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What’s going on with Thameslink?

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Silver Cobra

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Thameslink Control didn't paint themselves in a good light yet again this afternoon.

Following the disruption caused by the signal failure at East Croydon, I caught the late-running 9S42 Brighton-Cambridge service at Farringdon with the intention of changing at Hitchin for the following delayed Peterborough service (9J50) to Arlesey (I opted to do this rather than just wait for 9J50 at Farringdon in case it was either terminated before reaching Arlesey or skip-stopped from Finsbury Park). Approaching Finsbury Park the driver announced that he had been informed by Control that after Finsbury Park he would be running non-stop to Cambridge, so everyone wanting the intermediate stations needed to alight at Finsbury Park. Once we got into the station, while everyone who didn't want Cambridge was trying to alight, a large number of passengers were trying to board, as the platform screens showed the train would still be calling at Stevenage and Royston. So cue mass confusion amongst passengers not knowing what exactly where the train would be stopping at or what information to trust. It got to the point where both the driver and another member of Thameslink staff had to ask the platform staff to check with Control where the train would actually be stopping, with Control confirming that it would indeed be stopping at Stevenage and Royston en-route to Cambridge, so contrary to what they originally told the driver prior to us arriving into Finsbury Park. Overall this added around another 10 minutes delay to the service.

I appreciate that managing disruption is not an easy task at all, but situations like this really don't help when the driver is being told one thing yet the passenger information says something completely different. One lucky element to this situation is that the platform staff double-checked with Control before removing a disabled passenger in a wheelchair off the train (this passenger was heading to Royston, so the staff had the ramp ready to remove them off the train), as that would have caused much worse delays.
 
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philjo

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1631 departure from st Pancras to Cambridge and the 1646 st Pancras to Peterborough both cancelled today.
I was on the 1639 Kings Cross to a kings Lynn service which called additionally at Finsbury Park and Stevenage. Lots of people standing in the coach I was in towards the front of the train so must have been worse further back judging by the number who alighted at Stevenage.

This morning the 0654 Cambridge to Brighton service arrived at Finsbury Park when the driver announced that the next driver due to take over was delayed so the train would remain at Finsbury Park for 22 minutes.
I bailed onto the arriving Moorgate service and then Victoria Line from Highbury and Islington. I was heading to the Victoria area anyway ( the original plan was to change at BLackfriars) I suspect there were other services delayed due to the Brighton train blocking platform 2.
 

Fred26

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Thameslink Control didn't paint themselves in a good light yet again this afternoon.

Following the disruption caused by the signal failure at East Croydon, I caught the late-running 9S42 Brighton-Cambridge service at Farringdon with the intention of changing at Hitchin for the following delayed Peterborough service (9J50) to Arlesey (I opted to do this rather than just wait for 9J50 at Farringdon in case it was either terminated before reaching Arlesey or skip-stopped from Finsbury Park). Approaching Finsbury Park the driver announced that he had been informed by Control that after Finsbury Park he would be running non-stop to Cambridge, so everyone wanting the intermediate stations needed to alight at Finsbury Park. Once we got into the station, while everyone who didn't want Cambridge was trying to alight, a large number of passengers were trying to board, as the platform screens showed the train would still be calling at Stevenage and Royston. So cue mass confusion amongst passengers not knowing what exactly where the train would be stopping at or what information to trust. It got to the point where both the driver and another member of Thameslink staff had to ask the platform staff to check with Control where the train would actually be stopping, with Control confirming that it would indeed be stopping at Stevenage and Royston en-route to Cambridge, so contrary to what they originally told the driver prior to us arriving into Finsbury Park. Overall this added around another 10 minutes delay to the service.

I appreciate that managing disruption is not an easy task at all, but situations like this really don't help when the driver is being told one thing yet the passenger information says something completely different. One lucky element to this situation is that the platform staff double-checked with Control before removing a disabled passenger in a wheelchair off the train (this passenger was heading to Royston, so the staff had the ramp ready to remove them off the train), as that would have caused much worse delays.

The train was due to run non-stop, but both Stevenage and Royston had wheelchair passengers to assist, so control changed their mind.
It was all very rushed. The non-stopping was only announced to staff after the train left St Pancras, before the aforementioned assists were discussed.
Neither the driver nor the screens were wrong, as such, but the information the driver had was out of date.
 

Horizon22

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The train was due to run non-stop, but both Stevenage and Royston had wheelchair passengers to assist, so control changed their mind.
It was all very rushed. The non-stopping was only announced to staff after the train left St Pancras, before the aforementioned assists were discussed.
Neither the driver nor the screens were wrong, as such, but the information the driver had was out of date.

Normally you eliminate such a situation by either a GSMR to the driver to contact control when best appropriate or someone on the stations ready to pass the message to the driver at the front.

Unfortunately of course if the driver has already made announcements to the contrary then they can only correct once they have the new info, which can indeed cause a bit of communication if it’s at the wrong time (such as passengers having already alighted).
 

Minstral25

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At Redhill a couple of weeks ago there was an announcement that the train I was boarding would be making additional stops at Merstham and Coulsdon South but evidently nobody told the driver because it ran non stop to Purley!

The service patterns and timings change daily to counter whatever failure had occurred so no wonder there is a lot of confusion
 

Nicholas Lewis

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When the timetable is supposed to be turn up and go, which it is along Redhill stations, then you tend not to check first. I do get that is a risk but most passengers are used to a train every 10-20 minutes often are not targeting a specific train.
Id hardly describe the Redhill line stations as turn up and go service except maybe Redhill.
 

bramling

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Is there? Where are the calls for SE to take over? I’d like to have my say as a regular user of the line!

From what I’m hearing the issues with reliability on GN are now being raised with the local MP (s). Trouble is, there’s a core of people who are more than happy to have the train service disrupted, as it gives them the excuse to work from home, or more accurately not bother even attempting to come to work for the day.

The likes of Shapps, or whatever his name is this week, are of course too busy playing games with Sadiq Khan to even notice the problems their pet Thameslink programme continues to cause.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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From what I’m hearing the issues with reliability on GN are now being raised with the local MP (s). Trouble is, there’s a core of people who are more than happy to have the train service disrupted, as it gives them the excuse to work from home, or more accurately not bother even attempting to come to work for the day.

The likes of Shapps, or whatever his name is this week, are of course too busy playing games with Sadiq Khan to even notice the problems their pet Thameslink programme continues to cause.
Shapps is a GN MP so he should be in receipt of few complaints but won't bother him although perhaps when hes no longer SoS on a few weeks he will take the issue up with the new SoS!
 

XAM2175

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Trouble is, there’s a core of people who are more than happy to have the train service disrupted, as it gives them the excuse to work from home, or more accurately not bother even attempting to come to work for the day.
... are they actively advocating for the problem to be left unresolved?
 

Edsmith

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Is there? Where are the calls for SE to take over? I’d like to have my say as a regular user of the line!
There have been calls for that to happen for a while, that's not to say it's likely to happen. What benefits does Thameslink bring to the Medway Towns? Southeastern could run exactly the same service as far as Charlton and for St Pancras the high speed service is much quicker.
 

Failed Unit

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Shapps is a GN MP so he should be in receipt of few complaints but won't bother him although perhaps when hes no longer SoS on a few weeks he will take the issue up with the new SoS!
I have actually written to him. Quoting some of his own statements before he came transport secretary about they can’t be allowed to continue like this (why did he extend the contract)

But I can see why the Peterborough line is so hacked off. Last night 2 successive cancelled trains because of lack of crew. What I don’t know is did it have crew say north of Finsbury Park but no stock as it was stuck in the south. I am sure the sole GN London. kX - Peterborough service was cosy.

At WGC we can normally find something to get us in. (Which is probably why the MP doesn’t care). Even on Saturday we get extra stops which I assume are to get crew to the depot. But the rest of the stations get some very long gaps. I know people from Hatfield driving to St Albans now for a chance of travelling on Saturday.
 

Minstral25

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Id hardly describe the Redhill line stations as turn up and go service except maybe Redhill.
Train towards East Croydon every 15 minutes at Horley, Merstham and Coulsdon South - who needs to check times when you know there will be a train shortly after you arrive at station. Yes, Redhill every 10 minutes is even better - Purley currently even better but will be same from September.

Earlswood and Salfords every 30 minutes I agree is not good enough - time to add stops on Peterborough to Horsham services to solve that perhaps.
 

Skimble19

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Earlswood and Salfords every 30 minutes I agree is not good enough - time to add stops on Peterborough to Horsham services to solve that perhaps.
Earlswood and Salfords both have considerably lower passenger numbers than the stations between Arlesey and Peterborough, and they only get a service every 30 minutes (and only hourly on Sundays) excluding 3 peak extras at the larger stations.. I can’t see those two stations being added to the Peterborough services. In reality, it wouldn’t help them anyway based on the reliability of that route!
 

Dave91131

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Numerous cancellations a little earlier today on the Peterborough - Horsham circuit once again. Nothing to see here though, it's the norm.
 

WizCastro197

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Train towards East Croydon every 15 minutes at Horley, Merstham and Coulsdon South - who needs to check times when you know there will be a train shortly after you arrive at station. Yes, Redhill every 10 minutes is even better - Purley currently even better but will be same from September.

Earlswood and Salfords every 30 minutes I agree is not good enough - time to add stops on Peterborough to Horsham services to solve that perhaps.
What's The point in adding more services it just adds time to trains. If passengers travelling from Earlswood want to get to Peterborough (which most dont since they go to Redhill) can just change a ECR, London Bridge, Blackfriars, Farringdon or St Pancras.
Coming from a person that is closer to Earlswood than Redhill its just wouldn't be feasible since practically no one gets on or off at Earlswood. (probably between 5-10 in peak and 1 off
Earlswood and Salfords both have considerably lower passenger numbers than the stations between Arlesey and Peterborough, and they only get a service every 30 minutes (and only hourly on Sundays) excluding 3 peak extras at the larger stations.. I can’t see those two stations being added to the Peterborough services. In reality, it wouldn’t help them anyway based on the reliability of that route!
Quite right.
 

JonathanH

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Coming from a person that is closer to Earlswood than Redhill its just wouldn't be feasible since practically no one gets on or off at Earlswood. (probably between 5-10 in peak and 1 off
I guess the suggestion is that if all trains on the Redhill corridor stopped at all the stations between Purley and Gatwick Airport, people would have more confidence in using the smaller stations rather than Redhill, spreading the load and meaning fewer people choose to drive to Redhill for the fastest connections and most frequent service. It would also mean that all stations have a service to Norwood Junction / Crawley / Horsham etc and all the journeys between stations are possible without changing.
 

Mojo

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I 100% disagree. If one has a set arrival time, then for me it is even more important that I check how things are running before departing. If my preferred train is late or cancelled, I get going earlier. It’s not just for trains either; when using the roads I always check the traffic well before I leave.
The problem being is that these systems are only as reliable as the data being put into them, and the rail industry combined together doesn’t make it easy for people to make alternative options.

Take this morning, a colleague of mine was going to catch the 04.54 TLRailUK service from Harlington to St Pancras, which was cancelled, as was the subsequent 05.26 train. As there were no other trains to get him in on time, he got in the car to drive to Bedford station, where he would have to pay to park at his own expense with no way of claiming back this extra cost.

About halfhour after he first checked, an additional train popped up on the system, an extension of the 05.39 which usually starts at Luton, and was due at 05.20.

The only reason he checked is because a few times before for various trains these extra trains have popped up at last minute and the subsequent delay repay claims have been rejected, and he has been left doubly out of pocket after having paid to park at Bedford.
 

JB_B

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... Trouble is, there’s a core of people who are more than happy to have the train service disrupted, as it gives them the excuse to work from home, or more accurately not bother even attempting to come to work for the day...

I initially assumed this was a joke but, just in case it isn't, are you talking about people working in a particular industry or just in general? Can you provide any evidence?
 

WizCastro197

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I guess the suggestion is that if all trains on the Redhill corridor stopped at all the stations between Purley and Gatwick Airport, people would have more confidence in using the smaller stations rather than Redhill, spreading the load and meaning fewer people choose to drive to Redhill for the fastest connections and most frequent service. It would also mean that all stations have a service to Norwood Junction / Crawley / Horsham etc and all the journeys between stations are possible without changing.
I understand. But The most likely outcome is that this will never happen? Like I said there is no point no one really boards at Earlswood maybe at Salfords and if people wanted to get from Earlswood to Horsham/Crawley they would rather drive? Fuel now is expensive as well but I can make several journeys of the same length and same destination for the same price to a train ticket which I can only make a couple? That last sentence was really difficult to word! :D
 
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Bald Rick

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Train towards East Croydon every 15 minutes at Horley, Merstham and Coulsdon South - who needs to check times when you know there will be a train shortly after you arrive at station.

I do! I don’t want to arrive at a station to see a train leave and waste 14’30” of my time waiting for the next one. I always check times (and how they are running).
 

WizCastro197

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I do! I don’t want to arrive at a station to see a train leave and waste 14’30” of my time waiting for the next one. I always check times (and how they are running).
Yes I agree. I always check beforehand especially in these circumstances where I absolutely have to use Thameslink so I can aim for a good arrival time and get on the train with the minimum waiting time. Mostly NRE

But It doesn't just have to be ECR what happens if I wanted to go to Peterborough and the next train is Bedford and I wasn’t willing to change (which would probably add the same amount of time as waiting onto my journey) then I would have to wait a lot longer than just 15 minutes if I arrive at inconvenient time?

If I had somewhere to be that was important or a booked a particular time slot of course I would check, wouldn't want to turn up at an inconvenient time and have to wait 15-30 minutes and risk it?
 
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Bald Rick

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The problem being is that these systems are only as reliable as the data being put into them, and the rail industry combined together doesn’t make it easy for people to make alternative options.

Take this morning, a colleague of mine was going to catch the 04.54 TLRailUK service from Harlington to St Pancras, which was cancelled, as was the subsequent 05.26 train. As there were no other trains to get him in on time, he got in the car to drive to Bedford station, where he would have to pay to park at his own expense with no way of claiming back this extra cost.

About halfhour after he first checked, an additional train popped up on the system, an extension of the 05.39 which usually starts at Luton, and was due at 05.20.

The only reason he checked is because a few times before for various trains these extra trains have popped up at last minute and the subsequent delay repay claims have been rejected, and he has been left doubly out of pocket after having paid to park at Bedford.

I suppose it helps to have worked in control long enough to be able to anticipate what they will do ;)
 

frediculous

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Today the train before mine was cancelled in the morning so it was much busier on the Peterborough route. Coming home, the Welwyn train cancelled from Denmark Hill, and also the Peterborough one cancelled too.

So far that makes 4 delay repay claims on the 3 days I've travelled this week. Who knows what will happen tomorrow
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I understand. But The most likely outcome is that this will never happen? Like I said there is no point no one really boards at Earlswood maybe at Salfords and if people wanted to get from Earlswood to Horsham/Crawley they would rather drive? Fuel now is expensive as well but I can make several journeys of the same length and same destination for the same price to a train ticket which I can only make a couple? That last sentence was really difficult to word! :D
A dam site more people use Earlswood than Salfords. Just got off a train there along with c20 other people miles less than Redhill so will only ever warrant half hourly but the trains are used throughout the day mainly towards London till early afternoon.
 

Jimini

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A dam site more people use Earlswood than Salfords. Just got off a train there along with c20 other people miles less than Redhill so will only ever warrant half hourly but the trains are used throughout the day mainly towards London till early afternoon.

Ruchita in Earlswood is always worth a visit, so makes sense :)
 

Bikeman78

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Of course, this is exactly what one expects with Thameslink. Those of use who had the pleasure of using both Thaneslink and non-Thameslink services in the 90s had first-hand experience of the performance difference between the two. With Thameslink you have more chance of disruption in the first place, and a significantly worse recovery when it does happen. On the GN side things are worse now because many of the residual GN-only services have been pulled from the timetable, so there aren’t even those to be able to rely on.
I'm amazed that Thameslink runs as well as it does. If one of the four exits from the core is blocked, it's very easy to bring the whole thing to a standstill. E.g. route to Finsbury Park is blocked, Horsham drivers don't sign towards Cricklewood so the Peterborough train goes nowhere and the whole northbound service stops.

Yup, the 4VEPs were far more comfortable by comparison...
At least it turned up with boring reliability. Anyway, you overlook 13 years of class 377s on the Southern trains before Thameslink took over.
 
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172101

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The other problem with the HRH-PBO service is that there are only about 6 diagrams with through work even less at weekends. So you get lots of drivers who either don't sign the route or need refreshers.
Welwyn drivers also work 4 day time returns on the BFR-SEV service to keep route knowlege.
Overall the GN work south of STP is very limited.
 
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