Vaccine Progress, Approval, and Deployment

[Horizon22]

Surely we should be able to vaccinate 7 days a week?

You could say the same about the railway service - things in all walks of life are slower on Sunday.

 

[Crossover]

The hospital where I work were literally begging workers to just walk in for a vaccine this morning as they apparently had a load going spare that would otherwise expire by a certain time in the morning

I believe they're using the Pfizer vaccine, is it a case of once they're taken out of the freezer they can't go back in? Seems a bit of a shame to just go to waste like that

I believe with the Pfizer vaccine, its more specific than that. I suspect that no, it can't be refrozen, but I believe (read it here I think) that it has an agent added and once this is done, it has a lifespan for use measured in hours

 

[Ediswan]

I believe the agent which is added to the Pfizer vaccine is water. It does seem that it comes in batches of just under 1,000 doses and a clock starts as soon as a batch is taken out of the deep freeze and shipped. Perfect planning for this is nigh on impossible. Either you have some people turned away because the supply has been used up, or you have some waste. I suspect (no evidence whatsoever) that systems of 'standby' recipients will be created.

 

[158756]

Surely we should be able to vaccinate 7 days a week?

I don't know how the GP based vaccination centres work, if it's just the usual staff or if extra helpers have been found, but a lot are in places that don't usually open on Sunday.

 

[Domh245]

I believe they're using the Pfizer vaccine, is it a case of once they're taken out of the freezer they can't go back in? Seems a bit of a shame to just go to waste like that

Usage instructions are on the government website. For Pfizer/BioNTech:

6.4 Special precautions for storage​

Store in a freezer at -80 °C to -60 °C.

Store in the thermal container at -90 ºC to -60 ºC.

Store in the original package in order to protect from light.

Once removed from the freezer, the undiluted vaccine can be stored for up to 5 days at 2 °C to 8 °C, and up to 2 hours at temperatures up to 25 °C, prior to use. During storage, minimise exposure to room light, and avoid exposure to direct sunlight and ultraviolet light. Thawed vials can be handled in room light conditions.

After dilution, store the vaccine at 2 °C to 25 °C and use as soon as practically possible and within 6 hours. The vaccine does not contain a preservative. Discard any unused vaccine.

Once diluted, the vials should be marked with the dilution time and discarded within 6 hours of dilution.

Once thawed, the vaccine cannot be re-frozen.

(Each vial is 5 doses, each pack is 195 vials)

Ox/AZ has similar restrictions once the vial has been opened (6 hours from opening to disposal) although it has double the doses per vial

Moderna guidelines are also up even though we're not due any for a while. Operationally it's the same as AZ in terms of a 6 hour window to use the 10 doses in the vial, though preparation is considerably more involved as like Pfizer it needs thawing first

 

[MadCommuter]

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread; I've scanned through but couldn't see anything.

There is talk of moving to the next phase of recipients in the spring, but surely that is when the first phase of recipients will need to have their second dose? Perhaps further ramping up will cover this, but is that possible?

 

[HSTEd]

There is talk of moving to the next phase of recipients in the spring, but surely that is when the first phase of recipients will need to have their second dose? Perhaps further ramping up will cover this, but is that possible?

well at two million per week we would only need two weeks for everyone done so far. Six weeks in.

Also , the J&J vaccine will hopefully become availabile in a couple of weeks enabling another step change in vaccination rate

 

[The Ham]

well at two million per week we would only need two weeks for everyone done so far. Six weeks in.

Also , the J&J vaccine will hopefully become availabile in a couple of weeks enabling another step change in vaccination rate

Chances are it would be slightly more spread out and take just over 3 weeks so that we keep moving forwards with first doses (the train for just over 3 weeks rather than 4 weeks, is that some people have already had their second dose and there may be a few extra done between now and then with people being in the right place at the right time to use up doses at the end of the day).

The main issue with the speed of delivery is that of vaccine supply, once that's sorted then it should be possible to vaccinate a lot of people very quickly.

For instance if you limit the ability of the NHS to do certain things which don't materially impact on quality of life then assuming that you've got hospital admissions down to manageable levels then you could use that spare capacity to vaccinate at speed.

For instance you could, fairly easily take a lot of your student doctors and nurses and put them into vaccination centers at Easter and then use them again during their summer holidays to give the same people their second vaccine. Possibly with a second group done just before the 12 week window so that they are then done again 4 weeks later (towards the end of that holiday period).

You could even have temporary centers, I live in a village of about 8,000, if you assume 2,000 for the under 18's we'd need a centre for a week if it could achieve 1,000 a day. Even at 500/day it's two weeks. However if it achieved 750/day over 2 weeks and assuming that 1,000 had already been done then it's likely that we could cover off a lot, if not all, of the other smaller local villages (within 4 miles which basically add 10,000 of population).

There's a local community centre with a sports hall and a decent room which would be big enough to act as a reception and a passageway which would allow a bit of waiting space undercover.

Yes it would only need to exist at Easter and for two weeks in the summer but it would get quite a lot of people done with it being much easier to access for those who would be using it (including driving as well as by walking and public transport) than the permanent mass site which the group of surgeries have set up. It would therefore mean less need to do mopping up seasons within the local surgeries.

 

[ChrisC]

The hospital where I work were literally begging workers to just walk in for a vaccine this morning as they apparently had a load going spare that would otherwise expire by a certain time in the morning

I believe they're using the Pfizer vaccine, is it a case of once they're taken out of the freezer they can't go back in? Seems a bit of a shame to just go to waste like that

My 85 year old mother has been in hospital for the last 3 weeks and despite us continually asking them she still has not received her vaccination. It is worrying enough, with the current Covid situation in hospitals her having to be there following a stroke, but if they had given her the vaccine when she was first admitted she would have certain amount of immunity by now. Very annoying when all of her friends in the village of similar age have now had theirs and she hasn’t.

 

[Domh245]

My 85 year old mother has been in hospital for the last 3 weeks and despite us continually asking them she still has not received her vaccination. It is worrying enough, with the current Covid situation in hospitals her having to be there following a stroke, but if they had given her the vaccine when she was first admitted she would have certain amount of immunity by now. Very annoying when all of her friends in the village of similar age have now had theirs and she hasn’t.

There are inevitably complications for giving a vaccine to someone who's been hospitalised that will be making them hesitant to give her the vaccine - particularly if she's either immunocompromised or (perhaps more likely given she had a stroke) on anticoagulation therapy.

Hope she can be given the vaccine and discharged from hospital soon

 

[brad465]

We can add an average immunity from antibody presence of 10% in December to the immunity the vaccines should be providing:

Covid: Positive antibody tests doubled since autumn

Some 10% of the UK population is showing signs of recent infection, a doubling since October, says ONS.

www.bbc.co.uk

About one in 10 people across the UK tested positive for Covid-19 antibodies in December, roughly double the October figure, data has shown.

Estimates from the Office for National Statistics suggest between 8% of people in Northern Ireland and 12% of people in England showed signs of recent Covid infection.

In October, antibody positivity ranged from 2% to 7% around the UK.

And 6,586 Covid deaths were registered in the UK in the week to 8 January.

That brings the total registered so far close to 96,000.

Yorkshire and the Humber led the chart with 17% of people having positive antibodies.

 

[Yew]

We can add an average immunity from antibody presence of 10% in December to the immunity the vaccines should be providing:

Covid: Positive antibody tests doubled since autumn

Some 10% of the UK population is showing signs of recent infection, a doubling since October, says ONS.

www.bbc.co.uk

Other studies have shown higher numbers with that, too, as antibodies fade with time, but T/B cell immunity persists.

 

[hwl]

We can add an average immunity from antibody presence of 10% in December to the immunity the vaccines should be providing:

Covid: Positive antibody tests doubled since autumn

Some 10% of the UK population is showing signs of recent infection, a doubling since October, says ONS.

www.bbc.co.uk

As long as any strains with S-484 mutations stay out of the UK!

 

[Bantamzen]

As long as any strains with S-484 mutations stay out of the UK!

Or perhaps b-cell mutation as a response of both direct infection or vaccine might be able to cope with such variants?

 

[Yew]

As long as any strains with S-484 mutations stay out of the UK!

Is there any clear evidence of the being unaffected by the immune responses?

 

[HSTEd]

We can add an average immunity from antibody presence of 10% in December to the immunity the vaccines should be providing:

Covid: Positive antibody tests doubled since autumn

Some 10% of the UK population is showing signs of recent infection, a doubling since October, says ONS.

www.bbc.co.uk

Unfortunately this effect will reduce over time because we have no way of determining who those people are, so they will be vaccinated at about the same rate as the rest of the population.

 

[greyman42]

The hospital where I work were literally begging workers to just walk in for a vaccine this morning as they apparently had a load going spare that would otherwise expire by a certain time in the morning

I believe they're using the Pfizer vaccine, is it a case of once they're taken out of the freezer they can't go back in? Seems a bit of a shame to just go to waste like that

Would it have been possible to put out this information on local radio/TV? I am sure there would of been plenty of takers. Out of interest, where was this?

You could say the same about the railway service - things in all walks of life are slower on Sunday.

Many sectors operate 24/7. If you are rostered on, on a Sunday or bank holiday then you have to work it and you don't get to do it any slower.

 

[Horizon22]

Would it have been possible to put out this information on local radio/TV? I am sure there would of been plenty of takers. Out of interest, where was this?


Many sectors operate 24/7. If you are rostered on, on a Sunday or bank holiday then you have to work it and you don't get to do it any slower.

I meant more with fewer trains and also engineering works ongoing so trains are diverted / slower / more changes.

 

[greyman42]

I meant more with fewer trains and also engineering works ongoing so trains are diverted / slower / more changes.

Regarding the rail industry, i see your point.

 

[Horizon22]

Regarding the rail industry, i see your point.

And I'm sure the railway industry isn't the only one where operations are slightly amended on a Sunday and aren't as fast as they would be the rest of the week. In fact you only need to look at the lag in death reporting for Covid on the weekends to show this is the case.

 

[hwl]

Is there any clear evidence of the being unaffected by the immune responses?

The latest research from SA is that certain parts of the immune response (measured in patients who get Covid for a second time) is far slower in those who have the 484K mutation strain than for the non 484K strains.
The main effect appears that the affected patients are very good at spreading it but not having the worst of symptoms themselves during that time lag (while the body learns to make new more effective antibodies that are more effective at "sticking" to viruses with the 484k mutation, in better news T cell effectiveness appears the same )
(This might also help explain the high transmission rates in Manaus with those reinfected being very good at re-transmitting)

Vaccine acquired immunity may (based on some work so far) be better than naturally acquired in terms of protecting against 484k strains for the first time.

 

[Philip]

First-dose vaccinations yesterday totalled about 170000 for England which is quite a lot lower than the day totals towards the end of last week, so the lower numbers on Sunday probably weren't caused by 'the Sunday effect'. It was said last week that there might be lower vaccination numbers some days because of the Pfizer vaccine delivery problems.

Hopefully today's case numbers will provide more positivity, by continuing the downward trend!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My parents, both in their mid 70s and not considered extremely vulnerable, are booked in for their jabs next week after being contacted by their GP surgery this morning. They are not going to their normal GP surgery, but have been booked in to another surgery which is part of the same partnership about 6 miles away.

Clearly progress is being made rapidly.

 

[cuccir]

I must admit that two weeks ago I was very skeptical about the numbers being talked about in terms of vaccinations - I didn't believe that the targets could be made. So I'm pleasantly surprised by the number of people who are getting vaccines: during the week it's going up 0.5% a day, which is really quite something.

 

[brad465]

Election Maps UK has been doing graphics for rolling total vaccinations, with the current statistics so far available here:

Vaccinations — Election Maps UK

electionmaps.uk

 

[Philip]

A good number of vaccinations done yesterday, nearly 300,000 in England and somewhere around 350,000 in the UK.

 

[Typhoon]

This is encouraging as the impression I got locally is not so positive. I only know one person who has received a vaccination, and they are not that local. This maybe because many of those who live near me who are over 80 use specialist transport to get out so will probably need to be vaccinated at home. There is one man, a carer in his 90s, who was told that the vaccines had run out. We also know of other appointments cancelled because the vaccine was delivered to the wrong place (miles away) or not at all. Individual incidents will undoubtedly occur in an exercise so large but for those immediately affected it will increase anxiety.

I hear that there are quite a few drive throughs which will be useful for the mass vaccinations (for those with cars) which will be useful for building up the numbers so limit the spread, those who rely on public transport or are basically housebound will be rather more labour intensive. (At least one area may be offered vaccinations involving a round trip of over 5 hours on public transport.)

 

[Class 317]

I've noticed a few comments in recent news shows that Israel is finding that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine is less effective at preventing infection than Pfizer's suggestion of about 50%. I think the suggestion I heard was it may be a third less effective.

This is worrying as it would seem to suggest a slower reduction in hospital admissions and deaths than previously assumed.

If further data suggests the same it could mean the 12 week gap between doses may prove a bad decision and need to be reviewed.

Hope it's proved not to be the case as it's only the first batch of data from Israel. Israel has I believe signed up to lots of research and data sharing with Pfizer to get extra doses early so it will be interesting to keep an eye on what happens there.

 

[Typhoon]

I've noticed a few comments in recent news shows that Israel is finding that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine is less effective at preventing infection than Pfizer's suggestion of about 50%. I think the suggestion I heard was it may be a third less effective.

This is worrying as it would seem to suggest a slower reduction in hospital admissions and deaths than previously assumed.

If further data suggests the same it could mean the 12 week gap between doses may prove a bad decision and need to be reviewed.

Hope it's proved not to be the case as it's only the first batch of data from Israel. Israel has I believe signed up to lots of research and data sharing with Pfizer to get extra doses early so it will be interesting to keep an eye on what happens there.

I have read marginally different figures but essentially that Israel has found the Pfizer vaccination less effective than first thought. Agree with the emboldened - it would be better that the most vulnerable were given the full shot than those at much lower risk given the first. It was always likely that there will be variances, some might prove more effective some less, simply because of the trial process. As has been posted above, we are well set and the odd hiccup shouldn't be much of a set back. We do, though, need to ensure that we monitor patients after the second dose of the vaccine to ensure that they are reasonably immune.[/b][/b]

 

[HSTEd]

I've noticed a few comments in recent news shows that Israel is finding that one dose of the Pfizer vaccine is less effective at preventing infection than Pfizer's suggestion of about 50%. I think the suggestion I heard was it may be a third less effective.

The problem with this is that Israel has not deigned to release its figures, and the Pfizer 52% figure is nonsensical anyway.

To get 52% you have to count from the second the plunger on the syringe is in.
Which is simply idiotic.