West Highland why only 156's?

[Ascot]

even birmingham Snow Hill?

Diabolical

 

[djw1981]

It is the door step position on the 158's which causes the problem IIRC.

The non-RETB 156's can operate on WHL using a portable RETB set (similar to that used by cl66 and 57 when they venture up the WHL on freight trains), however only 15 have permanent sets fitted.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I'd much rather travel on a 156 over a 158 any day!! In fact, October last year I went to Mallaig in one day from Northallerton... 5+ hours on a 156.. nice and cosy, and not too noisy!

 

[driver9000]

Let's face it, I'd rather trust the ploughs on a 156 than on a 158. Could that be a factor? (158 only has those protectors attached to the bogie if I recall correctly?)

They arent snow ploughs, they are deflector plates to stop large objects getting to the wheels. The lower fairing also acts as a deflector on the 158 isnt fitted to the bogie its attached to the front of the train. I believe some 156s had extra parts added to their deflectors to aid clearing of small amounts of snow as were the ScR 158s. Fitted to the bogie is a 'Life guard' that is just ahead of the leading wheels and is designed to prevent the wheels getting damaged by objects that manage to get under the deflector plate.

 

[mralexn]

I'm sure it is also, as laseandre said, to do with the curves. there's a few tight curves that 158s and 170s would be unable to go round. Dunno what's going to happen when the 156s die, though... *prays for MkIIIs*

a *day* version of say the Caledonian sleeper would be ideal for that line. say have 2 seated mk3 coaches and a *dining car* and settle down to a meal with wine while going through some amazing places. would attract lots more people. or failing that, still, mk3s on the line please

 

[MCR247]

This thread is only two years old...

 

[Eng274]

I recall reading that part of the reason the 156s are used is because their generous windows give good views of the scenery..though this might just be FSR marketing spiel.

I went on the WHL to Fort William a couple of years ago, and although I'm not a good judge of speeds when theres little trackside equipment or mile markers (unless i was looking out the wrong side) to figure out the speed, the 156 wasn't exactly toiling, so I think the 158s are probably ringfenced for routes where their higher speeds are better utilised.

 

[CarterUSM]

I recall reading that part of the reason the 156s are used is because their generous windows give good views of the scenery..though this might just be FSR marketing spiel.

I went on the WHL to Fort William a couple of years ago, and although I'm not a good judge of speeds when theres little trackside equipment or mile markers (unless i was looking out the wrong side) to figure out the speed, the 156 wasn't exactly toiling, so I think the 158s are probably ringfenced for routes where their higher speeds are better utilised.

I don't know, they're used on Whifflets nowadays!

 

[rail-britain]

I don't know, they're used on Whifflets nowadays!

Class 158 cascade to release further Class 156 units for the SPT area
The Class 158 has now been removed from the Glasgow - Cumbernauld route and is now Class 156 as standard
The Class 158 is now standard on Glasgow - Shotts - Edinburgh, and allows this diagram to share with Whifflet and Cumbernauld - Motherwell
Thus this leaves Glasgow - Kilmarnock / East Kilbride with Class 156, which will see further strengthening on Kilmarnock and Paisley Canal services

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

This thread is only two years old...

So what!:-x

 

[4SRKT]

I recall reading that part of the reason the 156s are used is because their generous windows give good views of the scenery..though this might just be FSR marketing spiel.

I agree that the larger windows (that you can partially open on hot days) give much better visibility than from a 158. Which begs the question why 156s aren't used instead of 158s on the Far North and Kyle lines.

I remember when 156s first came out everbody thought they were great. Loco-hauled style seating in a DMU? Nothing of the kind had been seen since the Trans-Pennine DMUs. Now people can write, without irony, "why only 156s"! I'd far rather have a 156 on any working than a 158 TBH, although I'd equally rather have a 158 than a 170 or a 185, whose suburban bodyshells are inappropriate for long distance workings, particularly on routes in Scotland where the disappearance of half the body side at every stop allows freezing wind and sleet to roar around the saloon!


Say 'NEVER' to 170s on the West Highland!

 

[asylumxl]

Probably not FSR reason, but I'd imagine the plug doors provide far better insulation than sliding doors. Especially considering the unreliable nature of 158 a/c.

 

[route:oxford]

I'd love to see a similar design to this on the "Tourist" lines in Scotland.

http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/RZW_RhB_2.Serie_Nachbau_0106_e.pdf

Just need to sort out suitable traction, I'm sure Stadler could come up with something...

 

[First ScotRail]

the 158s are not passed for the WHL due to platform strikes being possible...

 

[Eng274]

I agree that the larger windows (that you can partially open on hot days) give much better visibility than from a 158. Which begs the question why 156s aren't used instead of 158s on the Far North and Kyle lines.

I remember when 156s first came out everbody thought they were great. Loco-hauled style seating in a DMU? Nothing of the kind had been seen since the Trans-Pennine DMUs. Now people can write, without irony, "why only 156s"! I'd far rather have a 156 on any working than a 158 TBH, although I'd equally rather have a 158 than a 170 or a 185, whose suburban bodyshells are inappropriate for long distance workings, particularly on routes in Scotland where the disappearance of half the body side at every stop allows freezing wind and sleet to roar around the saloon!


Say 'NEVER' to 170s on the West Highland!

I agree, the 156 is perfect for the route and although i do like 158s they'd be out of place on the WHL. Why they are used on Far North/kyle lines is a mystery, though maybe TS/FSR are quietly happy with them rather than say "can we swap these younger, better units for ones with bigger windows for the tourists" knowing the severe capacity shortage in Northern England - i can imagine northern would happily trade some pacers for unwanted 158s. That would be an uncomfy 4/5 hours to Mallaig with the jointed track too.

Worse so for the 170, it would really struggle for pace on some of the inclines, they are sedentary enough on flat terrain!

 

[CarterUSM]

Class 158 cascade to release further Class 156 units for the SPT area
The Class 158 has now been removed from the Glasgow - Cumbernauld route and is now Class 156 as standard
The Class 158 is now standard on Glasgow - Shotts - Edinburgh, and allows this diagram to share with Whifflet and Cumbernauld - Motherwell
Thus this leaves Glasgow - Kilmarnock / East Kilbride with Class 156, which will see further strengthening on Kilmarnock and Paisley Canal services

Whens that starting? Haven't seen 158's on Motherwell to cumbernaulds, they are certainly not diagramed for it yet, the unit concerned runs as the 2246 whifflet, Ecs to Motherwell, and runs as the Cumbernaulds all the following day, runs empty to Central from Motherwell at 2234 that night and ties up at central to make a 4 car 2307 Paisley Canal. There is only one 158 diagramed for whifflet and it runs between 12 to 9 roughly. Central crews only work 156's to waverley too, Edinburgh work the 158's. 156's are perfect for the WHL, if a little cold in the winter sometimes!

 

[tbtc]

I agree that the larger windows (that you can partially open on hot days) give much better visibility than from a 158. Which begs the question why 156s aren't used instead of 158s on the Far North and Kyle lines

We have plenty Pacers which have nice big windows and can cope with low speeds - sure we can't tempt you? I'd happily put comfortable "coach" seats in them, if you don't want the benches.

158s on the Far North is just another example on a long list of "stock that shouldn't be used on a route, whilst other routes elsewhere struggle to cope with other stock"...

 

[4SRKT]

We have plenty Pacers which have nice big windows and can cope with low speeds - sure we can't tempt you? I'd happily put comfortable "coach" seats in them, if you don't want the benches.

158s on the Far North is just another example on a long list of "stock that shouldn't be used on a route, whilst other routes elsewhere struggle to cope with other stock"...

Listen mush, don't be giving our pacers away! I don't live that far from you and as I'm pacer veg I'm only too happy to be in the heart of Pacer Country!

 

[tbtc]

Listen mush, don't be giving our pacers away! I don't live that far from you and as I'm pacer veg I'm only too happy to be in the heart of Pacer Country!

What about the seven 142s coming from FGW (when the 172 > 150 > 142 merrygoround stops) - we could send them in a Enthusiast Convoy from Devon up to Inverness, then FSR could use them on the Far North line whilst we take a similar number of 158s.

Northern Scotland gets trains with big windows that are good at slow speeds, Northern England gets trains big enough to cope with passenger demand (since Pacers still turn up on Manchester Airport - Liverpool/ Southport, or Manchester Vic - Blackpool), and the Pacer Veg Society get a "once in a lifetime" 500 mile ride on the bounciest stock in the country (shceduled to take a fortnight - bring a packed lunch)

 

[MacCookie]

Whens that starting? Haven't seen 158's on Motherwell to cumbernaulds, they are certainly not diagramed for it yet, the unit concerned runs as the 2246 whifflet, Ecs to Motherwell, and runs as the Cumbernaulds all the following day, runs empty to Central from Motherwell at 2234 that night and ties up at central to make a 4 car 2307 Paisley Canal. There is only one 158 diagramed for whifflet and it runs between 12 to 9 roughly. Central crews only work 156's to waverley too, Edinburgh work the 158's. 156's are perfect for the WHL, if a little cold in the winter sometimes!

There's some truth in what Rail Britain posted, but I don't think he actually understands what's happening. This has all be posted to scot-rail previously, but to summarise:

There's currently one complete 158 diagram on the Caledonian Express, plus a few odd workings as part of longer diagrams. Most services on the Shotts route are currently 156s. May 2010 158 SX diagrams can be found here: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Diagrams:Class+158+SX

From December 2010, the Shotts route will be solely operated by 156s. Glasgow to Whifflet and Motherwell to Cumbernauld will be operated by 158s. As part of this transfer, one or two Whifflet workings have been covered by a 158 to help with crew training and familiarisation.

As for Glasgow to Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston, should be 158s in the current timetable and 158s in the December 2010 timetable.

Ewan

 

[CarterUSM]

There's some truth in what Rail Britain posted, but I don't think he actually understands what's happening. This has all be posted to scot-rail previously, but to summarise:

There's currently one complete 158 diagram on the Caledonian Express, plus a few odd workings as part of longer diagrams. Most services on the Shotts route are currently 156s. May 2010 158 SX diagrams can be found here: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Diagrams:Class+158+SX

From December 2010, the Shotts route will be solely operated by 156s. Glasgow to Whifflet and Motherwell to Cumbernauld will be operated by 158s. As part of this transfer, one or two Whifflet workings have been covered by a 158 to help with crew training and familiarisation.

As for Glasgow to Cumbernauld/Falkirk Grahamston, should be 158s in the current timetable and 158s in the December 2010 timetable.

Ewan

Thanks MacCookie, i haven't logged into Scot-Rail for a while, great site by the way.

 

[route101]

Shame that the Shotts is going to all 156, the fast Shotts should be 158s and the slows 156 . Why the 158s on the Whifflets ? Any need?

The 156 seating is way more comfortable than the 158 seating . Its too upright .

 

[MacCookie]

Shame that the Shotts is going to all 156, the fast Shotts should be 158s and the slows 156 .

156s already work some of the fasts though. And I doubt that you can make use of the extra speed for various reasons.

Why the 158s on the Whifflets ? Any need?

A handful of 158s are being transferred to Glasgow to work Glasgow -
Whifflet and Motherwell - Cumbernauld. These are self contained
diagrams, so it means that the units won't stray elsewhere in the West
of Scotland (meaning that the number of guards and drivers needing
trained can be minimised). This will release several 156s to
strengthen other services out of Central.

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/message/230856

Ewan

 

[sprinterguy]

We have plenty Pacers which have nice big windows and can cope with low speeds - sure we can't tempt you? I'd happily put comfortable "coach" seats in them, if you don't want the benches.

158s on the Far North is just another example on a long list of "stock that shouldn't be used on a route, whilst other routes elsewhere struggle to cope with other stock"...

The Scottish scenic lines; the West Highland and North Highland routes; are quite lengthy affairs that are really only suitable for class 156 Super Sprinters: Even in England, I don’t think Pacers were originally deployed on scenic routes of that length: The Scottish Highland lines are more akin to the likes of the Cambrian line, which received Sprinters from the start, than the routes like the Whitby line, Hope Valley line and Penistone line that Pacers were first introduced over.

Introducing 158s on the North Highland lines was a move by Scotrail to upgrade the service by introducing slightly newer trains of a higher specification onto the routes when they had been made spare by the introduction of 170s to their former stamping grounds, to which they were considerably better suited, such as Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness. I can see the logic in this decision, but at the time the 156s were replaced by 158s on these routes I thought it was madness. Having since travelled on the Kyle line on the 158s though the decision makes sense: The North Highland lines don’t seem to hold quite the same level of tourist interest as the West Highland (Although the Kyle line is a very close competitor scenically), so introducing (arguably) better quality trains with smaller windows is logical enough. Scotrail would surely prefer to use them than lose them.

 

[me123]

Shame that the Shotts is going to all 156, the fast Shotts should be 158s and the slows 156 . Why the 158s on the Whifflets ? Any need?

The 156 seating is way more comfortable than the 158 seating . Its too upright .

The Shotts diagrams generally have trains going slow in one direction and back as a fast train. See here; Diagram CK275 is a very good example of this. So, without overhauling the timetable, you wouldn't be able to simply say "158s on fasts, 156s on slows".

I think deploying the 158s on Shotts services would be better than Whifflet services. It just makes a lot more sense, and we won't have people accusing us of stealing all the good units for rather silly services! (Yes, I'm looking at you tbtc!) 156s do the Whifflet runs very well in my experience, and there's no need whatsoever for the 158s, whereas the (arguably) more comfortable/modern 158s would be better suited (IMO) to the higher profile Shotts services. It may need the diagrams to be totally changed in order to allow this, but I think it's the best overall solution that provides the most effective use of the trains.

 

[CarterUSM]

I may be a cynic, but Network Rail have been making strong complaints about effluent being flushed onto the track at the Whifflet basin for years, and was IIRC was the main reason for the ECS stopped
being turned at Mossend yard after a shunter slipped on a g.i joe one day! It is a slim possibility, but perhaps it has been a little influence on putting 158's on to Whifflets? They don't have get off the mark i've noticed too, seen even faster pulling away than a 156.

 

[tbtc]

I think deploying the 158s on Shotts services would be better than Whifflet services. It just makes a lot more sense, and we won't have people accusing us of stealing all the good units for rather silly services! (Yes, I'm looking at you tbtc!)

Guilty!

I don't suppose either line involves scheduled running at over 75mph, so there's no real *need* for one unit type over the other, but (especially with the "semi fast" service attracting people from SW Scotland to change to the Shotts service at Central) there are going to be more people doing longer journeys on the Shotts service than the Whifflet one.

As we've said before, some 150s could well have been kept for routes like these, but hindsight is another story...

 

[route101]

When ive been on the 15xx Glasgow Central to Edinburgh fast service its always been a 156 . The 1415 is a 158. Shame that 158s are coming off this route .

 

[Bittern]

Before, I had no intention of doing the Shotts route, but then the 158 limited stops were introduced, I elected to do the route twice now, both on 158s. I agree that 158s are far more suited for this service and the 156s are better off elsewhere. How many units does it take to operate the Shotts line these days?

Oh, and is there really much point in changing the Cumbernauld shuttle from a 156 to a 158? That's as bad as having a 170 on the Maryhill Line.

 

[route101]

the fast shotts make good connections from glasgow central like east kilbride . Saving time rather than walking to queen st . A bonus too is the line is more interesting.