Why can't Optare sell buses?

[MotCO]

Yes, I know that they do sell buses, but they do seem to struggle compared to other manufacturers. A couple of examples will show what I mean:

1. Although I have not been on one, I understand that Wright Streetlites are not universally liked, but they still seem to outsell the Optare Solo. I know the Solo is older, but against perceived weak opposition, they still seem to struggle.

2. The Optare Metrodecker should sell well, not least because its unladen weight is low giving good mpg, but also because it has been exensively tested and trialled with a number of operators. So what is wrong with it? Don't operators like integral products? But the Enviro 400 and Wright Streetdeck are also integrals and sell well. The Streetdeck uses a Mercedes engine which I don't think is available in other double deck configurations, so is untried in this sense. Indeed, the Streetdeck seems to have been bought by a number of operators when it was first launched, and I don't recall much trialling with operators beforehand. Ditto the Volvo MCV Evoseti; although the underpinings have been proved elsewhere with other bodies, the Evoseti appears to have been bought 'off-plan'.

So my question is, why can't Optare sell buses and be a big-league player like Alexander Dennis and Wright?

 

[Boo_]

Well it be down to deals as the book price is not what most pay.

The big players offer deals to big groups sometimes they will make less but can make money as they buy in bulk. most smaller firms would deal with lease firms who again do deals with big players.

 

[fgwrich]

Quality Control seems to often be mentioned when it comes to Optare products, as well as long lead times too. One of I'm sure a number of reasons as to why Reading Buses pulled their order, of what should have been, a flagship order for both Reading and Optare.

 

[MotCO]

Quality Control seems to often be mentioned when it comes to Optare products, as well as long lead times too. One of I'm sure a number of reasons as to why Reading Buses pulled their order, of what should have been, a flagship order for both Reading and Optare.

But Reading had extensively trialled the Metrodecker and other vehicles before they placed the order, so they must have known what they were getting. The long lead time is a real mystery - there are photos of the buses in build about a year ago.

 

[fgwrich]

But Reading had extensively trialled the Metrodecker and other vehicles before they placed the order, so they must have known what they were getting. The long lead time is a real mystery - there are photos of the buses in build about a year ago.

Very true, it certainly is an odd one indeed. More so now that Optare will be stuck with however many that were actually constructed. I Wonder though if other operators were watching the Optare / Reading saga and may now be wary of placing any further orders with them?

 

[Eyersey468]

Why are Optares lead times so long? There were some ordered ages ago for York which have only just arrived.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The reason for the Metrodeckers was the impact of the Wright administration and the consequent impact on suppliers (e.g. those who were affected by Wright were also suppliers to Optare). However, the lead time for Solos has been extremely long for some time.

As regards the difference between sales of Solos vs Streetlites, when you compare the Solo against the Streetlite WF (which is the most valid comparison) then the Solo still wipes the floor with Wright.

 

[upasalmon]

No one has mentioned Optare's owner Ashok Leyland. Will they lose Interest? AL, or the Hinduja Group took on the firm when they were at death's door, and the Yorkshire factory is their only European outpost. I cannot see another management buy out in the current COVID climate.

 

[Jordan Adam]

As regards the difference between sales of Solos vs Streetlites, when you compare the Solo against the Streetlite WF (which is the most valid comparison) then the Solo still wipes the floor with Wright.

I'd agree, additionally in terms of quality of product the Solo excels - excuse the pun. However for any operator if they already have DF Streetlites it makes more sense to buy WF Streetlites over Solos. One of the things i never understood with Wright was why the Streetlite WF was offered with Voith only and the Streetvibe with Allison only, i suspect the Streetlite WF would've gained more sales had Allisons been an option. You just need to look at the Solo, pretty much all of them built now are Daimler/Allison. Even Stagecoach moved away (thankfully) from the awful Cummins/Voith set up that they ordered on their 2013 examples of which the performance can only be summed up as a "Streetlite on steroids".

That aside when it comes to the Solo i think it's biggest killer has been the Mercedes Sprinter, particularly the Mellor Strata bodied examples. For any operator it makes far more sense to go with the Strata, they're cheaper to run and can pretty much achieve double the MPG. The latest "Strata Ultra" model can seat 30 which is on par with a 8.5M Solo (the most common length), any operator looking for a bus that seats more than 30 is likely going to be more interesting in an Enviro200 rather than a "stretched" Solo with the turning circle of a container ship.

 

[markymark2000]

I'd say that the lead time is astronomical with Optate at the moment which puts people off and also i've been told that their aftercare is awful with buses coming back from Optare in a worse state than they went.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Quality Control seems to often be mentioned when it comes to Optare products

It's a strange one. The Solo is pretty much bomb proof, but the rest of Optare's more recent output hasn't been that reliable.

I think it does come down to price. ADL and Stagecoach are closely linked, and Stagecoach regularly shoving big orders through ADL can give ADL the efficiency of scale required to offer good deals even for smaller orders. If you're effectively adding a few buses for a small operator to the end of a big Stagecoach order you can offer good prices.

Optare can't offer those efficiencies so easily without a big order, but they won't get the big order without those efficiencies. Selling buses at a loss is a short route to bankruptcy.

 

[Beemax]

Very disappointing, particularly with regard to the Metrodecker. I once rode one of these on London's route 36 while on demo. It seemed to me much more solid than the usual E400MMCs which sometimes sound like 450 plastic mouldings in loose formation. I hope the York P&R works out well for them.

 

[MotCO]

I think it does come down to price. ADL and Stagecoach are closely linked, and Stagecoach regularly shoving big orders through ADL can give ADL the efficiency of scale required to offer good deals even for smaller orders.

Stagecoach is probably the biggest operator, but it is not the only one. Go-Ahead, Arriva, Natex, First, Transdev etc are not closely linked to ADL, but still seem to prefer ADL products. Wright is not linked to a single operator, but can still shift Streetlites and Streetdecks. Even though Wright was in difficulty last year, it does not seem to have dented their order book, when Optare should have been able to move in and boost their sales. Optare products don't seem to be too bad, but is their sales force and after sales support ineffective?

 

[markymark2000]

It's a strange one. The Solo is pretty much bomb proof, but the rest of Optare's more recent output hasn't been that reliable.

I think it does come down to price. ADL and Stagecoach are closely linked, and Stagecoach regularly shoving big orders through ADL can give ADL the efficiency of scale required to offer good deals even for smaller orders. If you're effectively adding a few buses for a small operator to the end of a big Stagecoach order you can offer good prices.

Optare can't offer those efficiencies so easily without a big order, but they won't get the big order without those efficiencies. Selling buses at a loss is a short route to bankruptcy.

It's worth point out that Transdev kept ordering Optare and kept ordering and so something must have happened for Transdev to move their loyalties to ADL. Reading pulling the plug on the Metrodeckers as well. Reading Buses weren't loyal to Optare but went for it and stuck at it but the delays there got too much. You could tell by the press release for it that the main issue was Optare and they kind of put Covid finances in there as a sweetener so it didn't look like Optare got the full blame.

 

[Non Multi]

It's worth point out that Transdev kept ordering Optare and kept ordering and so something must have happened for Transdev to move their loyalties to ADL. Reading pulling the plug on the Metrodeckers as well. Reading Buses weren't loyal to Optare but went for it and stuck at it but the delays there got too much. You could tell by the press release for it that the main issue was Optare and they kind of put Covid finances in there as a sweetener so it didn't look like Optare got the full blame.

Reading Transport made a loss pre-Covid.

 

[markymark2000]

Reading Transport made a loss pre-Covid.

That means nothing.
Quote from Reading Buses CEO noted in the Oxford and Chiltern Bus Blog https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/Weekly nr 115 - 310720.html

It is now over two years since the order for five Optare MetroDeckers for Green Line 702 was placed. A combination of ongoing production delays, an inability to provide a delivery schedule, mixed reviews regarding the demonstrator and our very difficult financial situation due to Covid-19 means that we have taken the decision to cancel the order.

I now refer you back to my original point that 'You could tell by the press release for it that the main issue was Optare and they kind of put Covid finances in there as a sweetener so it didn't look like Optare got the full blame.' If it was down to the finances, why would you even mention the faults at Optare?

 

[Non Multi]

That means nothing.
Quote from Reading Buses CEO noted in the Oxford and Chiltern Bus Blog https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/Weekly nr 115 - 310720.html

I now refer you back to my original point that 'You could tell by the press release for it that the main issue was Optare and they kind of put Covid finances in there as a sweetener so it didn't look like Optare got the full blame.' If it was down to the finances, why would you even mention the faults at Optare?

Due to their current financial position, RT aren't buying new vehicles from any manufacturer at the moment, or hiring new staff or apprentices. He explained the cancellation of this order, which is due to a number of issues, mainly with Optare, but not exclusively with Optare.

 

[scosutsut]

I actually can't see how they've survived as long as they have to be honest. Aging product line, poor reputation, quiet order book and struggle to make stuff.

It looks like it needs a lot of attention and financial investment to turn it around. I don't wish them unwell I just can't see it happening.

 

[richw]

Optare lead time from order to delivery is over 12 months.
As a driver I find the Solo SR superior Built quality to the ADL E200MMC. Far less rattles, nicer gearbox

 

[David Verity]

Doesn't seem that long since AH of Transdev was praising Optare to the rafters, informing the public of Burnley and Pendle that they were so lucky to be getting a new fleet of Versas - and now seem to have switched his allegiances to ADL

 

[upasalmon]

If Ashok Leyland pull the plug, or take Optares models to India that would be disaster in Sherburn in Elmet. The only other options are mergers with Bamford Wrightbus but it would mean the end for the Yorkshire factory which is only relatively new as Bamford would be reluctant to let Ballymena close. ADL couldn't buy Optare for monopoly reasons. European buyers might be put off by the mess of Brexit. Depressing.

.

 

[GusB]

If Ashok Leyland pull the plug, or take Optares models to India that would be disaster in Sherburn in Elmet. The only other options are mergers with Bamford Wrightbus but it would mean the end for the Yorkshire factory which is only relatively new as Bamford would be reluctant to let Ballymena close. ADL couldn't buy Optare for monopoly reasons. European buyers might be put off by the mess of Brexit. Depressing.

.

There's no reason why ADL couldn't buy Optare, really - I don't think there would be any serious concerns about them having a monopoly. Whether they'd want to is an entirely different matter, especially in light of the recent job cuts at ADL.

 

[scosutsut]

There's no reason why ADL couldn't buy Optare, really - I don't think there would be any serious concerns about them having a monopoly. Whether they'd want to is an entirely different matter, especially in light of the recent job cuts at ADL.

Agreed. ADL are proposing workforce reductions trying to coax UK Govt into placing the orders they have hinted they would to support the industry. I don't see what ADL could possibly gain from purchasing Optare.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed. ADL are proposing workforce reductions trying to coax UK Govt into placing the orders they have hinted they would to support the industry. I don't see what ADL could possibly gain from purchasing Optare.

Thirded. ADL has more than enough manufacturing capacity so why would they want to buy Optare; a business with a limited order book that they struggle to fulfill and with a design catalogue that is ageing and, aside from the Solo SR, isn't particularly popular.

 

[upasalmon]

I am NOT advocating this but all Bamford Wrightbus needs to buy is the Solo (StreetSolo?)and discontinue the WF Streetlite. But this would cause mass redundancies at Optare and I don't want to put skilled men out of work. Optare has been at deaths door twice so would never survive without a backer.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If Ashok Leyland pull the plug, or take Optares models to India that would be disaster in Sherburn in Elmet. The only other options are mergers with Bamford Wrightbus but it would mean the end for the Yorkshire factory which is only relatively new as Bamford would be reluctant to let Ballymena close. ADL couldn't buy Optare for monopoly reasons.

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What about if Optare merged with Plaxton and Plaxton renamed the entire operation as PlaxtonOptare? It could mean that deckers could be produced at one site and singles at the other.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What about if Optare merged with Plaxton and Plaxton renamed the entire operation as PlaxtonOptare? It could mean that deckers could be produced at one site and singles at the other.

Again....why? Why buy Optare? ADL have excess capacity between Falkirk and Scarborough anyway.

 

[markymark2000]

What about if Optare merged with Plaxton and Plaxton renamed the entire operation as PlaxtonOptare? It could mean that deckers could be produced at one site and singles at the other.

But Plaxton is owned by ADL.

 

[Robertj21a]

What about if Optare merged with Plaxton and Plaxton renamed the entire operation as PlaxtonOptare? It could mean that deckers could be produced at one site and singles at the other.

Not sure ADL would like to lose Plaxton !

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Again....why? Why buy Optare? ADL have excess capacity between Falkirk and Scarborough anyway.

There's got to be some cash in the factory equiptment, ADL / Plaxton / whoever picks the sellable products and ditches the rest of the Optare stuff.