Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[Bikeman78]

Let's hope the hospitality industry comes out against it!

Mitchells & Butlers has already said it doesn't like the idea. I saw various shop owners on news24 earlier saying that they'd happily let anyone in.

 

[Cdd89]

The fact this rhetoric is accompanied by the “after all offered” stipulation makes it seem like it's just trying to create sufficient pressure to bully those uneasy about vaccines so that most people will get the vaccine.

It won’t work on those firmly against vaccines (in fact it will harden such people against them), but the leaning anti-vaccine people who just don’t want the hassle might be swayed.

It accompanies the “if you’re over 50 get your vaccine before supplies go down” rhetoric from the gov, when it’s actually unlikely that there will be a period whereby those over 50 can’t get a first dose.

 

[MikeWM]

I don't agree with your assessment that domestic passports are inevitable for many activities. For a start for much of 2021 a large proportion of the population will not have proof of vaccination because, well they won't be fully vaccinated. It could be late into the year before all the adult population will have the opportunity for dual-dose vaccines. That means that any legal mandate will likely be challenged, and any venue requirements will see businesses / events will be severely limiting their customer bases / revenue, especially things like sports & festivals where a large proportion of their customers will be from the younger end of the spectrum.

The suggestion that was floating around earlier today is that venues will be required to maintain all the current social distancing requirements, with the 'carrot' of being able to 'return to normal' if they check vaccine papers instead. So we'd start with a rerun of late last Autumn with all the nonsense that entailed, and as the year progresses there will be incredible demand - financial and societal - on every venue to get rid of those measures by doing this other 'simple' thing.

Quite simple really. Evil often is remarkably simple.

Then there is the logistics.

That's not stopped them trying anything in the last 12 months!

I appreciate you disagree with me that the idea of the vaccine papers are the end goal (well, the 'end of the beginning' goal, the necessary hurdle to get over to introduce a full social credit system), and it is valid to do so, but I would say that if you view everything that has happened since about May or June last year through this lens, things make a *lot* more sense than they do otherwise. And they're not going to let logistics get in the way of their desired goal.

So with a few weeks to go before some pubs and restaurants start to partly reopen, time is running out. Because I honestly cannot see the public accepting being able to go to the pub in April unvaccinated, only to be told later in the year that they can no longer do so.

We had the test run for this last year - when the pubs reopened in July, they did so with almost no restrictions. Within three months we had mandatory masks, mandatory track and trace, social distancing requirements in law, rule of six, service only at a table...... As with all the tests of our compliance over the last 12 months, we mostly complied, probably more than our leaders ever dared thought possible.

---

Great. So people like me who absolutely refuse to take the vaccine need to accept that we are toxic, filthy scum who deserve to be excluded from society.

You won't be alone, if that is of any help. I know at least two people (three, if you include me) that won't be taking it, at least not any time soon.


---

No, you need to accept that your choices have consequences. Just as in some places, children whose parents refuse to allow them to be vaccinated, are refused admission to schools and youth activities.

Of course I'd argue this is wrong, from both directions (ie. that there shouldn't be such a requirement, but equally why should a child suffer just because they have stubborn parents?) But it also complicates the matter (eg. as you mention with the complex cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses), which at its essence is a very simple one.

When have there ever been 'consequences' on the societal level for a healthy adult to refuse medical treatment, however strongly advised? Notwithstanding that the medical treatment in question is experimental and still in clinical trials. Whether one is happy to take this particular vaccine or not, the idea that the state can force or coerce healthy people to undergo an (experimental!) medical treatment should, in my view, make us very uncomfortable indeed. Specific protocols on these matters were put in place in the 1940s by people who directly saw the horrors of what had happened at that awful time - we need to be extremely careful about casually throwing those protocols away.

 

[bramling]

Mitchells & Butlers has already said it doesn't like the idea. I saw various shop owners on news24 earlier saying that they'd happily let anyone in.

Shop owners are in a difficult position, as whatever they do is going to upset someone.

 

[Yew]

The suggestion that was floating around earlier today is that venues will be required to maintain all the current social distancing requirements, with the 'carrot' of being able to 'return to normal' if they check vaccine papers instead.

When did 'lack of stick' become a carrot?

 

[MikeWM]

When did 'lack of stick' become a carrot?

It's a stick either way, of course.

It feels to me like a bully came along a year ago and has been punching everyone in the face daily. Now we're getting to get an offer from them that they'll stop punching us in the face daily - as long as we agree to be kicked in the shins daily instead, forever. And it seems we're all going to go 'well, that's better than being punched in the face, let's go for that', rather than actually deal with the bully and not be attacked by them at all.

 

[HSTEd]

When did 'lack of stick' become a carrot?

''Not being driven out of business by state coercion" is a carrot, of a sort.

 

[Bantamzen]

Typical of the obnoxious, patronising response I expect from you. How dare you lecture me about "consequences" for not accepting a forced medical treatment. People like you are a danger to society as you enable this sort of fascist behaviour from the vile govermnent which is tightening its grip on this country ever more.

Well said! I'm sick and tired of the "holier than thou" types preaching their virtues and treating other people's rights with contempt. There is going to be a time soon when those words and actions might come back to haunt them.

The suggestion that was floating around earlier today is that venues will be required to maintain all the current social distancing requirements, with the 'carrot' of being able to 'return to normal' if they check vaccine papers instead. So we'd start with a rerun of late last Autumn with all the nonsense that entailed, and as the year progresses there will be incredible demand - financial and societal - on every venue to get rid of those measures by doing this other 'simple' thing.

Quite simple really. Evil often is remarkably simple.



That's not stopped them trying anything in the last 12 months!

The mood of the country is changing quickly, and the locktivists have fewer and fewer excuses to hide behind.

I appreciate you disagree with me that the idea of the vaccine papers are the end goal (well, the 'end of the beginning' goal, the necessary hurdle to get over to introduce a full social credit system), and it is valid to do so, but I would say that if you view everything that has happened since about May or June last year through this lens, things make a *lot* more sense than they do otherwise. And they're not going to let logistics get in the way of their desired goal.

The locktivists have had a field day these last 12 months, that is true. But just look at the reaction from both the industry & the public. There has been a resounding "No" from both. Even the BBC couldn't report on the idea without commenting on how there was a huge negative reaction. At the end of the day, this government plays the popular card, mainly because they are totally incapable of forming their own ideas. Expect in the coming weeks the government to come under more fire and these silly ideas swept under the carpet. Because if they don't, well look at Bristol. That was just the opening salvo....

We had the test run for this last year - when the pubs reopened in July, they did so with almost no restrictions. Within three months we had mandatory masks, mandatory track and trace, social distancing requirements in law, rule of six, service only at a table...... As with all the tests of our compliance over the last 12 months, we mostly complied, probably more than our leaders ever dared thought possible.

Yeah, and look at how these were upheld over time, not. Everywhere I went the rules got bent more & more as the weeks went on. The stay-at-home locktivists were probably beside themselves with excitement, but in reality rule by rule were being misshaped and eventually ignored. Don't kid yourself here, lockdown rules up and down the country are more and more being ignored, and the government know this.

 

[birchesgreen]

Any party which brings in or supports (and i include abstaining) this medical fascism will be dead to me, forever.

 

[DustyBin]

It's a stick either way, of course.

It feels to me like a bully came along a year ago and has been punching everyone in the face daily. Now we're getting to get an offer from them that they'll stop punching us in the face daily - as long as we agree to be kicked in the shins daily instead, forever. And it seems we're all going to go 'well, that's better than being punched in the face, let's go for that', rather than actually deal with the bully and not be attacked by them at all.

This is exactly how it feels. I myself used the analogy of a school bully demanding you hand over your dinner money or they’d give you a kicking. There’s only one way to deal with this situation and it doesn’t involve parting with your money or cowering on the floor! The lack of backbone being shown by some people makes me sick. (Oh, and yes I did attend a particularly rough comprehensive school!).

 

[duncanp]

This is exactly how it feels. I myself used the analogy of a school bully demanding you hand over your dinner money or they’d give you a kicking. There’s only one way to deal with this situation and it doesn’t involve parting with your money or cowering on the floor! The lack of backbone being shown by some people makes me sick. (Oh, and yes I did attend a particularly rough comprehensive school!).

The government wants to get the overall vaccination rate for all ages to about 80- 90% by the end of June, when social distancing is supposed to be abolished. If this is achieved, then it will not matter too much about unvaccinated people, as there will be effective herd immunity, and any "third wave" will be of a magnitude that can be managed without punitive lockdowns or other costly measures.

It seems obvious to me that the threat of "vaccine passports" becoming mandatory in order to go to the pub is being used to cajole/bully younger people into getting vaccinated when it is their turn. The government seems to think that the refusal rate amongst under 40s is going to be significantly higher than for over 40s.

I do not support compulsory vaccination, as it discriminates against people who have a genuine medical reason for not having the vaccine, such as pregnant women and those with certain disabilities.

However I would hope that most people, whatever their age, would realise that the vaccine is safe, effective and has an overall benefit to society and the economy, and that they shouldn't refuse to take it for spurious reasons.

 

[DustyBin]

The government wants to get the overall vaccination rate for all ages to about 80- 90% by the end of June, when social distancing is supposed to be abolished. If this is achieved, then it will not matter too much about unvaccinated people, as there will be effective herd immunity, and any "third wave" will be of a magnitude that can be managed without punitive lockdowns or other costly measures.

It seems obvious to me that the threat of "vaccine passports" becoming mandatory in order to go to the pub is being used to cajole/bully younger people into getting vaccinated when it is their turn. The government seems to think that the refusal rate amongst under 40s is going to be significantly higher than for over 40s.

I do not support compulsory vaccination, as it discriminates against people who have a genuine medical reason for not having the vaccine, such as pregnant women and those with certain disabilities.

However I would hope that most people, whatever their age, would realise that the vaccine is safe, effective and has an overall benefit to society and the economy, and that they shouldn't refuse to take it for spurious reasons.

Just to be clear, I’ve no issue with the vaccine(s), it’s the coercion I (strongly) disagree with. People should be free to choose and if they choose not to be vaccinated they shouldn’t face discrimination. We need to think about the implications of crossing this line.

If we were dealing with SARS I’d feel differently but then again with a case fatality rate of 15% people would be fighting their way to the front of the queue!

 

[Bantamzen]

Just to be clear, I’ve no issue with the vaccine(s), it’s the coercion I (strongly) disagree with. People should be free to choose and if they choose not to be vaccinated they shouldn’t face discrimination. We need to think about the implications of crossing this line.

If we were dealing with SARS I’d feel differently but then again with a case fatality rate of 15% people would be fighting their way to the front of the queue!

Indeed, if this was all dealt with with a bit more humility and at lot less guilting then I'm sure most people wouldn't think twice about it. But as with everything covid related, hysteria, blaming, and general lack of rational messaging leaves us where we are.

 

[35B]

Do you have an example of which vaccines you are referring to and where these places are?

The state mandated childhood vaccines, California. Introduced under a piece of legislation referred to as “SB 277” and subsequently toughened following evidence that loopholes were being used and undermining its effect.

Exemption is only for medical need, and doctors have lost their licenses for providing medical exemption paperwork without proper cause. Various other states have similar rules, sometimes including and sometimes not including grounds for exemption on conscience.

 

[kristiang85]

The alternative to a vaccination certification will be two tests taken three days apart it seems. https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1375170967526375424

And how often would this need to be repeated? Does it give you entry for a whole weekend to pubs?

One of the joys of pubs is that they will accept anyone and everyone, and that you can be walking past one and think "I've got a spare 30 mins, I'll drop in for a pint". No booking needed.

Last summer's restrictions were irksome enough, but better than no pubs. But I'll be truly upset if we've lost the spirit of the pub for ever.

 

[35B]

Of course I'd argue this is wrong, from both directions (ie. that there shouldn't be such a requirement, but equally why should a child suffer just because they have stubborn parents?) But it also complicates the matter (eg. as you mention with the complex cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses), which at its essence is a very simple one.

When have there ever been 'consequences' on the societal level for a healthy adult to refuse medical treatment, however strongly advised? Notwithstanding that the medical treatment in question is experimental and still in clinical trials. Whether one is happy to take this particular vaccine or not, the idea that the state can force or coerce healthy people to undergo an (experimental!) medical treatment should, in my view, make us very uncomfortable indeed. Specific protocols on these matters were put in place in the 1940s by people who directly saw the horrors of what had happened at that awful time - we need to be extremely careful about casually throwing those protocols away.

I’ve answered above about the state vaccination mandates; mandates that I personally support because I regard the social element of vaccination policy as of at least equal weight to the individual element.

As for social consequences of refusing treatment, I’d suggest two examples. The extreme example is that of “Typhoid Mary”, an asymptomatic carrier of typhoid who was incarcerated because she refused to stop her work as a cook, despite being linked to multiple deaths. More generally, and related to a condition of similar gravity and treatability, powers continue to exist to compel TB sufferers to take treatment and to isolate from the community. Those powers are little used and both justified and opposed for the way they focus on certain marginalised groups (particularly the homeless).

You also elide the questions of compulsory treatment and codes quite rightly put in place after WWII with the existence of social sanction for non compliance. Without getting into the detail of the Nuremberg Code (focused on medical experimentation after the atrocious experiments on concentration camp prisoners by the Nazis), I see a fundamental difference between the choice each of us has to receive a treatment, and the reaction we may provoke in those around us by our exercise of that choice.

If I were to refuse the vaccine today, I would do so in knowledge of a material possibility that in doing so I may find that some businesses won’t serve me. I retain the power of choice, but it is a consequence that I need to weigh in the balance when making that choice. I can’t say I wasn’t told.

That is a separate question from whether the domestic vaccine passport plan is a good idea, or proportionate, or practical (I consider it none of the above). But in the hysteria about vaccines and Covid (incidentally, a hysteria that infests both “locktivists” and their more vocal opponents), I suggest that the question these are being raised for is not control of us, or to drive vaccine uptake (as various posters here make clear, it’s more likely to repel than attract), but government considering how it manages risk as a partially vaccinated society re emerges from the current measures.

 

[DB]

I see a fundamental difference between the choice each of us has to receive a treatment, and the reaction we may provoke in those around us by our exercise of that choice.

You clearly don't, as you think that those who make the "wrong" choice should be excluded from basic aspects of society.

The best precedents you've managed to come up with are some in the US (and we really don't want to emulate them, in many ways), and some very old cases.

Even if we take your point of public health (which I don't), this would still be grossly disproportionate - once all those at particular risk have been vaccinated (if they wish to be), there is no more reason to vaccinate everyone else than there would be to vaccinate everyone for flu.

 

[Darandio]

It's very sad to see that there are people who are quite willing to approve of and accept fascism in our country. There were many problems we faced 18 months ago, this is one we didn't see coming.

 

[duncanp]

Just to be clear, I’ve no issue with the vaccine(s), it’s the coercion I (strongly) disagree with. People should be free to choose and if they choose not to be vaccinated they shouldn’t face discrimination. We need to think about the implications of crossing this line.

If we were dealing with SARS I’d feel differently but then again with a case fatality rate of 15% people would be fighting their way to the front of the queue!

I agree that people shouldn't be coerced.

I just hope that people would have a good reason for refusing the vaccine, apart from those with certain medical conditions, considering the overall benefit that it brings to society.

 

[kristiang85]

It's very sad to see that there are people who are quite willing to approve of and accept fascism in our country. There were many problems we faced 18 months ago, this is one we didn't see coming.

Yep, although I'd stop short of calling it facism. However, people seem to happily sign off a gross overreach of state power into their lives, and I'm just aghast that so many seem content to lose the ability to do things that make life colourful - making new friends in person, working in the presence of a good team of colleagues, discovering new food and drink outside your own larder, travelling at home and overseas, browsing clothes in a shop, participating in team sports, going to watch sports or go to a live music or theatre performance, etc. etc.

An existence based in your home with the internet being your only gateway to get anywhere near these kind of activities is incredibly dispiriting. Yet people just seem to let it happen for no good reason. A few months last spring was justifiable as we had no idea what we were dealing with, but when you weigh up what we are losing versus what we are trying to achieve now (in a world with much better scientific understanding of the virus and with vaccines), there is absolutely no way it can be vindicated. And yet the only way out to do these things seems to be coercion into doing something not everybody can do or would be comfortable with (even just getting tested is very invasive), which is just abhorrent.

 

[bengley]

I'm 27. Healthy. Not going to be taking the vaccine. I've heard of far too many cases of people being essentially bed ridden for 24-48 hours with awful sickness after taking it.

That, along with my phobia of needles is all I need to tell me that I'd rather give it a miss.

Anyone who tells me that I'm selfish or stupid or whatever for making that choice and anyone who suggests I should be able to be denied any domestic service as a result can quite frankly swivel.

 

[jumble]

So 54 million will get the vaccine offer as under 18 don’t get it. Those with allergies can’t take it and some others don’t take it maybe 20% maybe 5 million so what next?

*Vaccine passports? Would they allow a nasal spray as an alternative to travel? A negative COVID test? Or is it no jab no fly? Would it be every single country world wide?

*Would vaccine passports be forever like airport security or short term to see how the virus is?

*Lockdown has seen an increase of suicides and depression how would someone have any quality of life if they were banned from weddings pubs football and holidays. Effectively living in lockdown? Now would this be short term or forever?

*If the government don’t vaccinate everybody every year what then? What if it’s at risk groups only then someone unvaccinated is the same as someone who had the vaccine but the protection has expired?

*What exemptions would there be for vaccines to travel? Would it cover any mental health issues?

*Vaccine passports in development are digital what if you don’t have a smart phone? How do they know the passport is genuine if it’s paper?

*How would EU countries deal with 5 million barred Brits and possibly many more in Eu countries as I heard take up is low in France? Would it be the end of EU’s open borders? Are they going to stop cars crossing the border and have border checks?

*What do you do if you have 5 million who can’t take it for health reasons or other what do you do about the rapid increase of suicides with people who have nothing left and even banned from weddings? Two tier society?

or would better treatments possibly oral vaccines be the future or even single dose vaccines maybe better testing would this be the future and options will improve or are we stuck in a two jab every year society forever?


We need an open debate in society about this ..

It is pretty clear in my mind that Domestic Vaccine Passports and/or producing negative results may start off as a big idea that will quite quickly go no where even if anyone tries to introduce it
Boris will say that he tried but there were too many issues to make it practical

The passports have the same problem as masks that it is unacceptable to mandate that exempt people discuss their exemptions with security staff in private businesses and those businesses are not allowed by law to discriminate on such grounds

If we did go down the route of not allowing people in without certificates then the Pregnant, those with blood clotting issues and many others might well cause a big problem in terms of discrimination.

I ask again as I did upthread who is going to pay for these mandatory tests?
Is it in any way practical that we will say to our our Health Workers and our school staff who I have confirmed today do self report as below that they need to pay for someone else to test them as well if they are pregnant and want to go to the pub ?

International travel as Others have frequently stated is a different kettle of fish as it is no longer our Laws that are relevant

----------------------------------------
The Government has advised that all school staff should continue to test themselves over the Easter break.

Therefore, on Monday, I will be handing out another box of 7 tests to each of you. These tests are still to be taken twice weekly and will last until Sunday 25th April, 2021. It will be advisable to take a test on Sunday 18th April, before school starts on the 19th.

It is still vital to report the results of the test, whatever the result on https://www.gov.uk/report-covid19-result

or by calling 119. If you do show a positive result, you will need to self-isolate straight away, let XXXX know and arrange for a PCR test – please see details below.

 

[greyman42]

I'm 27. Healthy. Not going to be taking the vaccine. I've heard of far too many cases of people being essentially bed ridden for 24-48 hours with awful sickness after taking it.

These cases if they do exist are few and and far between.
People willingly go to pubs on a night out and drink to excess knowing fine well that they are going to be spending the next day feeling terrible.

 

[nlogax]

I'm 27. Healthy. Not going to be taking the vaccine. I've heard of far too many cases of people being essentially bed ridden for 24-48 hours with awful sickness after taking it.

It's the tiniest of inconveniences considering the protection you'd get. And plenty of people out there don't get any side effects at all.

That, along with my phobia of needles is all I need to tell me that I'd rather give it a miss.

The needle is extremely fine. You'd probably not even feel it.

I could understand / sympathise with other reasons for not wanting the jab - worries about test cycles not being long enough, or having a health condition or allergy that could end up with a vaccination becoming harmful and counterproductive. Not wanting it because of your relative youth..ok, understandable too I guess. Fear of needles or the possibility of a day or two of illness are really just minor inconveniences though.

These cases if they do exist are few and and far between.
People willingly go to pubs on a night out and drink to excess knowing fine well that they are going to be spending the next day feeling terrible.

Exactly.

 

[DB]

These cases if they do exist are few and and far between.
People willingly go to pubs on a night out and drink to excess knowing fine well that they are going to be spending the next day feeling terrible.

That's their choice though - the government isn't trying to coerce and bully them into going out on the lash.

 

[AlterEgo]

Great. So people like me who absolutely refuse to take the vaccine need to accept that we are toxic, filthy scum who deserve to be excluded from society.

No doubt some people will end up committing suicide over this, but that might even be the intention from this increasingly fascist dictatorship - a quick way to get get rid of some of those who they clearly regard as the "useless eaters" of our time.

A ridiculous post which undermines your credibility.

 

[bengley]

These cases if they do exist are few and and far between.
People willingly go to pubs on a night out and drink to excess knowing fine well that they are going to be spending the next day feeling terrible.

I know of two people in my close friends' family circles where the side effects of the vaccine have been severe, with the latest one reporting he felt the sickest he's ever felt in his life. He's 52 so has been sick a good few times.

He's fully recovered of course, but I'm not willing to take that risk. I am still skeptical about the long term safety of the vaccine too, it just hasn't been around for long enough yet.

I had glandular fever in 2018 and I felt like I wanted to die, so if the side effects are anywhere near as bad as that then I'm out I'm afraid

 

[AlterEgo]

There are currently at least 170k people in the UK with HIV (compared to around 70k with Covid according to ZOE).

People attending night clubs and things like speed dating events, or signing up to dating websites should have to present a HIV passes confirming that they are not HIV positive.


Can you imagine this being suggested pre-2020? Yet this is now the logic being applied to covid passports. It is utterly bats**t insane and, because take up of the vaccine amonng risk groups has been so high, will make bugger all difference.

Many people will have said this was tin foil hat stuff last year yet here we are.

The one point on it being optional is the biggest pub chain (wetherpoons) is owned by someone who appears to be against heavy restrictions. On that basis, any pub who did choose to implement mandatory vaccine passports would, I suspect, lose out on trade.

Can you catch HIV by standing next to someone for a few minutes?

 

[DB]

A ridiculous post which undermines your credibility.

No, it's not a "ridiculous post". Your comment just highlights that people like you simply cannot see the harm which this vicious government is causing.

Can you catch HIV by standing next to someone for a few minutes?

But that is balanced out by HIV being far more dangerous, and a lifelong condition. There is at least as strong a case for "HIV passports" as their is for "Covid passports", and that is absolutely not the way in which society should be heading.

 

[AlterEgo]

Any party which brings in or supports (and i include abstaining) this medical fascism will be dead to me, forever.

It does appear that quite a number of us will be politically homeless after this. These are mad times. I'm a supporter of the vaccine but not for domestic restrictions. People deserve the right to refuse a medical intervention without being excluded from society.