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Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

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Bertie the bus

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And the eyes of most epidemiologists, virologists, scientists and subsequently most government leaders.
Scotland has more closely followed what the scientists have said than England has since the start of the pandemic and Scotland is currently in a far worse position than England. Higher infection rates, higher hospitalisations, higher death rate and fewer people previously infected meaning this situation could continue for quite some time. So saying scientists say something really doesn't mean much.
 

Philip

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Scotland has more closely followed what the scientists have said than England has since the start of the pandemic and Scotland is currently in a far worse position than England. Higher infection rates, higher hospitalisations, higher death rate and fewer people previously infected meaning this situation could continue for a reasonable amount of time. So saying scientists say something really doesn't mean much.

All of this is irrelevant to the point in question though, that virus mutation and chance of a new variant developing is increased by higher infection rates.

People can debate whether this increased risk is worth putting measures like vaccine passports in place to help counter it, but clearly the Scottish and Welsh governments think it is.
 

Bertie the bus

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It isn't irrelevant at all. The "science" has largely been nonsense so saying the "science" says something will happen in the future is not a reason to take any action. Your argument is also incredibly flawed. Mutations do not just happen in the UK. This is a global pandemic and, as we are only a small % of the global population, any vaccine evading mutation is far more likely to develop elsewhere than here so even if we completely eradicated the virus it would barely have any effect on the likelihood of a vaccine evading mutation happening somewhere in the world.
 

Cowley

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It isn't irrelevant at all. The "science" has largely been nonsense so saying the "science" says something will happen in the future is not a reason to take any action. Your argument is also incredibly flawed. Mutations do not just happen in the UK. This is a global pandemic and, as we are only a small % of the global population, any vaccine evading mutation is far more likely to develop elsewhere than here so even if we completely eradicated the virus it would barely have any effect on the likelihood of a vaccine evading mutation happening somewhere in the world.

I agree. I think this is what people fail to grasp sometimes when they’re not looking at the bigger picture on a global scale unfortunately.
 

Cdd89

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However, the point is that increased transmission increases the risk of a new variant developing, which may or may not be one which evades the vaccines; the risk is increased with higher levels of infection.
  1. In your estimation, is a vaccine-evading variant more likely to emerge in the U.K., or from anywhere else in the world?
  2. In the latter case, do you believe it would be possible to “keep” such a variant out of the United Kingdom?
 

NorthKent1989

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Scotland and Wales are just playing sensible and there are arguments both for and against England implementing the system. However, the point is that increased transmission increases the risk of a new variant developing, which may or may not be one which evades the vaccines; the risk is increased with higher levels of infection.

If a vaccine-resistant strain did develop and we went back to having lockdowns until the vaccine had been redeveloped to provide protection then people would be crying outrage that governments hadn't put measures in place (like vaccine proof) to help guard against something like this - they can't win.

Or maybe it’s just time to move on from Covid and accept it’s going to be here forever and really not worth wasting our lives over? I think that’s a great plan, the hysterical types have had their way for too long quite frankly.

There’s no need for restrictions and lockdowns at this point.

All of this is irrelevant to the point in question though, that virus mutation and chance of a new variant developing is increased by higher infection rates.

People can debate whether this increased risk is worth putting measures like vaccine passports in place to help counter it, but clearly the Scottish and Welsh governments think it is.

This is all what ifs, and life doesn’t work like that, every day is a risk and there’s more important things than Covid right now, passports do nothing to prevent transmission a bunch of jabbed people can be in a room passing Covid around like wildfire
 

DorkingMain

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All of this is irrelevant to the point in question though, that virus mutation and chance of a new variant developing is increased by higher infection rates.

People can debate whether this increased risk is worth putting measures like vaccine passports in place to help counter it, but clearly the Scottish and Welsh governments think it is.
No variant has been found to escape the protection of vaccines against severe disease, at least not to any meaningful degree.

Recent data suggests that vaccines are actually just as effective against preventing severe disease from Delta as they were from Alpha.
 

Yew

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Scotland and Wales are just playing sensible and there are arguments both for and against England implementing the system. However, the point is that increased transmission increases the risk of a new variant developing, which may or may not be one which evades the vaccines; the risk is increased with higher levels of infection.
Mathematically, that's untrue through simple probability theory.

Pragmatically, whilst still phenomenally unlikely, a much greater risk is wasting doses on scientifically dubious boosters, whilst people in the developing world are unvaccinated.
 

VauxhallandI

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And the eyes of most epidemiologists, virologists, scientists and subsequently most government leaders.
Total unadulterated rubbish I’m afraid.

Has it not raised any questions in your mind that for the first 6 months or so there was no mention of variants then for 8 months it was all we heard about and then since nothing.

When in reality they have existed all the way through in far greater numbers.

It sad to see the manipulation
 

Philip

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Mathematically, that's untrue through simple probability theory.

Pragmatically, whilst still phenomenally unlikely, a much greater risk is wasting doses on scientifically dubious boosters, whilst people in the developing world are unvaccinated.

The latter bit is exactly the point. However, there has been no mention of vaccine passports applying to booster jabs, only for the initial two doses which have been shown to offer the best protection, hence why the governments are so keen to persuade people to have them.
 
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Harold Hill

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For anyone interested in freedom there are events in most cities today as part of World Wide Demonstration Day
 

DustyBin

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Scotland and Wales are just playing sensible and there are arguments both for and against England implementing the system. However, the point is that increased transmission increases the risk of a new variant developing, which may or may not be one which evades the vaccines; the risk is increased with higher levels of infection.

If a vaccine-resistant strain did develop and we went back to having lockdowns until the vaccine had been redeveloped to provide protection then people would be crying outrage that governments hadn't put measures in place (like vaccine proof) to help guard against something like this - they can't win.

I think you’ll find Scotland and Wales are just playing different, as per usual.

Any new variant of concern is far more likely to be “imported” than originate here, in fact there are plenty on the watch list already.

You still appear to vastly overestimate our ability to control this virus. These NPIs you support amount to nothing more than tinkering around the edges and won’t make any difference to the outcome. Even full lockdowns have been proven to only (briefly) kick the can down the road. The virus will do what it “wants” to do, we need to accept the fact and move on.
 

NorthKent1989

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The latter bit is exactly the point. However, there has been no mention of vaccine passports applying to booster jabs, only for the initial two doses which have been shown to offer the best protection, hence why the governments are so keen to persuade people to have them.

There was also no mention of passports 18 months ago and now look where we are, I wouldn’t feel so confident that conditions to enjoy life wouldn’t include the boosters.
For anyone interested in freedom there are events in most cities today as part of World Wide Demonstration Day

There was a march in London on Thursday I think, good if there’s another one!
 

Harold Hill

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Yes there's another London event today along with Birmingham and Cardiff and many others cities. Check Telegram 'WWD'
 

DustyBin

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There was also no mention of passports 18 months ago and now look where we are, I wouldn’t feel so confident that conditions to enjoy life wouldn’t include the boosters.

I wouldn’t be surprised if boosters are offered to everyone, and if they are I expect you’ll need to be “triple jabbed” to get a vaccine passport.
 

Yew

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The latter bit is exactly the point. However, there has been no mention of vaccine passports applying to booster jabs, only for the initial two doses which have been shown to offer the best protection, hence why the governments are so keen to persuade people to have them.
Persuade is putting up posters, banning people from normal human activities if they've not had a vaccine is coercion, forcing everyone to prove they are worthy to go into places is stalinist.
 

NorthKent1989

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I wouldn’t be surprised if boosters are offered to everyone, and if they are I expect you’ll need to be “triple jabbed” to get a vaccine passport.

I think this is the outcome too, anyone who believes that two jabs will be enough to get them living the easy life in the top tier above the “unhealthy, unclean vermin that is the unvaccinated” is labouring under a great delusion.
 

scotrail158713

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I think this is the outcome too, anyone who believes that two jabs will be enough to get them living the easy life in the top tier above the “unhealthy, unclean vermin that is the unvaccinated” is labouring under a great delusion.
Indeed. You only need to take a look at countries like Israel to see that.
 

35B

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Persuade is putting up posters, banning people from normal human activities if they've not had a vaccine is coercion, forcing everyone to prove they are worthy to go into places is stalinist.
You might want to check your definitions somewhat - Stalinism involved a great deal more than you suggest, while coercion typically involves compelling people to do something, not preventing them from doing something.
 

greyman42

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If a vaccine-resistant strain did develop and we went back to having lockdowns until the vaccine had been redeveloped to provide protection then people would be crying outrage that governments hadn't put measures in place (like vaccine proof) to help guard against something like this - they can't win.
Which people would be crying outrage? Do you mean the hysterical brigade on Facebook? With attitudes like this some people will never get back to living normally.

Or maybe it’s just time to move on from Covid and accept it’s going to be here forever and really not worth wasting our lives over? I think that’s a great plan, the hysterical types have had their way for too long quite frankly.

There’s no need for restrictions and lockdowns at this point.
Completely agree with you.
 

kez19

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You might want to check your definitions somewhat - Stalinism involved a great deal more than you suggest, while coercion typically involves compelling people to do something, not preventing them from doing something.

So is that then the definition of someone not getting the vaccine to getting kicked out of a job? Where is the logic in that one?
people can be employed in a place for so many years but because they choose not too let’s kick them out? Can we do that with our MPs under the same thing or are they special? Can I ask my MP if they been jabbed if not call an election? (see where this is going if not by now?)
 
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DustyBin

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You might want to check your definitions somewhat - Stalinism involved a great deal more than you suggest, while coercion typically involves compelling people to do something, not preventing them from doing something.

People are being compelled to get vaccinated as otherwise they may not be able to live a normal life. Therefore the coercion claim at least is quite accurate in my opinion.
 

Philip

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Which people would be crying outrage? Do you mean the hysterical brigade on Facebook? With attitudes like this some people will never get back to living normally.

I suspect certain members of certain forums would be crying outrage...
 

Kite159

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Assuming Scotland & Wales introduces those vaccine passports, how long before they extend the scope where you need to show it, ie all pubs/restaurants & hotels?
 

DustyBin

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Assuming Scotland & Wales introduces those vaccine passports, how long before they extend the scope where you need to show it, ie all pubs/restaurants & hotels?

Other countries are doing it so I wouldn’t rule it out, in fact I seem to remember Sturgeon saying this wouldn’t happen in Scotland for now (read into that what you will).
 

NorthKent1989

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I was out on the town yesterday pubs and bars were thriving, queues to get in practically everywhere, zero social distancing, it was good old fashioned normality, I cannot see anyone; jabbed or unjabbed wanting to keep Covid going longer than necessary and give up normality again.

It’s been that way for months, we have literally been living with Covid for months and it hasn’t caused a massive spike like the doom mongers we’re hoping would happen.

I’ve come to the conclusion that Covid passports is a metaphorical can being kicked further and further down the road by the government as a part of me believes that they have no real intention of enforcing it and are kicking that can until the next big crisis shoves Covid into the graveyard of hysteria where Brexit now resides.

Society has been living with it just fine, and Bojo knows the idea is unpopular and unworkable, he has little support in Parliament to enforce them, they’re trying to get the young to get the jab and ironically it’s stalled the uptake.

I hope this is the outcome, but even if they do come into force I think people will ignore it after a few weeks, much like track and trace, testing and masks usage post July have all been largely ignored.
 

43066

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I was out on the town yesterday pubs and bars were thriving, queues to get in practically everywhere, zero social distancing, it was good old fashioned normality, I cannot see anyone; jabbed or unjabbed wanting to keep Covid going longer than necessary and give up normality again.

That matches my observations from last night. It is feeling a lot more “2019 normal” out there now, which is good to see. Certainly a great deal more so than during the snatched periods of freedom between lockdowns we had last year.

I suspect the government has realised vaccine passports are a political hot potato which will cause division and controversy out of all proportion to any possible benefit, so that’s some progress. It’s just a shame they didn’t realise the same thing about masks last year!
 

NorthKent1989

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That matches my observations from last night. It is feeling a lot more “2019 normal” out there now, which is good to see. Certainly a great deal more so than during the snatched periods of freedom between lockdowns we had last year.

I suspect the government has realised vaccine passports are a political hot potato which will cause division and controversy out of all proportion to any possible benefit, so that’s some progress. It’s just a shame they didn’t realise the same thing about masks last year!

Well we live and learn and now we know Covid isn’t the apocalypse we can definitely relax and go back to normal.

Last night on the tube I would say it was roughly 20-30% mask usage, which is great to see, we need more people to take back normality and not rely on the government to give us it back.

It also confirmed that another lockdown wouldn’t be tolerated, venues may shut but people will gather in other ways regardless, the feeling is very different from last year.

Covid passports are nothing more than a security blanket that has zero health benefits.

Though I see Blair has crawled out from under his rock again to voice his support for ID cards … I mean Covid Passports, if there’s one thing I’ve learnt that anything he voices his support to, most people go the opposite way, the man is a poison chalice who is beyond contempt.
 
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