What would happen if a driver was given a wrong route?

[ClagLover]

If a train is sent the wrong route, but the driver accepts the route, would both the driver and the signaller get a telling off?
I assume if the driver notices and stops before hand then only the signaller would be disciplined or smacked on the wrist?
Finally, had anyone ever been travelling and had this happen?

 

[_toommm_]

If the driver accepts it and they’re not meant to, then it’s 50/50. If they stop before the signal they’d phone the signaller and then they’d have to wait the three??? minutes for the route to cancel before they could choose another one.

 

[ClagLover]

If the driver accepts it and they’re not meant to, then it’s 50/50. If they stop before the signal they’d phone the signaller and then they’d have to wait the three??? minutes for the route to cancel before they could choose another one.

Do you know if it’s quite a rare cock up. Or if it happens more than you’d think.

 

[jfowkes]

What does "accepting" a route mean please?

 

[Mag_seven]

What does "accepting" a route mean please?

It means if you as a driver are signalled to take a route (which may be the incorrect one) you take it without questioning it.

In terms of delay attribution if the driver accepted a wrong routing then the resulting delay minutes would be split 50 / 50 between the driver and the signaller but if the driver questioned the wrongly set route then the resulting delay minutes would be 100% down to the signaller.

 

[Skie]

Of course there are a few ways to alert the signaller without dropping him in it, even in the days of recorded conversations.

 

[elbows47]

Many years ago, 1970s or 198os, I was on an electric London-Birmingham train that left Coventry and came to a sudden halt shortly after. Looking out the window, it was clear that the loco had stopped just round the curve on to the Nuneaton line, fortunately stopping short of the end of overhead.
A little while later we slowly reversed towards the station before heading back the correct way. I'm pretty sure we didn't actually reach the station before going forward again.

Something slightly different, on a commuter run from the Bexleyheath Line to Blackfriars in the late 60s, after a delay at Lewisham and an announcement, we went through St Johns and New Cross fast to London Bridge, where people started to get out. They then announced that the train would go on to Blackfriars, a route not then timetabled, so I got back on board. Of course much later that became a regular route for Thameslink!

 

[Horizon22]

Do you know if it’s quite a rare cock up. Or if it happens more than you’d think.

Depends how often you think it would happen! On a large TOC it might happen say once or twice a week maybe.

Most of the time you wouldn't know it had ever happened and would probably be explained away as "sorry we're delayed here folks, I've been advised there's a fault with the signalling system, should be on the move shortly".

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If the driver accepts it and they’re not meant to, then it’s 50/50. If they stop before the signal they’d phone the signaller and then they’d have to wait the three??? minutes for the route to cancel before they could choose another one.

Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

 

[Horizon22]

Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

This happened - or at least there's similarities to what you mention - on a train departing Waterloo that eventually derailed; the driver noted the points seemed misaligned but due to a wiring issue.

Report 19/2018: Collision at London Waterloo

Collision at London Waterloo, 15 August 2017.

www.gov.uk

30. Soon after moving away from the platform, the train was travelling at about 15 mph (24 km/h) when the driver noticed that 1524 points were not correctly set and applied the train’s brakes (figure 8)... Drivers are not required, and not expected, to check point positions in these circumstances. The driver of train 2D03 is to be commended for noticing that they were lying incorrectly and for his prompt brake application

 

[ClagLover]

Depends how often you think it would happen! On a large TOC it might happen say once or twice a week maybe.

Most of the time you wouldn't know it had ever happened and would probably be explained away as "sorry we're delayed here folks, I've been advised there's a fault with the signalling system, should be on the move shortly".

I’ve certainly heard that a few times!

 

[Horizon22]

I’ve certainly heard that a few times!

And the vast majority of the time it will be exactly that of course - however when such "operational incidents" do rarely occur, they are normally explained in more...customer friendly terms.

 

[zwk500]

Out of interest, is it theoretically possible that a train could be given the wrong route where there is no way for the driver to know until it's too late to stop in time? I'm thinking like, a set of points where, by the time the driver sees a signal showing which way the points are set, it would be impossible to stop the train before the points?

In terms of a correctly signalled route, yes. If the route itself is not indicated until the actual protecting signal, i.e. there's no approach control or Preliminary Route Indicators and the signals are green all the way the driver may not be able to stop. However this would be quite a rare setup.

 

[The Lad]

Some locations have advance indicator arrows showing the direction set well before the junction signal, eg Sowerby Bridge heading east.

 

[Annetts key]

How often miss-routing happens varies. It is most likely when the majority of trains go the ‘normal’ way, but the occasional train goes via a different route. Or when trains have already been diverted or a different temporary timetable or a new timetable is in operation. Or when the train description is incorrect.

The signaller should cross check the train description (head code) with the working timetable or electronic equivalent. But mistakes do happen…

How soon a driver knows very much depends on the location and the infrastructure involved. All junction signals give a different route indication if the route that has been set is not the main one (the main one normally being the ‘higher speed’ ‘straight on’ ‘main line’ route, but there are exceptions).

Some places are harder to tell than others. How fast the train is travelling also makes a big difference. If the train is already going slow, it’s a lot easier to stop before the junction signal.

For the majority of junctions, there is no advance warning which way the junction is set until the junction signal comes into view.

Similarly, getting out of the mess is easier in some places than in others.

 

[sw1ller]

6 years driving and I’ve only had two, 3 days apart. Completely different locations.

 

[Dieseldriver]

This happened - or at least there's similarities to what you mention - on a train departing Waterloo that eventually derailed; the driver noted the points seemed misaligned but due to a wiring issue.

Report 19/2018: Collision at London Waterloo

Collision at London Waterloo, 15 August 2017.

www.gov.uk

That’s a completely different kettle of fish to a wrong route. The incident at Waterloo was a serious wrong side signalling failure that caused a collision between two trains (extremely fortunately at low speed).
A wrong route occurs when the signalling system is functioning correctly but the Signaller inadvertently signals a train to an incorrect route.

I would guess I’ve been wrong routed about 12 times in my driving career (12 years).

 

[trebor79]

I was on a CrossCountry HST about 20 years ago that was given thw wrong route. The NE to SW services all went via either Leeds or Doncaster. On this occasion, the train would normally have gone via Leeds but due to engineering we were diverted along a very interesting route past lots of industrial and railway depot sites.
Anyway, before that point we're blasting along south of York when all of a sudden the brakes come on and we stop. After a short delay explained we had been wrong routed towards Doncaster instead of coming off the main line. Detected a bit if excitement in the guards voice as he explained he'd have to get down into the track to help the driver reverse back over the junction. We were on our way again before long.

Wasn't there a train in South Wales about 20 years ago that went on 15 miles magical mystery tour of freight only lives before the driver thought he'd best stop?

 

[Horizon22]

That’s a completely different kettle of fish to a wrong route. The incident at Waterloo was a serious wrong side signalling failure that caused a collision between two trains (extremely fortunately at low speed).
A wrong route occurs when the signalling system is functioning correctly but the Signaller inadvertently signals a train to an incorrect route.

I would guess I’ve been wrong routed about 12 times in my driving career (12 years).

That's true, but I was more referring to the 'does the driver know something is going to happen in advance question'.

 

[Ceat0908]

Out of curiosity, say a guard was dispatching from a platform with a feather indicator, and it was the wrong route but they dispatched and the driver never noticed, would they also be partly to blame?

 

[jfowkes]

Are the majority of routes set manually like this, with a signaller having to manually choose the route for each train?

How much automation is involved, outside of systems like the Thameslink core or crossrail?

 

[zwk500]

Are the majority of routes set manually like this, with a signaller having to manually choose the route for each train?

How much automation is involved, outside of systems like the Thameslink core or crossrail?

A fair amount of the network now uses ARS (Automatic Route Setting), where the computer calls each route as per the timetable it has loaded. This isn't foolproof, and wrong routing from ARS has been known for a number of reasons, from planning error to late-notice change to a rather wonderful quirk of Unique database IDs and Q paths.

Pretty much anywhere resignalled since the late 80s will now be ARS to some degree. Rugby SCC is an exception (although the ROC does have ARS).

 

[Intermodal]

Out of curiosity, say a guard was dispatching from a platform with a feather indicator, and it was the wrong route but they dispatched and the driver never noticed, would they also be partly to blame?

The driver would be in exactly as much trouble as usual, in addition to the guard being in trouble. "The guard told me to go" excuse would be laughed out the room by a driver manager.

 

[Beebman]

Back in 1989 I was on a Hertfordshire Railtour (The Cheshire Cat on June 24th) when the driver accepted the wrong route at Cornbrook Junction and instead of taking the Altrincham line as booked it went on the CLC route. According to the entry for the tour on Six Bells Junction the train stopped after a quarter of a mile but my recollection is that the driver didn't slam on the brakes until at least a few seconds after passing the junction and that we came to rest maybe somewhat further along than that (but not as far as the MUFC ground). I don't recall much of a delay before the driver set back past the junction, indeed it would appear from the timings that only about 4 minutes were lost:

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/890624hr.htm

(As can be seen it was a rather eventful railtour which saw me return to Watford Jct about 2 hours late!)

 

[jfowkes]

A fair amount of the network now uses ARS (Automatic Route Setting), where the computer calls each route as per the timetable it has loaded. This isn't foolproof, and wrong routing from ARS has been known for a number of reasons, from planning error to late-notice change to a rather wonderful quirk of Unique database IDs and Q paths.

Ah ok, so route setting errors are probably more likely to be a signaller missing an incorrectly set automatic route than incorrectly setting their own manually? Is that fair to say?

 

[Annetts key]

Although ARS systems exist, it does not prevent the problem if the signaller is manually running their workstation, as some do like to do.

 

[Highlandspring]

Pretty much anywhere resignalled since the late 80s will now be ARS to some degree. Rugby SCC is an exception (although the ROC does have ARS).

Personally I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say ‘pretty much anywhere’. It‘s true of the majority of large VDU based centres with computer based interlockings but there have been plenty of smaller schemes over the last three decades - even VDU/CBI workstations - that are not so fitted.

 

[zwk500]

Ah ok, so route setting errors are probably more likely to be a signaller missing an incorrectly set automatic route than incorrectly setting their own manually? Is that fair to say?

No, because as others have mentioned, there's plenty of the network not fitted, and even on fitted areas Signallers can take manual control (and indeed have to, if the move isn't timetabled, or changes are happening, or there's an incident, etc).

 

[_toommm_]

It's worth mentioning though that some routes may technically be 'wrong' i.e. different to what is booked, but drivers on that particular route are told to accept them without question. I swear there's one on the southern end of the WCML (maybe diverging to Northampton???).

 

[zwk500]

It's worth mentioning though that some routes may technically be 'wrong' i.e. different to what is booked, but drivers on that particular route are told to accept them without question. I swear there's one on the southern end of the WCML (maybe diverging to Northampton???).

Yep, Northampton or Weedon is fine either way, (as long as you're not booked to stop at Northampton or Long Buckby, of course) I think Stafford and Hixon is another pair on the WCML, along with the Quarry lines or Redhill on the Brighton Mainline. There's probably a few others.