When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
5,912
Johnson and Air Miles Andy sum up what is so wrong with feudal and increasingly authoritarian Britain. Whips being imposed for every vote (remember the vote to let Patterson off for corruption?) removes MP's freedom to vote according to conscience.

Bit of a wanton exaggeration there eh? I've been into the countryside quite a lot of times over the last few years, and I can't recall *ever* seeing any people who appeared to be serfs working in the fields. As for whips... Personally I think there's a good case for the whips having a bit less power, but the whip system has been around for many, many, decades. It's not something new, and it doesn't remotely make the country 'authoritarian'.

I hope that in due course Anne-marie Morris as an Independent trounces the Tory (increasingly a fascist party) candidate.

Do you have any idea what fascism is like? Seriously? Go read a bit about some of real fascist dictatorships that existed in the 20th century. There is much to criticise about the Tory party, but it is not remotely fascist. To my mind, saying that it is seems rather belittling towards the many millions of people who have died at the hands of actual fascist Governments.

And if/when Andy is told to pay damages to Ms Giuffre, the money comes out of his own (or Mrs Windsor's) pocket, not the taxpayers'. High time that Britain became a genuine democracy, of which I could be a proud citizen.

Last time I checked, the UK was a genuine democracy. (Do you really imagine that, if the UK wasn't a democracy, news about this party would be being so widely reported, with the possibility seriously being discussed that it will force the Prime Minister to resign, and the further possibility that it might contribute towards the governing party losing the next election? What do you think would have happened if a similar party had taken place in - say - Russia, with Vladimir Putin in attendance? Do you think the Russian media would be widely reporting it, with opposition politicians being freely reported on Russian tv news, calling for Putin to resign?)
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
11,376
Location
St Albans
You think that will stop the MSM. Boris is pretty much the scapegoat now for the parties, despite a lot more people being there....
The MSM probably isn't the source of information of these damaging errors of judgement by the PM. Look no further than Cummings. He would have sufficient evidence of who was there, what they drank etc., maybe supported by pictures. If Johnson doesn't get flushed out of Downing St. this time he will move on to the next embarassing incident. So far Johnson has framed each 'apology' as an apology for other's misdemeanours, - sooner or later there will be one the he and he alone owns on behalf of nobody else.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
444
If you look at 'Queen's consent' - by which the Queen can stop legislation that adversely affects her - and Crown exemptions from some laws, e.g. planning, then it is clear that we have not yet broken with feudalism.

The whip system has been around for a long time, but I find it repulsive when it is used to dragoon Tory MPs into voting for legislation aimed at getting a corrupt MP 'off the hook'. And to withdraw the whip from the Tory MP for daring to vote against the government on the VAT for energy motion, suggests a measure of intolerance that looks heavy handed.

I do believe that the government has authoritarian tendencies. Of course Britain is nowhere near the state that Russia (and, even worse, China) are in. But fascism creeps in, and vigilance is necessary, lest we go down the same terrible road as Nazi Germany. I wouldn't wish to belittle the sufferings of victims of fascism.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
4,411
Location
Maidstone
Do you have any idea what fascism is like? Seriously? Go read a bit about some of real fascist dictatorships that existed in the 20th century. There is much to criticise about the Tory party, but it is not remotely fascist. To my mind, saying that it is seems rather belittling towards the many millions of people who have died at the hands of actual fascist Governments.
We're not a fascist country right now, that's true. But fascism in other countries in history did not emerge in an instant, it was a gradual progression that largely started with dividing the population and setting them up against one another, while at the same time passing legislation that slowly eroded/removed freedoms until the tipping point was reached to achieve a full blown dictatorship.

To say the population has been divided and put against one another in the UK of late feels like an understatement. It's politically convenient for the public to have "enemies" to distract politicians from their own failures, and/or to distract them while they exploit the population (this is not unique to the UK, but certainly has been done here plenty). We have the Police Bill going through Parliament right now that removes many rights to protest, and Patel shoved a load of extra measures in during the Lord's Committee stage, as if to say she wanted to avoid them being scrutinised as much as possible. There's also the introduction of voter ID that is widely believed to reduce turnout in elections (while no evidence of widespread voter fraud exists), and the immigration and border's bill has draconian powers to remove British Citizenship from dual nationals without warning or clear justification (the subject of another existing thread). This is what they're doing now, if they get away with all this, who knows what else they'll try and get away with.

The biggest threat to democracy here though isn't so much how the current Government is behaving, it's our British exceptionalism that says "it can't happen here". It's this mentality that makes me believe it absolutely can happen here and must be stopped/prevented while we can, by improving our democracy in whatever channels of fairness and accountability are possible.
 

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
Bit of a wanton exaggeration there eh? I've been into the countryside quite a lot of times over the last few years, and I can't recall *ever* seeing any people who appeared to be serfs working in the fields. As for whips... Personally I think there's a good case for the whips having a bit less power, but the whip system has been around for many, many, decades. It's not something new, and it doesn't remotely make the country 'authoritarian'.

Do you have any idea what fascism is like? Seriously? Go read a bit about some of real fascist dictatorships that existed in the 20th century. There is much to criticise about the Tory party, but it is not remotely fascist. To my mind, saying that it is seems rather belittling towards the many millions of people who have died at the hands of actual fascist Governments.

Last time I checked, the UK was a genuine democracy. (Do you really imagine that, if the UK wasn't a democracy, news about this party would be being so widely reported, with the possibility seriously being discussed that it will force the Prime Minister to resign, and the further possibility that it might contribute towards the governing party losing the next election? What do you think would have happened if a similar party had taken place in - say - Russia, with Vladimir Putin in attendance? Do you think the Russian media would be widely reporting it, with opposition politicians being freely reported on Russian tv news, calling for Putin to resign?)
Fascism got elected to power, and didn't start with absolute tyranny. The signs were there of course, just like today. It's this thing called a slippery slope, but I get the feeling you believe that to be a fallacy...
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
5,912
Fascism got elected to power, and didn't start with absolute tyranny. The signs were there of course, just like today. It's this thing called a slippery slope, but I get the feeling you believe that to be a fallacy...

Regarding the slippery slope thing... Yes a slippery slopes can exist, but I think it's also important - if you want to criticise a Government - to criticise them for what they are actually doing or saying. Most times that I see people talking about a slippery slope, they are basically saying something like, but "if the Government does X, that could lead to Y" (Except they don't mention that Y is something that basically no-one has ever seriously suggested doing and there's no reason to think the Government are even remotely planning to do Y). To my mind that's dishonest scaremongering, with the phrase 'slippery slope' being used to legitimise the scaremongering.

To be clear, I think Boris's account today of the 20 May party was ridiculous and his position as PM is now untenable - I'm not remotely trying to defend him in that regard. But I also think it's important to be honest and accurate in criticising him/the Tories. Talk of the UK somehow not being a democracy or of us turning into a fascist state, based on current circumstances, is beyond ridiculous.
 
Last edited:

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
Regarding the slippery slope thing... Yes a slippery slopes can exist, but I think it's also important - if you want to criticise a Government - to criticise them for what they are actually doing or saying. Most times that I see people talking about a slippery slope, they are basically saying something like, but "if the Government does X, that could lead to Y" (Except they don't mention that Y is something that basically no-one has ever seriously suggested doing and there's no reason to think the Government are even remotely planning to do Y). To my mind that's dishonest scaremongering, with the phrase 'slippery slope' being used to legitimise the scaremongering.
I mean, if you want to see actual scaremongering in action, just turn on the TV.....

Fearing the government isn't irrational, it's common sense to keep them in check.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
721
Location
The North
Problem is, there was likely a lot of the MSM media there, and I doubt they'd report on themselves.
You mean The Sun. Which is why they've avoiding this story like the plague.

Worth not brandishing all as the same - somehow having a go at the 'mainstream media' is in vogue - despite most of these pop up organisations that say they know truth to power being as bent as Cressida Dick.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
444
The Police etc bill, now going through the legislative process, is surely warning enough. Neither Hitler, nor Stalin, were keen on allowing protest. Johnson and Patel are looking just a little like Putin and Xi. I'd rather be a little too alarmist than a little too complacent about this.
 

Kez

Member
Joined
8 May 2021
Messages
73
Location
Scotland
To be clear, I think Boris's account today of the 20 May party was ridiculous and his position as PM is now untenable - I'm not remotely trying to defend him in that regard. But I also think it's important to be honest and accurate in criticising him/the Tories. Talk of the UK somehow not being a democracy or of us turning into a fascist state, based on current circumstances, is beyond ridiculous.

Absolutely agree, though it depends on the definition of what democracy is which is tricky since it is an ideal not a fixed entity (as many people think it is). I'm sure many Russians believe they live in a democracy (they vote, don't they), similarly China (you get your say but you have to be part of the communist party to be listened to). 'Democracy' is different things to different people.

I think that political discourse is becoming very polarised, in large part thanks to the likes of Twitter where people just shout sentences at each other.

Johnson and his cabinet who are trying to defend the indefensible should go. They have lost all authority and the ability to govern. We are in a pandemic and, regardless of whether you believe them necessary or not, they are now unable to impose any restrictions and cannot expect any compliance.

Ironically, I suspect that I find myself in bed with the true blue Tories of the south-east who believe that our leaders should have a modicum of decency and integrity.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
2,628
The Police etc bill, now going through the legislative process, is surely warning enough. Neither Hitler, nor Stalin, were keen on allowing protest. Johnson and Patel are looking just a little like Putin and Xi. I'd rather be a little too alarmist than a little too complacent about this.

While I won't use terms like 'fascist' I do think Patel is a rather extreme individual in the context of democratic politics. She seems extraordinarily authoritarian even by current standards and appears to want to clamp down on protests. Remember she also wanted people to 'snitch' on neighbours if they met in groups of more than 6; whatever you think of the restrictions, encouraging 'snitching' on neighbours is very, very bad. She also seems to have a fanatical hatred of immigration and of course was one of the 'Britannia Unchained' lot.

For a combination of right-wing and authoritarian, only Tebbit comes close in the past 40 years. Patel is at least as right wing as Farage, but even more obnoxious. I think Patel could do us all a favour by joining the current Farage project, as then we might be rid of her as an MP and certainly a minister. But she won't, as I suspect one of the things she loves is power.
 
Last edited:

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
444
While I won't use terms like 'fascist' I do think Patel is a rather extreme individual in the context of democratic politics. She seems extraordinarily authoritarian even by current standards and appears to want to clamp down on protests. Remember she also wanted people to 'snitch' on neighbours if they met in groups of more than 6; whatever you think of the restrictions, encouraging 'snitching' on neighbours is very, very bad. She also seems to have a fanatical hatred of immigration and of course was one of the 'Britannia Unchained' lot.

For a combination of right-wing and authoritarian, only Tebbit comes close in the past 40 years. Patel is at least as right wing as Farage, but even more obnoxious. I think Patel could do us all a favour by joining the current Farage project, as then we might be rid of her as an MP and certainly a minister. But she won't, as I suspect one of the things she loves is power.
Yes, Patel is the most dangerous one, and the force behind the dangerous Police and Crime bill. I'd be the first to agree that the Extinction Rebellion blocks on main roads were stopping people getting to work, to say nothing of emergency vehicles, but if you give the police any powers you can be sure they will be misused. For example, anti-terror legislation used as an excuse to stop Austrian tourists from photographing London buses.
 

nw1

Established Member
Joined
9 Aug 2013
Messages
2,628
Yes, Patel is the most dangerous one, and the force behind the dangerous Police and Crime bill. I'd be the first to agree that the Extinction Rebellion blocks on main roads were stopping people getting to work, to say nothing of emergency vehicles, but if you give the police any powers you can be sure they will be misused. For example, anti-terror legislation used as an excuse to stop Austrian tourists from photographing London buses.

Indeed. And it shows the bad character of Johnson in a) appointing and b) keeping her on as Home Secretary; particularly after that alleged bullying scandal.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
5,912
The Police etc bill, now going through the legislative process, is surely warning enough. Neither Hitler, nor Stalin, were keen on allowing protest. Johnson and Patel are looking just a little like Putin and Xi. I'd rather be a little too alarmist than a little too complacent about this.

Well yes, and *IF* the Government was pushing forward a bill that severely restricted people's right to protest then I'd be extremely concerned. But they aren't, I would say that's just the usual misinformation and exaggeration from the opposition parties and the left. They are pushing a bill that is largely aimed at ensuring that street protests don't intimidate or unreasonably disrupt other people trying to go about their lives or involve wanton vandalism (extinction rebellion blocking roads, chaining themselves to DLR trains and blocking public transport is a prime example). I don't think the bill is perfect, and possibly some provisions of it are badly drafted, but I'm pretty sure it is not going to impact your right to peacefully protest.

It's also worth remembering by the way that these days, most effective protest takes place online, in the form of people sharing memes and writing things to convince others that the Government is doing something wrong, MPs speaking in Parliament, the media and social media reporting stuff and so on, and then ultimately through people voting at elections: None of that is in any way threatened by the bill - you'll freely and publicly be able to express your view and convince other people of your views just as much as before.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
4,411
Location
Maidstone
They are pushing a bill that is largely aimed at ensuring that street protests don't intimidate or unreasonably disrupt other people trying to go about their lives or involve wanton vandalism (extinction rebellion blocking roads, chaining themselves to DLR trains and blocking public transport is a prime example). I don't think the bill is perfect, and possibly some provisions of it are badly drafted, but I'm pretty sure it is not going to impact your right to peacefully protest.
There are already laws against wanton vandalism and other disruption that has seen XR and IB protestors, among others, get arrested, fined and in some cases jail sentences.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
444
There are already laws against wanton vandalism and other disruption that has seen XR and IB protestors, among others, get arrested, fined and in some cases jail sentences.
Quite. The new laws give the police too many opportunities to clamp down on genuine non-violent protest - and they will misuse their new powers. Otherwise, why did Patel leave it so late, so that she could sneak in new provisions without a proper debate? Unnecessary new laws always make me feel wary.
 

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
You mean The Sun. Which is why they've avoiding this story like the plague.

Worth not brandishing all as the same - somehow having a go at the 'mainstream media' is in vogue - despite most of these pop up organisations that say they know truth to power being as bent as Cressida Dick.
Then why haven't a single one of them printed Cummings' list?
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
4,411
Location
Maidstone
What's not helping the Tory party generally is the Cabinet are rallying around Johnson at the moment. This will only serve to associate themselves with the damage Johnson is doing, making the party less likely/able to fully recover whenever Johnson goes. At the very least this will damage leadership bid credentials for any Cabinet Minister defending him now but wanting to succeed him.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
22,443
Location
Nottingham
What's not helping the Tory party generally is the Cabinet are rallying around Johnson at the moment. This will only serve to associate themselves with the damage Johnson is doing, making the party less likely/able to fully recover whenever Johnson goes. At the very least this will damage leadership bid credentials for any Cabinet Minister defending him now but wanting to succeed him.
Sunak seems to be doing this to the minimum extent he can get away with, and when Truss said she was 100% behind Johnson I couldn't help adding in my head "and getting the dagger out".
 

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
Sunak seems to be doing this to the minimum extent he can get away with, and when Truss said she was 100% behind Johnson I couldn't help adding in my head "and getting the dagger out".
Sunak is the next George Osborne. I doubt he has any real chance of succeeding Johnson.
 

Acfb

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
125
The dream opponent for Labour would surely be Liz Truss. I believe Hunt is already negotiating with Sunak to ensure Sunak gets to the final two in a future leadership election.

I assume Johnson's successor will be someone who's currently in the cabinet unless Penny Mordaunt gives it a go.

I have no idea how things will play out, I can see easily see Johnson well lasting beyond May as it will be quite easy to spin relatively bad results unless they're catastrophically bad.
Sunak is the next George Osborne. I doubt he has any real chance of succeeding Johnson.

What's interesting is in the hypothetical Redfield and Wilton polling on 'best PM' Sunak only does 4% better than Johnson against Starmer.
 

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
You can make some money with the bookmakers then. These are the latest odds from https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics for the "Next Conservative Leader"

Odds
Rishi Sunak2/1
Liz Truss 41/10
Jeremy Hunt9/1
Michael Gove25/2
Of those, I'd bet on Hunt. He's the least divisive and I don't think he's said anything about the current situation, or at least the media attention hasn't been on him.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
1,374
Of those, I'd bet on Hunt. He's the least divisive and I don't think he's said anything about the current situation, or at least the media attention hasn't been on him.
The problem Hunt will have is his past career as Health Secretary. It will be easy to attack him for the state of the NHS and it’s preparedness for the pandemic. Then there’s the fact that he lost the last leadership election, has anyone come back and been successful at their second attempt for the position?

The last few leaders have seemed to be elected as reactions to the previous one. Howard was to the right, so the more liberal Cameron was the response. May had a tougher reputation from being Home Secretary. She was a very stiff and unnatural public speaker, so Johnson the celebrity was the opposite.

Johnson is a comparative spendthrift by Tory standards and willing to say anything that he thinks will be popular. I think the reaction is likely to be a more solidly ideological right winger.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
2,164
ohnson and Air Miles Andy sum up what is so wrong with feudal and increasingly authoritarian Britain. Whips being imposed for every vote (remember the vote to let Patterson off for corruption?) removes MP's freedom to vote according to conscience

Of course, the solution to that is to have a bunch of MPs who don't have a conscience. There seem to be quite a few of them already
 

MattRat

Established Member
Joined
26 May 2021
Messages
1,392
Location
Liverpool
The problem Hunt will have is his past career as Health Secretary. It will be easy to attack him for the state of the NHS and it’s preparedness for the pandemic. Then there’s the fact that he lost the last leadership election, has anyone come back and been successful at their second attempt for the position?

The last few leaders have seemed to be elected as reactions to the previous one. Howard was to the right, so the more liberal Cameron was the response. May had a tougher reputation from being Home Secretary. She was a very stiff and unnatural public speaker, so Johnson the celebrity was the opposite.

Johnson is a comparative spendthrift by Tory standards and willing to say anything that he thinks will be popular. I think the reaction is likely to be a more solidly ideological right winger.
If Gove has a chance, so does Hunt. And I'd say Johnson's defining trait is buffoonary, so the opposite of that would be someone sensible.
 

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
2,065
Location
From Paisley, sadly.
The reputation hasn’t been helped by the bashing of Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives over his calls for Boris Johnson to resign.

A senior UK government minister has dismissed the Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross as a "lightweight" within the party, after he called for the prime minister's resignation.
Mr Ross said Boris Johnson should step down after he admitted attending a Downing Street party during lockdown.
Jacob Rees-Mogg said Mr Ross was a "lightweight figure", and the PM had the support of more "important" MPs.
Ruth Davidson has also been increasingly vocal about the parties. Which I’m glad to see as she is probably one of the only Tories I can stand.
Dozens of people in the basement with a DJ, dancing and a suitcase full of booze? I still can't conceive how anyone - anyone - thought any of this was OK. Especially when the rest of the country was doing their damndest to play by the rules, often at great personal cost.
This line won't survive 48 hrs. Nobody needs an official to tell them if they were at a boozy shindig in their own garden. People are (rightly) furious. They sacrificed so much - visiting sick or grieving relatives, funerals. What tf were any of these people thinking?

From what we can see, it seems like the Conservatives are starting to crumble a bit. Things seem to be getting more divided.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
12,647
Location
Devon
From what we can see, it seems like the Conservatives are starting to crumble a bit. Things seem to be getting more divided.

They pretty much always find a way to pull together in the end though because they crave being in power.
Labour on the other hand just seem to crave being right.
 

Top