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What is the Covid-19 Exit Strategy of 'Zero Covid' countries such as Hong Kong?

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DustyBin

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Would it be great if the regimes of Iran, China and Russia all collapse within a year?

The protests are now serious enough for the BBC to have a live feed fronting the landing page about them:


On the face of it yes, but what would replace them?

For what it’s worth I think Iran has the best chance of seeing positive change. Ordinary Iranians have (just about) tolerated the regime for years, but appear to have now had enough.

I can’t see Xi or the CCP going anywhere, they have a very tight grip on power as well as some room to manoeuvre (I’d love to be wrong though!).

I think Putin is finished, it’s just a matter of when. I can’t see Russia suddenly becoming a democracy so his replacement will almost certainly come from the Russian elite. They’re a “mixed bag” and it could go either way……
 
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kristiang85

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From the BBC's live feed... This is desperate stuff from the Chinese govt ha.

Last week we reported how scenes of maskless fans enjoying the World Cup had stirred anger among some Chinese citizens who then questioned the need for zero-Covid restrictions.

That sparked furious discussion online - and authorities have responded.

China's Central Television (CCTV) is now editing out close-ups of spectators during games so local viewers don’t see thousands of fans without masks in the stands.

It's only showing wide-angle pictures of the crowds. There's also a half a minute delay in live broadcasts of games.
 

MikeWM

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It is good to see the protests though, and I strongly hope they go well. It puts another nail in the zero-Covid nonsense (though I'd note that the media now supporting the protestors are the same media that were pushing for zero-Covid or equivalent strategies in this country not so long ago). It also brings to sharp attention the 'permission required' nature of Chinese society, enforced by regular testing and QR code 'covid passes', which it is totally imperative we avoid in this country and around the West.

I wonder if western politicians will say anything in favour of the protests? Given they seem very keen to impose a Chinese-style 'permission required' society on us, via programmable central bank digital currencies, digital IDs and carbon credits, probably not.
 

Drogba11CFC

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To be honest the reason I had the two jabs was for travel, but I am not having any more.





I imagine Chinese TV is frantically trying to contact Susan Michie to have her come on and talk about how wonderful lockdowns are.
 

island

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How are they still in a situation with no vaccination and no direct immunity? Vaccines are available and have been for nearly two years, and natural herd immunity has been developing for nearer three years.
They're mainly using Sinovac which is less effective than the "big four" mainly used in the Western world.
 

DustyBin

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I imagine Chinese TV is frantically trying to contact Susan Michie to have her come on and talk about how wonderful lockdowns are.

Does anybody remember this complete abomination of “science”?


As the third wave of the pandemic takes hold across England, the UK Government plans to further re-open the nation. Implicit in this decision is the acceptance that infections will surge, but that this does not matter because vaccines have “broken the link between infection and mortality”.
1 On July 19, 2021—branded as Freedom Day—almost all restrictions are set to end. We believe this decision is dangerous and premature.
An end to the pandemic through population immunity requires enough of the population to be immune to prevent exponential growth of SARS-CoV-2. Population immunity is unlikely to be achieved without much higher levels of vaccination than can be reasonably expected by July 19, 2021. Proportionate mitigations will be needed to avoid hundreds of thousands of new infections, until many more are vaccinated. Nevertheless, the UK Government's intention to ease restrictions from July 19, 2021, means that immunity will be achieved by vaccination for some people but by natural infection for others (predominantly the young). The UK Health Secretary has stated that daily cases could reach 100 000 per day over the summer months of 2021.
2 The link between infection and death might have been weakened, but it has not been broken, and infection can still cause substantial morbidity in both acute and long-term illness. We have previously pointed to the dangers of relying on immunity by natural infection,
3 and we have five main concerns with the UK Government's plan to lift all restrictions at this stage of the pandemic.
First, unmitigated transmission will disproportionately affect unvaccinated children and young people who have already suffered greatly. Official UK Government datashow that as of July 4, 2021, 51% of the total UK population have been fully vaccinated and 68% have been partially vaccinated. Even assuming that approximately 20% of unvaccinated people are protected by previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, this still leaves more than 17 million people with no protection against COVID-19. Given this, and the high transmissibility of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant, exponential growth will probably continue until millions more people are infected, leaving hundreds of thousands of people with long-term illness and disability.
4 This strategy risks creating a generation left with chronic health problems and disability, the personal and economic impacts of which might be felt for decades to come.
Second, high rates of transmission in schools and in children will lead to significant educational disruption, a problem not addressed by abandoning isolation of exposed children (which is done on the basis of imperfect daily rapid tests).
5 The root cause of educational disruption is transmission, not isolation. Strict mitigations in schools alongside measures to keep community transmission low and eventual vaccination of children will ensure children can remain in schools safely.
6,
7,
8 This is all the more important for clinically and socially vulnerable children. Allowing transmission to continue over the summer will create a reservoir of infection, which will probably accelerate spread when schools and universities re-open in autumn.
Third, preliminary modelling data
9 suggest the government's strategy provides fertile ground for the emergence of vaccine-resistant variants. This would place all at risk, including those already vaccinated, within the UK and globally. While vaccines can be updated, this requires time and resources, leaving many exposed in the interim. Spread of potentially more transmissible escape variants would disproportionately affect the most disadvantaged in our country and other countries with poor access to vaccines.
Fourth, this strategy will have a significant impact on health services and exhausted health-care staff who have not yet recovered from previous infection waves. The link between cases and hospital admissions has not been broken, and rising case numbers will inevitably lead to increased hospital admissions, applying further pressure at a time when millions of people are waiting for medical procedures and routine care.
Fifth, as deprived communities are more exposed to and more at risk from COVID-19, these policies will continue to disproportionately affect the most vulnerable and marginalised, deepening inequalities.
In light of these grave risks, and given that vaccination offers the prospect of quickly reaching the same goal of population immunity without incurring them, we consider any strategy that tolerates high levels of infection to be both unethical and illogical. The UK Government must reconsider its current strategy and take urgent steps to protect the public, including children. We believe the government is embarking on a dangerous and unethical experiment, and we call on it to pause plans to abandon mitigations on July 19, 2021.
Instead, the government should delay complete re-opening until everyone, including adolescents, have been offered vaccination and uptake is high, and until mitigation measures, especially adequate ventilation (through investment in CO2 monitors and air filtration devices) and spacing (eg, by reducing class sizes), are in place in schools. Until then, public health measures must include those called for by WHO (universal mask wearing in indoor spaces, even for those vaccinated), the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE), the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (ventilation and air filtration), and Independent SAGE (effective border quarantine; test, trace isolate, and support). This will ensure that everyone is protected and make it much less likely that we will need further restrictions or lockdowns in the autumn.

All the usual suspects appear to have contributed, including comrade Michie.

It’s absolutely astonishing that these people are allowed anywhere near public health policy, and equally infuriating that they got away with abusing their positions to further their own political agendas.
 

Cdd89

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China has reportedly begun blurring or removing the spectators in coverage of the World Cup:

Chinese state television has been censoring World Cup footage of maskless crowds in an apparent attempt to control dissent against the nation's zero-Covid policies.
Hundreds of millions remain under strict pandemic restrictions and TV viewers in Beijing have noticed they are not seeing the same football coverage as other nations.
All broadcasters receive the exact same choice of camera angles from Fifa, but it appears China has been removing scenes of joyous fans.

I think that obvious censorship has the potential to backfire on them really badly, as it will make more people wonder what is being hidden from them.
 

scarby

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Former Sweden state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell warned about all this as far back as March 2020 - including that we would all end up with the same outcome sooner or later, that people would tire of harsh restrictions, that you needed an exit strategy from them and that we needed to take a holistic approach to the pandemic. Later in the pandemic, when asked why not recommend face masks he responded "look at the countries that have".

His views were absolutely vilified by sections of the media but the more time goes on he is shown to be correct on all counts.

China has done the total opposite to what he recommended. They have chosen a lot of long-term pain and ended up in a complete mess.
 

Bikeman78

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Does anybody remember this complete abomination of “science”?




All the usual suspects appear to have contributed, including comrade Michie.

It’s absolutely astonishing that these people are allowed anywhere near public health policy, and equally infuriating that they got away with abusing their positions to further their own political agendas.

Did a single one of the gloomy predictions come true? I'd forgotten about vaccine escaping variants! They never seem to get mentioned now.
 

MikeWM

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Former Sweden state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell warned about all this as far back as March 2020 - including that we would all end up with the same outcome sooner or later, that people would tire of harsh restrictions, that you needed an exit strategy from them and that we needed to take a holistic approach to the pandemic. Later in the pandemic, when asked why not recommend face masks he responded "look at the countries that have".

His views were absolutely vilified by sections of the media but the more time goes on he is shown to be correct on all counts.

China has done the total opposite to what he recommended. They have chosen a lot of long-term pain and ended up in a complete mess.

Tegnell is a hero of the last few years. He knew he was doing the correct thing and stuck to it, despite immense pressure to follow everyone else. As a result we have a country that shows that all the crazy stuff that most of the rest of the world tried to do was entirely pointless and indeed counter-productive to health, society and economy.
 

GS250

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Former Sweden state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell warned about all this as far back as March 2020 - including that we would all end up with the same outcome sooner or later, that people would tire of harsh restrictions, that you needed an exit strategy from them and that we needed to take a holistic approach to the pandemic. Later in the pandemic, when asked why not recommend face masks he responded "look at the countries that have".

His views were absolutely vilified by sections of the media but the more time goes on he is shown to be correct on all counts.

China has done the total opposite to what he recommended. They have chosen a lot of long-term pain and ended up in a complete mess.

To be fair, Sweden is a relatively low population country with even its most crowded areas nothing like London or other huge global cities. They had already embraced working from home for those who can and thus culturally were at an advantage in this respect.

However I agree on their overall strategy and viewpoint on covid.

I think we saw most countries true colours during covid. Those, who are generally very liberal. And those who in spite of being apparently being 'caring'....are very authoritarian and ignorant of the long term consequences.
 

kristiang85

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To be fair, Sweden is a relatively low population country with even its most crowded areas nothing like London or other huge global cities.

Sweden has one of the highest urban population densities of Europe.
 

DustyBin

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Sweden has one of the highest urban population densities of Europe.

Indeed; this was discussed “back in the day”. To be honest I wasn’t aware of this until several more knowledgeable posters (yourself included) pointed it out, but Sweden does in fact have very high urban population densities. The population looks small relative to the size of the country, but much of it is sparsely populated with the majority of people concentrated in a few urban areas.
 

M-Train

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On the face of it yes, but what would replace them?
This might be why the response to these anti-lockdown protests has, despite the existence of a common enemy, been tepid in HK right next door, quite aside from anything else imposed in the last couple of years: it is by no means a given that the current protesters up north actually wish to see the back of the PRC, and, even if they do, should they then remain under the influence of that brand of big-map ultranationalism (invented by the PRC) which might be too much even by NI loyalist standards, there is the risk that we remain unable to take any matters back into our own hands—particularly regarding the Common Law, our currency, and our tongue.
We do wish to see the back of the Pooh as much as anyone else; but what shall become of the Pooh’s spawn if given a populist nudge?

For what it’s worth I think Iran has the best chance of seeing positive change. Ordinary Iranians have (just about) tolerated the regime for years, but appear to have now had enough
I might also add that basic education levels there are, on average, to a higher level than PRC or Russia—might the much smaller population also be relevant?

I can’t see Xi or the CCP going anywhere, they have a very tight grip on power as well as some room to manoeuvre (I’d love to be wrong though!).
The word in the Sinosphere outside PRC proper is that this could just be another revolt without a revolution, a flash in the pan which might be ended with mouths being fed but without the introduction of any openness in Chinese society, or indeed any real reform, as has so often happened in the same part of the world.
Alternatively, given that the use of such harsh lockdowns has required widespread rejigging of logistics chains for rationing of all sorts of daily supplies as in a wartime situation—the Pooh might even be aping a certain junta and looking to attack Taiwan!
 
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yorkie

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Another interesting article:

If you want to know what the government's Covid plan is in China, look at what it does rather than what it says.
Take Beijing for example.
There has not been a significant drop in infections, yet public transport now no longer requires a PCR test result, bars and restaurants are slowly re-opening, and in some cases people are being allowed to isolate at home after catching Covid instead of going into centralised quarantine facilities.
So when you examine what is happening here right now, the trajectory seems clear - the government appears to have quietly dumped zero Covid as a goal.

I had a feeling this would happen!!

(Automerge)


Breaking news:
China has rolled back its most severe Covid policies - including forcing people into quarantine camps - just a week after landmark protests against the strict controls.
People with Covid can now isolate at home rather than in state facilities if they have mild or no symptoms.
They also no longer need to show tests for most venues, although a PCR test is needed for schools and hospitals.
However the lower quality vaccine, inadequate take up (among the groups that really matter) and the fact they didn't allow immunity to build up through natural infection mean they are not in a good position.

I think the lessons to learn from this will be that zero Covid/ suppression strategies were utterly misguided and that Sweden was right all along.

Those who criticised Sweden while supporting a suppression/elimination strategy who now admit they were wrong should be forgiven; I fell out with several people over this and I'm totally prepared to forgive them as I see admitting mistakes as a sign of strength, not weakness.

Remember in the summer of 2020 people were saying we should lock down a bit longer, a bit harder and it wild go away; what we should have been doing was building up more immunity, as Sweden was doing.

In the Summer of 2021 people said we were irresponsible for 'letting it rip' (as if there was any choice!)!and that we would have a disaster that summer; they also demanded 'Plan B' when omicron appeared and the disaster never happened.

We are in a far better position than China, despite China acting in a way that suppression strategy enthusiasts idolised.

I would like to see people who claimed I was wrong admit they were wrong. And I will have huge respect for those who do that.
 
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M-Train

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I had a feeling this would happen!!
And…the protests are no more, or so it seems. Apparently the view within the Great Firewall is that permanent Track & Trace (for non Covid related purposes), as was imposed not long ago*, would be perfectly fine!

Not to sound very pessimistic, but the initial apathy of the Outer Sinosphere seems to be borne out at least somewhat by that anticlimax.

*This type of thing is considered part of local govt in the PRC, and is thus unofficially federated: I recall that it was first intended for Peking, pending a nationwide rollout.
 

JaJaWa

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Even as someone that lives in Asia, it’s shocking how quickly Zero Covid in China has crumbled.

Within a few days, they ended mandatory quarantine centres, dropped widespread use of the QR health code, allowed cough/cold medicine to be sold without registration, dropped quarantine between cities, removed close contact quarantine, dropped daily PCR testing and introduced RAT tests, rewrote the news to remove reference to negative effects of long Covid, renamed Covid in Chinese, and removed its pandemic status.

In Hong Kong we still have to scan a QR code to enter every building and wear masks outside (neither are now the case there) so we now have possibly the strictest remaining Covid measures on the planet.
 

Jimini

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Even as someone that lives in Asia, it’s shocking how quickly Zero Covid in China has crumbled.

Within a few days, they ended mandatory quarantine centres, dropped widespread use of the QR health code, allowed cough/cold medicine to be sold without registration, dropped quarantine between cities, removed close contact quarantine, dropped daily PCR testing and introduced RAT tests, rewrote the news to remove reference to negative effects of long Covid, renamed Covid in Chinese, and removed its pandemic status.

In Hong Kong we still have to scan a QR code to enter every building and wear masks outside (neither are now the case there) so we now have possibly the strictest remaining Covid measures on the planet.

Very insightful info. Thanks for sharing!
 

Cdd89

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It is astonishing to see the photos of people being released en masse from their quarantine facilities, less than a year after the UK operated its own hotel quarantine programme with no statutory access to the outdoors.
 

yorkie

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This is well worth a listen (from 3 weeks ago now):

15 Nov 2022 #UnHerd #zerocovid #china
Did an overlooked government memo quietly cancel China's Zero Covid strategy? Freddie Sayers investigates the echoes of the Great Barrington Declaration in the Chinese Communist Party's new list of Covid policy amendments. Read the accompanying article: https://unherd.com/thepost/china-aban...

An interesting news report:
6 Dec 2022 #china #covid19 #protest
Citizens have been enduring leader Xi Jinping's zero-COVID goal for nearly three years. He had maintained that policy in part to solidify his political power. Chinese have been heavily surveilled with apps determining where they can go and what they can do, stretching many people to their limits.

For a long time I have realised zero Covid was unachievable and that Sars-CoV-2 would go the same way as similar viruses, such as OC43, with a transition from pandemic phase to endemic equilibrium.

I won't forget having such debates two and a half years ago:


I feel vindicated but I will have a lot of respect if those who disagreed with me can now admit they were wrong; we all make mistakes and elimination/suppression strategies were a huge mistake, for which China has paid a high price.

But we must not forget that the UK did appear to attempt to pursue an elimination strategy for some time in 2020 and that the far-left supporters of the Chinese approach were very critical of those of us who knew the truth.
 

johnnychips

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I just re-read the posts you quoted, and…blimey…it seems like an age away. If we weren’t killing children, then we were killing their grannies when they kissed them. I do hope the Chinese government ease off, but actually that will be because they see that their position is unsustainable - not because they realise they were wrong, but that people really, really have had enough and might do something about it.
 

DustyBin

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I feel vindicated but I will have a lot of respect if those who disagreed with me can now admit they were wrong; we all make mistakes and elimination/suppression strategies were a huge mistake, for which China has paid a high price.

But we must not forget that the UK did appear to attempt to pursue an elimination strategy for some time in 2020 and that the far-left supporters of the Chinese approach were very critical of those of us who knew the truth.

I can’t say that I supported the first lockdown per say, but I “went with it” as I didn’t know any better. I’ve always been honest about this. It quickly became apparent however that containment wasn’t a viable strategy and that elimination was simply impossible. Certainly by May 2020 I was vocally opposed to our futile and highly damaging attempts to delay the inevitable. Some of those posts you’ve linked make for incredible reading!
 

Richard Scott

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I can’t say that I supported the first lockdown per say, but I “went with it” as I didn’t know any better. I’ve always been honest about this. It quickly became apparent however that containment wasn’t a viable strategy and that elimination was simply impossible. Certainly by May 2020 I was vocally opposed to our futile and highly damaging attempts to delay the inevitable. Some of those posts you’ve linked make for incredible reading!
I agree, that was my own views. However some people couldn't (and some still can't) see past the 'but people are dying' phrase and not helped by the media.
 

Bikeman78

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I can’t say that I supported the first lockdown per say, but I “went with it” as I didn’t know any better. I’ve always been honest about this. It quickly became apparent however that containment wasn’t a viable strategy and that elimination was simply impossible. Certainly by May 2020 I was vocally opposed to our futile and highly damaging attempts to delay the inevitable. Some of those posts you’ve linked make for incredible reading!
Some people seemed to be happy for schools to remain closed UFN. Trying to keep primary aged children occupied, let alone teach them anything, every day whilst trying to do my own work too was impossible. If some people made it work, fair play to them, but it didn't work for me. Fortunately, my kids seem to have come out of the other side unscathed.
 

brad465

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The WHO now reporting China's hospitals filling up with covid patients:


Hospitals in China appear to be filling up amid concerns about a fresh Covid-19 wave hitting the country, the World Health Organization (WHO) says.
Dr Michael Ryan says intensive care units (ICU) are busy despite officials saying number are "relatively low".
China figures show no-one died of Covid on Wednesday but there is scepticism about the disease's real impact.
In recent days hospitals in Beijing and other cities have been filling up as the latest Covid surge hits China.
Since 2020, China has imposed strict health restrictions as part of a so-called zero Covid policy.
But, the government ended most of those measures two weeks ago because of their significant impact on the economy.
The number of cases has since soared, raising fears of a high mortality rate among the elderly, who are particularly vulnerable.
Despite the rise, the official figures show only five people died from Covid on Tuesday and two on Monday.

It has led to WHO emergencies chief Dr Ryan urging China to provide more information about the latest spread of the virus.
He said: "In China, what's been reported is relatively low numbers of cases in ICUs, but anecdotally ICUs are filling up.
"We've been saying this for weeks that this highly infectious virus was always going to be very hard to stop completely, with just public health and social measures."
Speaking in Geneva, Dr Ryan added that "vaccination is the exit strategy".
China has developed and produced its own vaccines, which have been shown to be less effective at protecting people against serious Covid illness and death than the mRNA vaccines used in much of the rest of the world.
His comments come as the German government announced on Wednesday it had sent its first batch of BioNTech Covid-19 vaccines to China.

If China did indeed allow covid to spread abroad and encourage lockdowns in the West to try and destabilise them, what's going on now has to be one of the strongest ever examples of "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
 

M-Train

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If China did indeed allow covid to spread abroad and encourage lockdowns in the West to try and destabilise them, what's going on now has to be one of the strongest ever examples of "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword."
I doubt Peking would’ve had any moral qualms about unleashing such a thing on the wider world; but considering the blowback that did already emerge at early stages of the pandemic, one might also doubt if they were that stupid, the Cultural Revolution notwithstanding.
 
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