Virgin rail 'bullies'

[EM2]

But if you agreed to buy a £450 washing machine but decided you would only pay £350, and take the washing machine home anyway, then you may well expect to be arrested.

 

[Bellwater]

It looks like railway workers closing ranks to the outside world. That may not matter from the inside but if the woman has made a claim of intimidation of a minor and being told by a paid official she was okay to board, those routes need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be the case rather than automatically assuming yet another 'scrote' is trying it on and publicly upsetting everyone's apple cart. That's simply the us vs them attitude I believe is often evident, if not prevalent.

i would wait until the allegations above are proved or not...

 

[colpepper]

i would wait until the allegations above are proved or not...

That is an excellent suggestion. I waited quite a while before getting involved in this thread and eventually did so because of the opprobrium being heaped on the woman without the case being proven either way, much of it from railway workers.

 

[Bellwater]

It's probably because:

it's in the Daily Mail, the voice of over-reaction
it's Virgin WC, who aren't possible for various reasons

We only know the DM's account, however... on boarding the 0931 instead of the 0951, it's not that hard to tell them apart, at a big station like Cov.

All the rest i don't know.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I don't think Rail Staff are closing ranks, I just think that many folk seem to want everything for nothing.

I have booked some Advance tickets for a journey in March. At all stages during the booking process It was clear what the ticket was valid for. In addition, my confirmation email was very clear aswell. I attach images below of extracts from the concise email.

It can clearly be seen that the conditions are clear - it is valid only on the one train. It also says that you cannot travel on the reference number or email (which many people seem to think they can do as well).

None of this information is hidden. The confirmation email is not massive and this information is not buried away on some conditions page that I need to read separately. It is clear as day on the email - which is actually not that big and fits easily on one screen.

As an added reminder the ticket itself also says "Booked Train Only" and "Valid only with reservations" on it.

Now, what is difficult about all this?

 

[DarloRich]

If I went to Currys and asked for a washing machine that performed x, y and z and the assistant assured me the £350 machine would, I would not expect to be arrested if a £450 washer was brought out of storage because I requested those three facilities. The comparison is an interesting one however as white goods are clearly marked and if I didn't like the attitude of Curry's staff I could go to another shop or on-line and buy exactly the same thing. Railway travel offers no such competition for an equivalent service, TOCs would claim I was being duplicitous in expecting a fast wash cycle on a £350 machine and should take whatever penalties came my way for being so presumptuous.

Agreed - and that is my whole point IF a Virgin employee looked at thier tickets and travel paperwork and said yes i note the ticket says 0951 but you are ok to get the 0933 without penalty then they should stick to thier guns and go to court.

It all depends on the questions asked of the station employee. (as has been said on here quite a lot)

My personal opinion is that they either didnt ask or simply asked if this was a train for london NOT here is my ticket, is it valid on this service.

 

[Oswyntail]

Whatever the circumstances of the original case (and I suspect few, if any, on this board actually know them), I do believe it is true that TOCs have brought on themselves a lot of trouble in the area of fare evasion of the kind suspected. The over-complex structure of available times and routes, fare rises to pay for non-existent "improvements", together with the frankly rapacious costs of walk-on tickets in some areas, has produced a public image of TOCs that are out to screw the customer at every opportunity. There will be plenty of sympathy for anyone who, even with no right on their side, could be seen to be getting back at the villainous TOC. In no way do I condone this. But, sometimes, TOCs do sound like loan sharks who smile and say "the contract did say 10% interest - per day."

 

[colpepper]

I just think that many folk seem to want everything for nothing.

I don't believe that's the case. Walk on prices have become truly extortionate since privatisation, there's a difference between wanting 'owt for nowt and TOCs taking the mickey. As one chap said when told the price of a first class ticket to Manchester from Euston so he could get some work done in peace and wasn't sure when he would return, 'I want to travel to Manchester, not buy it.'

I've also been a long time KWVR member BTW.

 

[Ferret]

That is an excellent suggestion. I waited quite a while before getting involved in this thread and eventually did so because of the opprobrium being heaped on the woman without the case being proven either way, much of it from railway workers.

Of course there is another angle here. As per kwvr's post, at all stages it is made abundantly clear exactly what the conditions are. Hell, it even says 'BOOKED TRAIN ONLY' on the ticket, so I'd have to question why she even felt the need to ask the bloke at the station in the first place!

I too am with Virgin on this - far too many times I've jeard gibber like 'the guard was aggressive', 'I didn't like his attitude' - these are 9 times out of 10 the responses of someone who has done wrong and broken the 11th commandment; thou shalt not get found out.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

None of you seem to be interested in this from the normals view. Yes booked train only, yes on the wrong train. So excess the ticket as would happen if you were booked plane or ferry only. The T&C clause which states that the ticket has zero value if used in error is frankly ludicrous.

Is the job of the railway to pursue anyone who has got something wrong with self-righteous zeal to collect an enormous unjustified fine? Or is it to compete against car plane and bus for business? I say it again - to normals advance ticketing offers an enormous fine if you get it wrong with money already paid discounted, something that no airline does. And the way such people are treated is as if they are criminals.

I couldn't give a monkeys about the T&Cs and I almost don't care about this individual case. It just highlights the utter madness of a railway industry that has dissappeared up its own backside with a ticketing system full of bear traps.

 

[Darandio]

I couldn't give a monkeys about the T&Cs and I almost don't care about this individual case. It just highlights the utter madness of a railway industry that has dissappeared up its own backside with a ticketing system full of bear traps.

Hold on a moment, the T&C comment speaks volumes before we even start however, if you don't care about the case, why quote a ticketing system full of traps.

Look at the individual case, thats what the thread is about. I and many others have merely pointed out that if you buy this type of advance ticket, it tells you numerous times what needs to be done. Where are the traps?

 

[Greenback]

There is a fight to be waged for a better fares system, but this is not the right case to start a campaign about.

Many walk on fares are unaffordable for most people, and they are getting higher, but relaxing the conditions of Advance tickets is not the answer.

Personally, I would love to see Advance tickets completely abolished, and the huge walk on fares drastically reduced. This is not going to happen under the present structure of the railway industry.

Of course, 'normals' like to have tickets for £12.50, but they also want the same benefits as someone who has paid £150. If I buy a second hand mini I don't expect to get a BMW. Perhaps I should? Is eem to be out of step with the rest of our consumer society.

 

[Flamingo]

None of you seem to be interested in this from the normals view. Yes booked train only, yes on the wrong train. So excess the ticket as would happen if you were booked plane or ferry only. The T&C clause which states that the ticket has zero value if used in error is frankly ludicrous.

Is the job of the railway to pursue anyone who has got something wrong with self-righteous zeal to collect an enormous unjustified fine? Or is it to compete against car plane and bus for business? I say it again - to normals advance ticketing offers an enormous fine if you get it wrong with money already paid discounted, something that no airline does. And the way such people are treated is as if they are criminals.

I couldn't give a monkeys about the T&Cs and I almost don't care about this individual case. It just highlights the utter madness of a railway industry that has dissappeared up its own backside with a ticketing system full of bear traps.

Tell you what, go away, actually read the T&C for Advance Tickets, then come back and comment on them and say what you think is unreasonable in them, and how it could be improved in a way that would still protect the revenue. Remember, Advance tickets are there to put bums on seats on otherwise quiet trains.

Here's the link, to make it easy for you: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=289

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Hold on a moment, the T&C comment speaks volumes before we even start however, if you don't care about the case, why quote a ticketing system full of traps.

Look at the individual case, thats what the thread is about. I and many others have merely pointed out that if you buy this type of advance ticket, it tells you numerous times what needs to be done. Where are the traps?

A ticket that you paid money for which suddenly becomes worthless if used on the wrong train regardless of circumstance? An utterly illogical pricing structure which makes vacating your seat early (thus depriving the operator of nothing) a crime worth of a very large fine. Or one where booking from A-C via B direct is significantly more expensive than booking the identical ticket with identical restrictions split at B.

Again, step back from the Terms and Conditions and think rationally about how normals think about what is logical, sensible and just. Then ask who is in the right. Sanity? Or the terms and conditions? Clearly punters have a choice whether or not to buy a ticket and accept the T&Cs. Which is where Rail loses passengers to other more sensibly-priced modes.

Whether or not this family acted accidentally or deliberately is not for me the issue. its whether or not a specific train only ticket has retained value if that specific train gets modified? Or whether the automatic assumption that the 14 year old boy is a heinous criminal who needs to be threatened with jail is a sensible reaction to him travelling 20 minutes too early.

If threatening him with jail - so that he will never travel by train again - is sensible because his parents should have digested the T&Cs then I will shut up. Is it?

 

[Flamingo]

I don't believe that's the case. Walk on prices have become truly extortionate since privatisation, there's a difference between wanting 'owt for nowt and TOCs taking the mickey. As one chap said when told the price of a first class ticket to Manchester from Euston so he could get some work done in peace and wasn't sure when he would return, 'I want to travel to Manchester, not buy it.'

Walk-on prices reflect the costs of running the railway, which has high costs, both for everyday running and maintenance and involves a phenomenal level of capital investment. The fares themselves are micromanaged by the DFT. Also, in the current political (rather than economic IMHO) climate, the level of taxpayer subsidy is going to have to be reduced. Take it up with your MP if you think that should be different.

I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my flight to Florida, or my car journey to work. Why should your friend expect MY taxes to subsidise his desire to travel First Class on a train.

I've also been a long time KWVR member BTW.

Good for you, However, please remember that there is a difference between a 5 mile hobby-train taking tourists on 20 minute jaunts, and working a HST with 400 Swansea City fans across the country at 125 MPH, not to mention running a selection of different traction, transporting millions of people a year across a large part of the British Isles, and keeping the whole thing moving (and paid for).

I drive a car. It doesn't mean I know how to run an F1 team.

 

[mumrar]

If I buy a second hand mini I don't expect to get a BMW.

In an attempt to lighten the thread away from the ridiculous hyperbole, unless you're buying the original shape Mini, when you buy a used Mini you WILL be getting a BMW of course

 

[Darandio]

In an attempt to lighten the thread away from the ridiculous hyperbole, unless you're buying the original shape Mini, when you buy a used Mini you WILL be getting a BMW of course

Lightened it for me.

 

[Flamingo]

There is only one Mini - and it was made by BMC.

 

[Greenback]

A ticket that you paid money for which suddenly becomes worthless if used on the wrong train regardless of circumstance? An utterly illogical pricing structure which makes vacating your seat early (thus depriving the operator of nothing) a crime worth of a very large fine. Or one where booking from A-C via B direct is significantly more expensive than booking the identical ticket with identical restrictions split at B.

Again, step back from the Terms and Conditions and think rationally about how normals think about what is logical, sensible and just. Then ask who is in the right. Sanity? Or the terms and conditions? Clearly punters have a choice whether or not to buy a ticket and accept the T&Cs. Which is where Rail loses passengers to other more sensibly-priced modes.

Whether or not this family acted accidentally or deliberately is not for me the issue. its whether or not a specific train only ticket has retained value if that specific train gets modified? Or whether the automatic assumption that the 14 year old boy is a heinous criminal who needs to be threatened with jail is a sensible reaction to him travelling 20 minutes too early.

If threatening him with jail - so that he will never travel by train again - is sensible because his parents should have digested the T&Cs then I will shut up. Is it?

Unless I've msised something, we don't know whether the boy was actually threatened with prison, or whether it was a letter warning of posisble consequences of a course of action, or whether there was a letter at all. Any letter is an irrelevance that is only brought up by people who want to bolster a weak argument.

I'm not in favour of people being charged Anytime tickets as a matter of course, but neithe ram I in favour of people dleliberately flouting the rules and then crying when they are caught out.

Sorry, I've now ruined the lightening of this thread again!

 

[Flamingo]

If threatening him with jail - so that he will never travel by train again - is sensible because his parents should have digested the T&Cs then I will shut up. Is it?

If he is going to grow up with the same attitude that seems to have been displayed by his parents (contracts and conditions are for other people, if we shout loud enough we'll get our own way, I know my rights, not my responsibilities), then that's the sort of passenger the railways can do without. What do you care, are you a shareholder with Virgin?

 

[Bellwater]

I've also been a long time KWVR member BTW.

Oh dear - that says it all i'm afraid!! :roll:

 

[asylumxl]

I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my flight to Florida.

Seeing as they don't pay tax on fuel, surely in a way the taxpayer is subsidising it, by paying money in taxes that could be raised from the airline companies?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

And we have to bear in mind that this story was in the Daily Hurrah for the Blackshirts, so isn't obviously clear and factual. But the notion of "ticket fraudster" being treated like a criminal for being on the wrong train isn't exactly a leap of the imagination.

One aspect of banking that I've been following is the battle with the banks over unfair charges. These were in the Terms and Conditions, but were eventually declared unlawful due to the ludicrously disproportionate nature of so many of them. I'd argue that fining passengers an enormous amount of money for being on the wrong train in any circumstance is disproportionate. At the very least excess the AP ticket up to the valid fare rather than this silly notion that no ticket is held. The fact that its in the T&Cs doesn't make "your ticket is now invalid and therefore worthless" sensible. Having missed a plane due to traffic my AP ticket was traded for one valid on the next flight - I paid the difference, I didn't lose the cash spent on the AP ticket.

We need a simplified ticketing structure where it doesn't have insanities like Thornaby - Croydon AR being significantly more expensive than Thornaby to York AR plus York - Croydon AR. Fewer petty "its in the T&C" restrictions set out to catch people who make an error, fewer "I'm sorry your GC train has broken down, you must buy another ticket for onward travel with NXEC and write to GC's MD for a refund later" scenarios. Where privatisation utterly failed was the notion that punters think that each TOC is different and therefore OK not to cooperate. Its a train. As opposed to another form of transport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If he is going to grow up with the same attitude that seems to have been displayed by his parents (contracts and conditions are for other people, if we shout loud enough we'll get our own way, I know my rights, not my responsibilities), then that's the sort of passenger the railways can do without. What do you care, are you a shareholder with Virgin?

*sigh*

Yes, passengers are the enemy. I'm sure that is the right attitude to hold. Perhaps we could print this thread on the Blackshirts website so that we can put even more people off train travel.

From what I remember of travelling with my dad when I was 14, I left what ticket to buy to him. His crime here - and as you seem to be suggesting that he be barred from the railways crime is a suitable word - was to travel with his parents. Not quite sure what active part you think he played in this criminal attempt to defraud Virgin Trains was, but you'd bar him anyway.

As I've said a few times to many deaf ears, exactly the right kind of jobsworth attitude that puts normals off.

 

[Flamingo]

Sigh,

Jobsworth, the cry of every idiot that has been caught. Are you sure you don't want to say that we are like concentration camp guards as well?

Anyway, WTF is a "normals"? Normal people manage to navigate the railway system OK, the vast majority of passengers have no problems, and staff have no problems with them. Some passengers require assistance or guidance, again, that is provided without any drama.

If by "normals" you mean people like you or the chancers in the Daily Mail, shouldn't you put "sub" in front of it, to be more accurate?

I must remember to use your line of reasoning the next time I'm travelling with an airline, they are all air-planes, aren't they? If BA are on strike, I'll just jump on a US Airways and wave my BA ticket.

 

[Bellwater]

Normals = Punters. Enthusiast term i believe....

 

[yorkie]

This thread is going round in circles.

I actually think RochdalePioneers has some very good points; he is not complaining at the fact that there is a charge for using an AP ticket on the wrong train. He is complaining that the charge is disproportionate. I agree. Watchdog agrees. The general public, I believe, largely agree.

Will a court agree? I doubt it will ever be fully tested, but I hope one day that it is.

None of you seem to be interested in this from the normals view.

Not good practice to use such a term. A "normal" in "basher"-speak means someone who is travelling for the purpose of actually getting somewhere. A "basher" is someone who travels for the enjoyment (or, in some cases, obsession/compulsion) of travelling, for one or more of a variety of reasons (to ride behind a particular (class of) locomotive; to experience a particular route or piece of track ("line bashing"); or various other reasons). I recommend slang words used by "bashers" (or any other group) are not used, at least not in the Fares & Ticketing section, and at least without an explanation of what they mean! The vast majority of people here are, what bashers would call, "normals" and would have no idea what "bashers" mean by the term!

 

[Zoe]

Walk-on prices reflect the costs of running the railway, which has high costs, both for everyday running and maintenance and involves a phenomenal level of capital investment. The fares themselves are micromanaged by the DFT.

How do the TOCs afford to have these dirt cheap advance farres? It seems that these fares are in part subsidized by people paying the full fare. When you say fares are micromanaged by the dft, fares are regulated yes and this is a good thing. I'm sure certain TOCs would like nothing more than to force people to pay the full Anytime fare if they don't book in advance.

 

[asylumxl]

I recommend slang words used by "bashers" (or any other group) are not used, at least not in the Fares & Ticketing section, and at least without an explanation of what they mean! The vast majority of people here are, what bashers would call, "normals" and would have no idea what "bashers" mean by the term!

I agree. I do like trains, but I use them to commute and I still really don't really get bashers (especially the ones who do that action out droplights).

 

[yorkie]

Walk-on fares and Advance fares are all about yield management and are based on market pricing. It isn't really about recouping or matching costs. it's about supply & demand, managing peaks and troughs.

I've not heard many people claim AP fares should be abolished, the issue for me (and many others I'm sure) is that the rules are too harsh as the charges are disproportionate. By all means, have a charge, by all means penalise the customer to some extent, but when these charges are as high as the rules allow for, then the TOCs can expect to be in the Press, on Watchdog, and can expect to be challenged in court, can expect people to contact their MPs, and generally take a hard time. If they had asked for something like an excess to the appropriate fare plus a suitable admin fee, then they'd not get the media attention and most people would just pay up!

 

[Bellwater]

How do the TOCs afford to have these dirt cheap advance farres? It seems that these fares are in part subsidized by people paying the full fare.

That's pretty much Bang on Zoe. the cheap fares get people "through the door" so to speak, and they(TOCs)know they will have the regular Season Tickets/Open Returns Cash to rely on.

Unfortunately at least one company seems to sell more advance tickets than there are seats, and on peak hour trains... with space at a premium across much of the country remains to be seen how long these super cheapo tickets last.