view in the UK is when guards have gone into the back cab and the door hasn't yet shut, or, occasionally, the guard has been called to the drivers cab and I've seen out the front briefly too

 

[Anon Mouse]

you can get a good view from the front seat of the Tyne & Wear Metro

 

[Crossover]

Oh, actually, I forgot to mention that NET and Croydon Tramlink give a forward facing view too

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'd expect (and hope) that the frosting on the ICE would automatically be activated on an emergency brake application, to prevent passengers seeing suicides in the flesh?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ok, that may well be the case - but members have undoubtedly joined (like myself) since it was last discussed and therefore might have new views and ideas to contribute - the purpose of a discussion forum, I submit.

Anyway I shall trawl through the archives and see what I can unearth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Never thought of that one - thanks. The Dockland Light Rail is the only other one I can think of where you still get a view forward, unless it's changed since I went on it.

Is this a typical "London is best" comment? What about the Manchester Metrolink units that offer a front view. I am sure that other cities have similar units that offer such a view.

Incidentally, when the trials for what was then the vehicle analysis for the Manchester Metrolink were ran in the Hyde Road area of East Manchester on the redundant rail line, there were Docklands Light Railway units used for these trials. I've still got the commemmorative tickets and booklet that was issued for these trials.

 

[seagull]

Is this a typical "London is best" comment?

:-? Er, no. That certainly wasn't the intention - all I was saying is that DLR is the only other I could think of (and have been on).

Incidentally, when the trials for what was then the vehicle analysis for the Manchester Metrolink were ran in the Hyde Road area of East Manchester on the redundant rail line, there were Docklands Light Railway units used for these trials.

Now I never knew that - must have been a good few years ago now. The trials must obviously have been successful.

On my visit to Germany last year I was quite surprised at the number of services with a cab view (round Stuttgart) - most of the new S-Bahn stock and quite a bit of the U-Bahn stock too. The best for this were the ICE3 trains

Exactly - that's one of the things that surprised me and therefore it obviously isn't a European 'law' that there shall be no front view. Haven't been on ICE3 yet, something to do one day.

 

[notadriver]

German train driver wages are very low in comparison with for example, France, Spain and Britain. Perhaps the many cab views available are due to the low status of the job in Germany ie that they are not entitled to privacy?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did those famous 4 or 5 car DMU sets that ran from Liverpool to Hull, many years ago, with what seemed very modern front ends at the time, have good front seat vision...or not?

I think the service was informally known as "The Trans-Pennine Express". How many years did this service run for?

 

[WatcherZero]

German train driver wages are very low in comparison with for example, France, Spain and Britain. Perhaps the many cab views available are due to the low status of the job in Germany ie that they are not entitled to privacy?

Maybe the passengers just want to see that their driving and not feet up reading a paper, asleep at the wheel so to speak

 

[jopsuk]

From what I've seen, in Japan they build units for certain services that have the cab mounted high or low to allow passengers at the front an unobstructed view. They also though apparently have views through the cab on most units, and the drivers can expect to be secretly watched by management. I've been told by a cousin that this then means that the (white gloved) drivers point at each trackside signal they see to show to anyone watching that they have seen it and acknowledge it. Quite odd.

 

[HugePilchard]

this then means that the (white gloved) drivers point at each trackside signal they see to show to anyone watching that they have seen it and acknowledge it.

According to Wikipedia (for whatever that's worth!), it's helps the driver's brain comprehend what they've just seen. There's a picture on the article of a bus driver doing it, too. And apparently it also happens in Japanese industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

 

[jon0844]

I'm impressed that London motorists have also adopted this system without any training whatsoever.. they've even enhanced it so it's more gesturing and shouting.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've heard suggestions in the past that new stock with much panoramic windows would be great on the scenic Heart Of Wales Line. That got me thinking, how about a new DMU similar to 2 Devon Belle observation cars stuck together? The controls would be under a locked desk at each end, like the Docklands Light Railway. Of course unlike the DLR there would not be any automatic train control on scenic railways, so the driver would always have to be occupying the seats at the front of the leading coach, however at the other end passengers would have a good veiw of the line behind. Would be awkward on the Heart Of Wales though, thanks to reversal at Llanelli.

I've since been on the Heart Of Wales line, and was a bit disapointed, didn't really see that much scenic landscape, though perhaps it was just due a major hedge-trim (the lineside vegitation was scraping against the windows in a few places I seem to remember). The Cambrian coast line on the other hand supprised me, I think I'd not heard it called a scenic line before I used it (but have since) but found the scenery stunning most of the way to Porthmadog. However my idea wouldn't work here either, because of the need to couple to the Aberystwyth portion, the lack of corridor connections between units in multiple being somthing I do not like the idea of at all. The train I suggested might still be useful somewhere though.

 

[Ivo]

The train I suggested might still be useful somewhere though.

Yes, indeedy: It's called Leeds to Carlisle, via Settle. No reversals or multiple operation (that I am aware of) involved!

I would say extend it to EMU operation as well, but er...

Where do EMUs go that would justify it?

 

[jopsuk]

these are some of the Japanese units

 

[notadriver]

these are some of the Japanese units

Apart from these Romance trains, do most Japanese multiple unit trains offer some sort of view through the cab?

 

[seagull]

Here's another couple of Japanese ones (not Romance cars), on the Enoshima Railway:

and on the Hakone Tozan line:

 

[Anon Mouse]

According to Wikipedia (for whatever that's worth!), it's helps the driver's brain comprehend what they've just seen. There's a picture on the article of a bus driver doing it, too. And apparently it also happens in Japanese industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

The same happens on the Chonqqing Monorail in China which also has front passenger views, however there are notices telling people not to filim or take photos behind the driver. Its a great system and pretty surreal, bit like Chonqqing in general.

Another train which has a front passenger views in China is the very weird Shanghai Tourist Tram which runs under The Bund at a very expensive fare. Its a driverless pod thing and during the 5 minuite journey the passenger is treated with some music, inflatable characters and a 1980's style light show. The oddest peice of rare track I have ever took - http://www.flickr.com/photos/wiseman2007/4320436374/in/photostream/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/wiseman2007/4320436074/in/photostream/

 

[danfitz123]

Here's another couple of Japanese ones (not Romance cars), on the Enoshima Railway:

This picture looks as though a terrible disaster is about to occur.

 

[Welshman]

The "Trans-Pennine" units were introduced in 1960 for the hourly Hull-Liverpool services which started-up in 1961.
They were originally 6-car sets, [later class 124], and afforded excellent views through the front and rear ends, and BR astutely designed those sections as first class, so charging folks 50% extra for the view!!

 

[ChrisCooper]

German train driver wages are very low in comparison with for example, France, Spain and Britain. Perhaps the many cab views available are due to the low status of the job in Germany ie that they are not entitled to privacy?

I doubt it. Anyway it has to be remembered that under BR train driver wages were much lower than they were now, yet it was really in the 80s when the move from giving passengers a view forward to giving them a blank wall started, when the second generation DMUs started appearing. The last trains built with a forward view were the late 70s 312s, although forward views on EMUs were rare (only the 303, 310, 311 and 312 had them AFAIK). The 303s when refurbished losts their forward views.

One thing I'm not sure on is when the move towards running with blinds down on trains that did provide a forward view started. I know for a long time after the introduction of the second generation units first generation units still 9 times out of 10 had their blinds up, then it became rarer and rarer until eventually 99 times out of 100 the blinds would be down, perhaps even without drivers having a say in it. Around the same time the nearest equivalents in Sprinters, the small windows in the cab door, were blanked over too

Interestingly the story on buses is pretty similar (also removing the myth that it's about pay and standing), although there has been a slide back recently. Halfcabs all had a glass window behind the driver with a blind that was only used at night to prevent glare. Early OPO single decks also had a perspex partition behind the driver and again the blind was only used at night. Arond a similar time to the railways though it became more and more common for the blind to be down all the time. Double deckers normally did not have a window behind the driver as that's where the stairs were, although dual staircase types with centre staircases usually did. Another similar issue was with seating, earlier OPO buses often had a sideways seat over the front nearside wheelarch, wheras during the 90s this typically became a luggage rack (which are rarely that heavily used). Again the nearside sideways seat was a great place for a forward view and watching the driver (NCT's later Atlanteans were best with 2 forward seats behind the single leaf front door). As I said earlier though, there has recently been a slip back, and more modern buses often do have a perspex partition behind the driver again, although like on the trams it's got those black dots over it. Forward facing seats on the nearside wheelarch are also far more common now. Part of it is the desire for more seats on lowfloor buses to make up for those lost with the wheelchair bays. The fact many buses have forward seats directly behind the driver also means that having a blank wall is not so desirable.

Of cource all trams have a forward view of some sort, although it varies from gear glass on some to frosted, colured or "dotted" on others.

 

[j0hn0]

The only ones I can think of are:
ICE3 - I rode in the front between Frankfurt and Koeln and hit 310kmh as we were late - honestly that was the most exhilarating train journey of my life, with all the gradients, tunnels and corners, 200mph roller-coaster!

Duesseldorf U-Bahn - It was a struggle in the morning but I generally sat behind the driver whenever I could. There are some quite interesting sub-surface structures leading out of Heinrich Heine Allee. I especially like the race against the other u-bahn between there and Hbf as there are 2 southbound tracks running on top of the northbound ones.

I like the idea of a forward facing camera, perhaps play it on one or 2 screens down the carriage (like buses) to show the forward view, way more interesting than looking out the side.

 

[notadriver]

The thing with buses or coaches though is that you are always able to have some sort of forward view and if so inclined you could keep an eye on the driver. You just might not be able to be seated to do it depending on the configuration of the vehicle. In the modern British train you cannot have that forward view or keep an eye on the driver even if you wanted to.

As for salaries, German train drivers recently went on strike due to low wages of around £1200 (or was it euros) a month. The British train driver gets double that.

As for blinds (if fitted) I'm not sure if I'd have them up or down given the choice.