West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

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seagull

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Let’s not beat about the bush, if you got a taxi from HH you could claim delay repay, receive it, and in 2 years time you could be handed a 6 months suspended sentence for fraud and lose your career and home. That is today’s railway.

I thought I'd stumbled across the antirailforums.co.uk site here. Don't let me interrupt.
 
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Bevan Price

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Why?

The general public (and most posters on these boards, despite what they think) aren't operational experts, so why should technical operational decisions be subject to public scrutiny by armchair experts?
Whilst the vast majority of rail staff are decent, hard working, helpful people, sadly a small minority are people who couldn't run the proverbial "p**s up in a brewery", damage the reputation of the railway, and should never have been allowed to get into positions of influence/authority/management.

What sort of person would terminate a train at somewhere like Hemel Hemstead, a station over a mile from the town centre, at a time the station was likely to be unstaffed, when it could have reached Watford Junction in another 6-7 minutes?????
If the driver had then reached "maximum working hours", he/she could have returned north as a passenger on the next available service.
 

A0wen

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Whilst the vast majority of rail staff are decent, hard working, helpful people, sadly a small minority are people who couldn't run the proverbial "p**s up in a brewery", damage the reputation of the railway, and should never have been allowed to get into positions of influence/authority/management.

What sort of person would terminate a train at somewhere like Hemel Hemstead, a station over a mile from the town centre, at a time the station was likely to be unstaffed, when it could have reached Watford Junction in another 6-7 minutes?????
If the driver had then reached "maximum working hours", he/she could have returned north as a passenger on the next available service.

Could it be there was an available path to return north along with easier turnaround at Hemel. which may not have been the case at Watford ? There were following trains, it may have lead to platform blockage at Watford whilst turning. A cursory glance at Google Earth suggests there are crossovers north of Hemel station, where there aren't at Watford Junc.

Again - are you speaking with practical knowledge or as an 'armchair expert' ? Posters such as @The Planner may be better placed to shed some light as to why Hemel was considered a better turnaround point that Watford Junc.

Hemel's hardly the middle of nowhere - it is a main station, there are, even at that time of night, buses running from the station - there is a bus which leaves Hemel station heading for Watford at 22.49 for example. There are always taxis at the front of the station up to around mid-night, usually to meet the late trains from Euston.
 

43096

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Hemel's hardly the middle of nowhere - it is a main station, there are, even at that time of night, buses running from the station - there is a bus which leaves Hemel station heading for Watford at 22.49 for example. There are always taxis at the front of the station up to around mid-night, usually to meet the late trains from Euston.
It’s such a “main station” that the TOC didn’t bother serving it after 9pm after disruption.
 

A0wen

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It’s such a “main station” that the TOC didn’t bother serving it after 9pm after disruption.

Under normal circumstances it would have been served, the reality is here there were recovery operations in place following a fatal - but if you can't make a distinction between such things, that speaks volumes about you.

Had LNW turfed off the passengers at Cheddington, Tring or at a push Berkhamsted, then I might buy the 'abandoned in the middle of nowhere' line - but not Hemel.
 

Bletchleyite

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Under normal circumstances it would have been served, the reality is here there were recovery operations in place following a fatal - but if you can't make a distinction between such things, that speaks volumes about you.

The railway needs to provide for the people it has stranded. It's unacceptable for them to do otherwise. If it can't transport them it needs to get them in hotels.

While it's doing so it needs to communicate with them.

As to your second point, it isn't acceptable for it to abandon them anywhere. But my experience is that the railway has poor "soft" incident management that relies too much on individuals. It's great at sorting the operation out, but it almost seems to see the "self loading freight", to borrow an airline industry term, as a nuisance.

I would genuinely love to have a go at implementing IT Service Management principles onto this, I think it could make a huge difference.
 

zwk500

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Could it be there was an available path to return north along with easier turnaround at Hemel. which may not have been the case at Watford ? There were following trains, it may have lead to platform blockage at Watford whilst turning. A cursory glance at Google Earth suggests there are crossovers north of Hemel station, where there aren't at Watford Junc.
A train terminating at Watford to head north would need to shunt south of the station first before doing so. If it was being put into the south-facing bay or the St Albans line it could shunt via the Up slow, but if it was going back north it could only shunt via the Up Fast. Not a good option when trying to recover a service.
The Up Slow platform at HH still requires a cross-platform shunt for a northbound departure (the OP hints this is what happened), but on the Up Slow not Up Fast. If GTR were turning the WLL service at Watford that may be an additional factor in choosing to turn at Hemel, so as not to block the inter-regional train (and therefore propagate delay to the Brighton Line). Bourne End jn is not far from HH, but there is not a signalled route wrong-road on the Up Slow to terminate and return towards MK.
If the driver had then reached "maximum working hours", he/she could have returned north as a passenger on the next available service.
If a driver is running out of hours, you've got to find somewhere to put the train he or she was driving before they can ride pass back to their depot, and then source another driver to ride pass out to the train (either that night or the next morning) in order to get it where it should have been.

Fundamentally, turning the train at Hemel is a reasonable operational decision, but having done so the controllers must be aware there are passengers waiting at HH for the next train and organise an SSO (or alternative transport) accordingly. It's almost certainly a mistake not a conspiracy/deliberate decision, but still a total failure on the TOC's part not to do so.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fundamentally, turning the train at Hemel is a reasonable operational decision, but having done so the controllers must be aware there are passengers waiting at HH for the next train and organise an SSO (or alternative transport) accordingly. It's almost certainly a mistake not a conspiracy/deliberate decision, but still a total failure on the TOC's part not to do so.

As I mentioned it's poor incident management - with a load of issues to deal with, and probably tired late in the day, Control will have simply forgotten about them. Not wilful, just they will have got lost in the massive pile of (probably electronic) paperwork about the mess that the railway has ended up in.

Anyone who has watched the documentary about FGW/GWR at Paddington will see that this is all still done very manually, and this is the problem.
 

Domh245

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One point to consider around service recovery - given it was the late evening on a friday, mid-pandemic, before the WCML was shut for engineering works, who exactly were they recovering the service for? Obviously they need to keep an eye on driver/guard working hours, and stabling arrangements, but many of the usual excuses about disrupting current passengers for the later rush-hour passengers doesn't really wash.
 

43096

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Under normal circumstances it would have been served, the reality is here there were recovery operations in place following a fatal - but if you can't make a distinction between such things, that speaks volumes about you.
You come across as very patronising.
Obviously I know of the circumstances as that is the whole point of this thread!:rolleyes:

I just can’t believe - or perhaps I can - that anyone can make excuses for the TOC. As an absolute minimum (and given the incident had been cleared and this was service recovery) there should have been at least one all stations service south from Milton Keynes before end of service.
 

zwk500

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One point to consider around service recovery - given it was the late evening on a friday, mid-pandemic, before the WCML was shut for engineering works, who exactly were they recovering the service for? Obviously they need to keep an eye on driver/guard working hours, and stabling arrangements, but many of the usual excuses about disrupting current passengers for the later rush-hour passengers doesn't really wash.
According to the OP's screenshot, this happened on the 1st May. Many people are enjoying the relaxation of restrictions and even if they weren't, the railway continued to provide a service for Key Workers even under much stricter restrictions on travel, so as @43096 says, to not run one all-stations pickup into London approaching midnight is a massive oversight on the TOC's part.
 

A0wen

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The railway needs to provide for the people it has stranded. It's unacceptable for them to do otherwise. If it can't transport them it needs to get them in hotels.

While it's doing so it needs to communicate with them.

As to your second point, it isn't acceptable for it to abandon them anywhere. But my experience is that the railway has poor "soft" incident management that relies too much on individuals. It's great at sorting the operation out, but it almost seems to see the "self loading freight", to borrow an airline industry term, as a nuisance.

I would genuinely love to have a go at implementing IT Service Management principles onto this, I think it could make a huge difference.

Another idealist - the reality is the *overwhelming* majority were dealt with on Friday night.

We're talking about a small number, delayed due to an operational decision and possibly a cock up over special stopping orders.

You're another one who wants people hung, drawn and quartered for making an honest mistake. Perhaps decline any request to do jury service with that outlook ?
 

RT4038

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Could it be there was an available path to return north along with easier turnaround at Hemel. which may not have been the case at Watford ? There were following trains, it may have lead to platform blockage at Watford whilst turning. A cursory glance at Google Earth suggests there are crossovers north of Hemel station, where there aren't at Watford Junc.

Again - are you speaking with practical knowledge or as an 'armchair expert' ? Posters such as @The Planner may be better placed to shed some light as to why Hemel was considered a better turnaround point that Watford Junc.

Hemel's hardly the middle of nowhere - it is a main station, there are, even at that time of night, buses running from the station - there is a bus which leaves Hemel station heading for Watford at 22.49 for example. There are always taxis at the front of the station up to around mid-night, usually to meet the late trains from Euston.

I think you are trying to defend the indefensible.

The railway clearly got it badly wrong that night, with operational convenience taking precedence over customer safety and convenience.

Passengers should not have been detrained at an unstaffed station, unless it was sure that a following train was going to collect them within a few minutes. If the train crew were going to 'run out of hours' the train should never have been despatched from Milton Keynes, or should have been run through to Euston with the crew put up in a hotel. Customer service before staff convenience.

It was the responsibility of the railway to make arrangements to convey the passengers, and indeed the passengers were told a following train was going to stop to pick them up. But it didn't. Buses and taxis outside the station are a red herring. If they had to be used, railway staff should have directed them so. But there weren't any.

I find your comment about 'armchair experts' quite patronising. I am not a chef but I know when I have bad food. I am not a railwayman, but I know when I see a bad railway.

There are some countries in the world where an incident like this could have resulted in objects thrown on the track, the station buildings set alight, the next train to come probably set alight also, with the staff on board beaten up. No doubt concentrates minds.
 

O L Leigh

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As I mentioned it's poor incident management - with a load of issues to deal with, and probably tired late in the day, Control will have simply forgotten about them. Not wilful, just they will have got lost in the massive pile of (probably electronic) paperwork about the mess that the railway has ended up in.

I think that accusation hinges on precisely what LNWR’s plan had been, the detail of which we will not know unless it is shared with @allotments.

There has been some suggestion that a bus may have been arranged, in which case the passengers had not been forgotten, but that the arrangements had not been explained in sufficient detail for the passengers to know what was meant to happen next. If a bus had been arranged but everyone was inside the station, that bus would simply have come and then gone again and no-one stranded would have been any the wiser.

But until we know exactly what happened from both sides of this incident we cannot meaningfully make any accusations. It’s possible that in the heat of recovering the service the passengers at Hemel Hempstead were overlooked, or it could just have been a miscommunication between the controller and the TM about precisely what was meant to happen, thereby resulting in the passengers being given the wrong instructions. At the moment it does look more like the former because we have the account of one of the passengers involved, but we are still not yet in possession of all the facts.
 

allotments

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A train terminating at Watford to head north would need to shunt south of the station first before doing so. If it was being put into the south-facing bay or the St Albans line it could shunt via the Up slow, but if it was going back north it could only shunt via the Up Fast. Not a good option when trying to recover a service.
The Up Slow platform at HH still requires a cross-platform shunt for a northbound departure (the OP hints this is what happened), but on the Up Slow not Up Fast. If GTR were turning the WLL service at Watford that may be an additional factor in choosing to turn at Hemel, so as not to block the inter-regional train (and therefore propagate delay to the Brighton Line). Bourne End jn is not far from HH, but there is not a signalled route wrong-road on the Up Slow to terminate and return towards MK.

If a driver is running out of hours, you've got to find somewhere to put the train he or she was driving before they can ride pass back to their depot, and then source another driver to ride pass out to the train (either that night or the next morning) in order to get it where it should have been.

Fundamentally, turning the train at Hemel is a reasonable operational decision, but having done so the controllers must be aware there are passengers waiting at HH for the next train and organise an SSO (or alternative transport) accordingly. It's almost certainly a mistake not a conspiracy/deliberate decision, but still a total failure on the TOC's part not to do so.
I really lappreciate the detail ~ thanks

I'd like equivalent honesty in the awaited response from LNWR

...and want to know what training and procedural changes have been put in place to prevent recurrence

Surely some kind of alert flag should be set on the operational map when passengers are detrained and require rescue
 

A0wen

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I think you are trying to defend the indefensible.

The railway clearly got it badly wrong that night, with operational convenience taking precedence over customer safety and convenience.

Passengers should not have been detrained at an unstaffed station, unless it was sure that a following train was going to collect them within a few minutes. If the train crew were going to 'run out of hours' the train should never have been despatched from Milton Keynes, or should have been run through to Euston with the crew put up in a hotel. Customer service before staff convenience.

It was the responsibility of the railway to make arrangements to convey the passengers, and indeed the passengers were told a following train was going to stop to pick them up. But it didn't. Buses and taxis outside the station are a red herring. If they had to be used, railway staff should have directed them so. But there weren't any.

I find your comment about 'armchair experts' quite patronising. I am not a chef but I know when I have bad food. I am not a railwayman, but I know when I see a bad railway.

There are some countries in the world where an incident like this could have resulted in objects thrown on the track, the station buildings set alight, the next train to come probably set alight also, with the staff on board beaten up. No doubt concentrates minds.

Not at all - there is, and always has been, a balance between customer service and operational requirement.

The decision to de-train at Hemel was perfectly reasonable - it's a main station, not some isolated middle of nowhere location.

The mistake would appear to be failure to then ensure a subsequent train stopped - cock up rather than conspiracy.

The point about 'armchair experts' is the fact that the impression given is this stuff is 'all really easy' - when it isn't. There are a multitude of factors to be considered - and its about balancing those factors. Your view of a 'bad railway' is not necessarily correct - unless you can demonstrate statistics or some measurable criteria to underpin that. In the absence of such statistics or criteria (and they have to be reasonable criteria, so no 100%, 100% of the time stuff) then it's opinion and conjecture at best.

As for your final line, I'll treat that with the disregard it deserves.
 

allotments

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According to the OP's screenshot, this happened on the 1st May. Many people are enjoying the relaxation of restrictions and even if they weren't, the railway continued to provide a service for Key Workers even under much stricter restrictions on travel, so as @43096 says, to not run one all-stations pickup into London approaching midnight is a massive oversight on the TOC's part.
Friday night 30 April thru small hours 1 May
 

robbeech

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Could it be there was an available path to return north along with easier turnaround at Hemel. which may not have been the case at Watford ? There were following trains, it may have lead to platform blockage at Watford whilst turning. A cursory glance at Google Earth suggests there are crossovers north of Hemel station, where there aren't at Watford Junc.

Again - are you speaking with practical knowledge or as an 'armchair expert' ? Posters such as @The Planner may be better placed to shed some light as to why Hemel was considered a better turnaround point that Watford Junc.

Hemel's hardly the middle of nowhere - it is a main station, there are, even at that time of night, buses running from the station - there is a bus which leaves Hemel station heading for Watford at 22.49 for example. There are always taxis at the front of the station up to around mid-night, usually to meet the late trains from Euston.
I agree that it's of little to no use for people with only the knowledge google earth and a map of the railway gives them to suggest what the operator and signaller should have achieved here. However, you've overlooked (no doubt deliberately) the point people are making yet again when you (and others) mention alternative transport. The initial question is why SHOULD people seek alternative transport? But moor importantly why WOULD they when they have been promised on more than one occasion that a train will call only to be let down on more than one occasion?
The fact that you are suggesting passengers should ignore what the railway says, and not trust them, and make their own alternative arrangements from an unknown location, at their own costs actually translates to telling passengers that they cannot trust the railway. The fact that you try to turn this around and blame the passengers for trusting the railway in the first place says everything it needs to say about how the appalling reputation of the railway comes to be.


Under normal circumstances it would have been served, the reality is here there were recovery operations in place following a fatal - but if you can't make a distinction between such things, that speaks volumes about you.

Had LNW turfed off the passengers at Cheddington, Tring or at a push Berkhamsted, then I might buy the 'abandoned in the middle of nowhere' line - but not Hemel.
How long do you think it is acceptable to blame the tragic incident earlier in the day for the unsurpassable incompetence shown by the railway here? An hour? 3 hours? until the end of the day? Passengers are not complaining about the fatality, passengers are complaining about lack of communication and poor treatment of them several hours afterwards when trains were running and trying to recover. To use the fatality as an excuse for staff chucking people off at a random location and leaving them there for hours, being lied to several times is monumentally disrespectful to the passengers, to the family of the deceased and to the staff members involved directly in the incident.
 

A0wen

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I really lappreciate the detail ~ thanks

I'd like equivalent honesty in the awaited response from LNWR

...and want to know what training and procedural changes have been put in place to prevent recurrence

Surely some kind of alert flag should be set on the operational map when passengers are detrained and require rescue

BIB - sorry, but that is none of your business and I believe LNW will be quite right to ignore such demands.

Operational decisions are those made by any company (not just rail operators) on a day to day basis - they are under no obligation to provide that kind of detail publicly and nor should they (and I say this having worked for 20 + years in commercial and retail companies).
 

Bletchleyite

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Another idealist - the reality is the *overwhelming* majority were dealt with on Friday night.

We're talking about a small number, delayed due to an operational decision and possibly a cock up over special stopping orders.

You're another one who wants people hung, drawn and quartered for making an honest mistake. Perhaps decline any request to do jury service with that outlook ?

No, what I think is that the railway should accept that it was a mistake, and investigate their processes and update them so it is less likely to happen again.

The railway treats safety issues very seriously. If it treated customer service failings even half as seriously, and did the appropriate root cause analysis, it would be a brilliant system to use.
 

Wolfie

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BIB - sorry, but that is none of your business and I believe LNW will be quite right to ignore such demands.

Operational decisions are those made by any company (not just rail operators) on a day to day basis - they are under no obligation to provide that kind of detail publicly and nor should they (and I say this having worked for 20 + years in commercial and retail companies).
They have two choices. They do so willingly or those passengers involved talk to their MPs and, if West Midlands based, their local elected representatives and the politicians will then seek to make them do so...
 

Bletchleyite

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BIB - sorry, but that is none of your business and I believe LNW will be quite right to ignore such demands.

Operational decisions are those made by any company (not just rail operators) on a day to day basis - they are under no obligation to provide that kind of detail publicly and nor should they (and I say this having worked for 20 + years in commercial and retail companies).

A company that cares about its customers will, at a high level, respond to complaints with a high-level explanation of the actions taken to resolve it and to avoid a recurrence, or an honest but again high-level explanation of why it isn't feasible to solve the issue and how the passenger can deal with it avoiding excessive detriment if it does arise again, e.g. "take a taxi and send us the bill". Clearly this is limited by e.g. confidentiality (if you're talking about staff disciplinaries) but that isn't applicable to this case. Clearly nobody needs to be disciplined over this - it requires a procedural change.

It seems that you spent 20+ years working for organisations which do not care about their customers.
 

Domh245

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According to the OP's screenshot, this happened on the 1st May. Many people are enjoying the relaxation of restrictions and even if they weren't, the railway continued to provide a service for Key Workers even under much stricter restrictions on travel, so as @43096 says, to not run one all-stations pickup into London approaching midnight is a massive oversight on the TOC's part.

My point is more that at the end of the day, especially when there's going to be significantly reduced loadings (especially on last trains with pretty much all nightlife closed) - slavishly "recovering the service" seems to suggest a railway that runs for it's own benefit and sees passengers as a nuisance. When it's that late in the day, I would have thought the approach would be along the lines of "make sure no staff go out of hours, the rolling stock gets to where it's supposed to go, and we'll try again tomorrow". Obviously that's a gross oversimplification and no doubt staff and rolling stock will have been what was driving decision making, especially in the context of the extended closure and handing it over for works to start on time, etc, but skipping stops to minimise delay into Euston, to try and get the last NB services out on time (for example - though again in the context of a weekend closure that's obviously more important) doesn't sit well.
 

43066

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I'm sure you realise, but it's this flippant approach from you, on a serious issue, that singles you out as one of the small minority of 'bad apple' rail staff.
No doubt you'll just keep digging that hole for yourself.

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll pay it as much attention as it deserves.

Sometimes a sense of humour is necessary in life, both on the railway and on here.

There’s no “having a little more faith” because the result of that leaves people in a dangerous situation.

If I was asked to name two categories of passenger the railway could do without it would be the perpetually annoyed “nothing is ever good enough”, and those who think being de trained at a major station in the south east of England is “dangerous”.

National Express is a good alternative, chaps.

There are some countries in the world where an incident like this could have resulted in objects thrown on the track, the station buildings set alight, the next train to come probably set alight also, with the staff on board beaten up. No doubt concentrates minds.

Are the staff also allowed to beat up the passengers? I might just have to emigrate. :D
 

Bletchleyite

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If I was asked to name two categories of passenger the railway could do without it would be the perpetually annoyed “nothing is ever good enough”, and those who think being de trained at a major station in the south east of England is “dangerous”.

It's clearly not dangerous, but it absolutely is appalling customer service to detrain people without a plan for what to do with them and communicating that to them.
 

O L Leigh

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To use the fatality as an excuse for staff chucking people off at a random location and leaving them there for hours, being lied to several times is monumentally disrespectful to the passengers, to the family of the deceased and to the staff members involved directly in the incident.

Bingo!! The £25 is mine.

I'm sorry, but that's laying it on with a trowel.

It's clearly not dangerous, but it absolutely is appalling customer service to detrain people without a plan for what to do with them and communicating that to them.

...assuming that this is indeed what happened. LNWR's response is awaited which may cast a different light on the matter.
 

A0wen

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A company that cares about its customers will, at a high level, respond to complaints with a high-level explanation of the actions taken to resolve it and to avoid a recurrence, or an honest but again high-level explanation of why it isn't feasible to solve the issue and how the passenger can deal with it avoiding excessive detriment if it does arise again, e.g. "take a taxi and send us the bill". Clearly this is limited by e.g. confidentiality (if you're talking about staff disciplinaries) but that isn't applicable to this case. Clearly nobody needs to be disciplined over this - it requires a procedural change.

It seems that you spent 20+ years working for organisations which do not care about their customers.

Once again - a challenge - what is your area of expertise or competence to make such statements ?

Commercial or operational information won't be shared - nor should it be. The high level answer will simply be along the lines of 'we will ensure lessons are learned and there is not a recurrence' - it won't go into detail of training, briefings or any other such details.

Sorry, you may think this is "poor customer service", but I suspect that's driven from a position of never having worked in a customer facing commercial or customer service role. Nor having any appreciation of commercial or operations within a large organisation.

Quite rightly the only time a company has to divulge such information is when a regulator or legal body comes knocking on the door - because at that point there may be criminal proceedings or similar. But otherwise there is no justification, however much you might like to pretend or believe there is.
 

robbeech

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The decision to de-train at Hemel was perfectly reasonable - it's a main station, not some isolated middle of nowhere location.
A main station? It was unstaffed. It is over a mile walk to the town centre.
BIB - sorry, but that is none of your business and I believe LNW will be quite right to ignore such demands.

Operational decisions are those made by any company (not just rail operators) on a day to day basis - they are under no obligation to provide that kind of detail publicly and nor should they (and I say this having worked for 20 + years in commercial and retail companies).
And here is the problem. they don't need to explain themselves, so they won't. And if they don't want to do anything about it, they won't, and we will just have this exact same discussion next time.

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll pay it as much attention as it deserves.

Sometimes a sense of humour is necessary in life, both on the railway and on here.



If I was asked to name two categories of passenger the railway could do without it would be the perpetually annoyed “nothing is ever good enough”, and those who think being de trained at a major station in the south east of England is “dangerous”.

National Express is a good alternative, chaps.



Are the staff also allowed to beat up the passengers? I might just have to emigrate. :D
Welcome to the Railway.


Bingo!! The £25 is mine.

I'm sorry, but that's laying it on with a trowel.
It's absolutely what people are doing here. I'm not suggesting the staff involved used it as an excuse but people here have essentially gone down that route.

As for laying it on with a trowel, some anti passenger members here appear to be laying the "passenger scum" line on with a shovel.


I agree with whoever said this thread is unlikely to go much further without more information from the operator. It's essentially now just disgruntled passengers wanting assurance that the railway will hold up their side of the contract and some frankly appalling railway employees displaying some of the worst attitude i've witnessed which is for all intents and purposes on a public forum, the voice of the railway. The already appalling reputation of the railway has fallen even further in 8 pages of circles (guilty) but at least more people will be able to see how much trust we SHOULD have, and at least people might see the uphill battle i mentioned earlier that the majority of the excellent staff have, overcoming this embedded attitude.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Marston Vale mafia"
Once again - a challenge - what is your area of expertise or competence to make such statements ?

I'm a customer who knows what he likes to feel respected by a business. An honest and transparent business is one that respects its customers. A business that obfuscates and hides things is a business that does not respect its customers.

A business that totally disregards that is a business deserving to fail. The railway only manages to get away with it because it receives subsidy.
 

robbeech

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Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
3,417
Commercial or operational information won't be shared - nor should it be. The high level answer will simply be along the lines of 'we will ensure lessons are learned and there is not a recurrence' - it won't go into detail of training, briefings or any other such details.
It'll go in to lots of detail about the training, briefings and ALL other details, everything that is done about these incidents will be documented The page will be titled "THIS PAGE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK"
 
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