Why is the Swiss public transport system so much better than the UK's?

[Gostav]

I think compared with a "continental system" such as Swiss Railway, UK Railways seems to be more worthy of benchmarking with Japanese Railways, which also is an independent island system.

 

[johncrossley]

3.NO EU

Why is this relevant?

Note that an other specific Swiss offer is also: local communes can buy daypasses from SBB and resell them at a little more to their own inhabitants-or sometimes even for a little more CHF to anyone

I've heard they are getting rid of those. They are not equitable as each municipality gets the same number of tickets regardless of population. So Zurich gets the same as a small town.

Indeed although that was just yes/no, with one of the options being the status quo and the other having nothing defined behind it. It was also advisory.

In Switzerland the deal would have been negotiated first at painstaking effort and then put to the vote as a fully costed proposal. This vote would then be binding.

The Swiss voted narrowly in a referendum to end free movement from the EU, but it was deemed impractical, so was eventually dropped. That shows they are capable of commonsense and don't blindly follow the outcome of referendums.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Done many times over the years, simply a marvellous country to travel around. But enjoy it while you are working, up to four years after retirement you can’t

So earlier this year I treated myself to a 15 day Swiss Travel Pass instead. For sad amusement I recorded the timekeeping of just over 100 trains I travelled on. PPM (0-5) came out at 98.6%, soured only by a fatality near Bern. Right time was actually comparatively low, around 60%, with those trains that failed right time around 1-3 minutes late, but you can’t grumble at that.

That said after the fatality we were waiting at Thun for a train and the only information available was on the Swiss Railway app. The platform indicators struggled to cope with the constantly changing situation. No staff visible, and many confused passengers as they aren’t used to Swiss Railways going wrong.

Aren’t the railways designed with huge amounts of slack anyways - so as to fit in with the Taktfahrplan (clockface timetable)?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yep, it's quite clever like that. "Think of a reasonable fare, double it then apply the half fare card discount".

The upsides of this are twofold. First of all you can charge a "tourist tax". Secondly, when you have bought your half fare card you're "invested" in it so are more likely to travel by rail to get value out of it. The Network Railcard was born out of a similar idea.

It’s a bit like what Tesco have recently done with Clubcard prices. They seem to have put their ordinary prices up but continue to charge the old lower prices as “Clubcard prices,” so everyone thinks Clubcards give you a great deal - they don’t, they just stop you paying the inflated price.

 

[306024]

Aren’t the railways designed with huge amounts of slack anyways - so as to fit in with the Taktfahrplan (clockface timetable)?

I wouldn’t say huge amounts, otherwise their right time figure would have been better for the trains I used, but yes it does appear that it’s not about shaving every last half minute off the schedule, with sufficient scope to recover from minor odd minute delays.

But just because they have a clockface timetable principle doesn‘t necessarily mean all trains are slackly timed though, in some cases timings have to be tighter to meet the same principle. Where the Swiss have an advantage is they appear to design the infrastructure to meet their timetable requirements.

For example consultation on the shape of their railway for 2050 is already underway. The emphasis is on enhancing the current network for future growth, rather than major projects. Perhaps more intensive use of existing routes could knock their performance figures, but at least they give themselves sufficient time to plan it thoroughly.

 

[Helenamuti]

Switzerland also uses rail transport to support other parts of the economy, or its broader policies. So for example, for many years tourism was supported with a ticket that for a fixed price transported tourists from entry into Switzerland to their destination. It was very easy to use, even if your plane was late or you needed to take a cable car or bus to get to your final destination.

Also, children travel free with parents or grandparents once you have bought the children’s railcard for 30CHF a year. There is even an after 7pm annual railcard for young people to encourage them to go out in the evening using public transport.

And at the other end of the economic spectrum, there was an integrated ticket that gave you first class travel plus use of an electric car at destination. It was expensive but cheaper than maintaining your own car. All of this however requires political will…

 

[Austriantrain]

I think compared with a "continental system" such as Swiss Railway, UK Railways seems to be more worthy of benchmarking with Japanese Railways, which also is an independent island system.

I don’t see why that should be the case, international trains are only a tiny percentage of the trains running in Switzerland.

I agree however that comparisons are unfair because of the size of the network and the country. The Swiss system can certainly not be exported 1:1 to a country like the UK.

Aren’t the railways designed with huge amounts of slack anyways - so as to fit in with the Taktfahrplan (clockface timetable)?

No.

 

[yorksrob]

Yep, it's quite clever like that. "Think of a reasonable fare, double it then apply the half fare card discount".

The upsides of this are twofold. First of all you can charge a "tourist tax". Secondly, when you have bought your half fare card you're "invested" in it so are more likely to travel by rail to get value out of it. The Network Railcard was born out of a similar idea.

Yes, although try explaining this to our lot over here !

 

[biko]

Germany, Netherlands and Austria are other federalised countries, and some would say Belgium is too.

The Netherlands are not a federalised country. The Netherlands just has provinces which are similar to counties in the UK. Belgium definitely is a federation of Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels.

 

[DanielB]

I don’t see why that should be the case, international trains are only a tiny percentage of the trains running in Switzerland.

However, they are fully integrated in the domestic network, running instead of a domestic IC service for example between Interlaken - Bern and Basel, or between Basel and Zürich.
Such an extensive integration is even rare in continental Europe, maybe the integration of Amsterdam - Berlin into the Amsterdam - Amersfoort IC services comes closest, although the main reason next to filling up the trains is to allow for a faster path.

Have spent last week in Switzerland myself and actually would say it compares with nothing else in Europe. Punctuality, regular service patterns, cleanliness of trains and especially how well local transport is being used are all things I haven't experienced at all elsewhere.
Some things, such as the regular pattern, you'd also find in the Netherlands for example. But there other aspects are worse or just less attention is given to it.

 

[dm1]

There are a number of interesting reasons why this is the case, and a lot of lessons that could be learnt for the British rail network as well, but it boils down to a broad public consensus that public transport has become a part of Swiss identity and that it is crucial for the Swiss economy, particularly in the mountainous regions where the railways provide the only reliable access, and where the scenic railways provide an enormous tourist attraction in and of themselves (to the point where in Graubünden even heritage trains on the RhB receive public subsidy from the canton and can be used with a standard public transport ticket)

To list a few factors that are particularly interesting from a UK perspective:

• A much simpler fare structure for over 90% of situations, that is fully integrated. Any public transport operator in Switzerland that doesn't cater exclusively to tourists is legally required to be integrated into the fares system, so that tickets can be purchased from any retailer for the same price. Most regular users will have a travelcard/season ticket meaning they don't have to think about tickets at all. Single tickets are either zone-based and time-limited local tickets, point-to-point longer distance tickets (break of journey allowed, take any or bus towards your destination), or advances (take a specific train only). Full single-leg pricing is implemented on longer distance tickets, and for zonal tickets a day ticket is normally exactly twice the price of a single. The point-to-point tickets are not priced extortionately, meaning advances are naturally limited to a reasonably price. Their function is to spread demand for those for whom flexibility is not necessary, but it's not a case of 'you have to buy one if you don't want to be ripped off' as is it often seems to be in the UK.
• Simultaneously, many special offers specifically targeted at various groups to encourage them to use public transport. The seven25 travelcard for example (that gives people under 25 free travel after 19:00 for a very, very low price) is specifically designed to discourage people that age from thinking about buying their first car, so that they get into the habit of using public transport and then continue doing so later in life. For non-regular public transport users there are regular special offers with Coop and the post, selling cheap day passes during the holidays, to encourage them to try it out. These day passes then also include a voucher for a half-fare card. Then there are Rail-Away tickets that give you a discount on the train ticket and on a tourist attraction if you travel there by public transport. That includes skiing in winter and hiking in summer. I could go on, but essentially they are very well targeted offers, that are very attractive and encourage public transport use. Switzerland's passenger numbers are already well above pre-covid levels in part because of this.
• The SwissPass is a public transport card that has a photo, a QR code, a barcode and two chips inside. It is used to store all travel cards in Switzerland. One chip is used for public transport tickets, the second for various other services, be that bike or car sharing, or ski passes (including those bought via Rail-Away). It can also be displayed on the SBB app if necessary. It is just very well designed, simple and makes ticket checks on trains/buses/trams very fast, since a large proportion of passengers will just need the card scanning.
• The operator of a public transport service almost nevery matters. Switzerland has a very large number of separate public transport operators, most of which are completely or majority-owned by some government entity, but for passengers, with very few exceptions, this has no real relevance. If you have ticket between two points, it doesn't matter whether the train you take belongs to SBB, BLS, SOB, or SZU, or even if it's a German ICE or a French TGV train within Switzerland.
• I'll finish with a big one - accessibility regulations. Switzerland has some very strict accessibility regulations the will come in to force in 2024, requiring autonomous and independent access for passengers in wheelchairs in almost all situations, with some limited exceptions where this is not possible for technical or financial reasons (e.g. tilting trains, a rural bus stop with 5 passengers/day). This means level boarding is slowly becoming universal on trains and also on many buses and trams. Where it isn't possible, an accessible alternative must be provided. The SBB app has been mentioned several times in this thread, but the SBB Inclusive app hasn't been yet. It duplicates the information on station screens and on-board PIS systems in a fully accessible format (in pretty much every imaginable way an app can be made accessible) and provides additional information about what carriage you are located in etc.

Swiss public transport isn't perfect, and I could write a similar post criticising various things that could and should be done better, but on the whole there is a lot that could be learnt, even without looking at the obvious big things (Takt, long-term planning, subsidies).

 

[miklcct]

To be honest no matter how good the Swiss system is, I don't want to learn from them.

The reason is because Switzerland is an expensive country to begin with! I definitely don't want to level up our cost of living to the Swiss level!

We should learn from those better systems where the cost of living is much lower than the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t see why that should be the case, international trains are only a tiny percentage of the trains running in Switzerland.

I agree however that comparisons are unfair because of the size of the network and the country. The Swiss system can certainly not be exported 1:1 to a country like the UK.

Most of its approaches could, at least within a TOC or region (e.g. Northern).

No.

Or yes. They do add quite a lot of intermediate padding which the UK doesn't.

The Netherlands are not a federalised country. The Netherlands just has provinces which are similar to counties in the UK. Belgium definitely is a federation of Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels.

Which is in many ways similar to England, Wales, NI and Scotland in its uncomfortable nature, but of course the UK is a not quite federal bodge.

 

[Starmill]

It’s a bit like what Tesco have recently done with Clubcard prices. They seem to have put their ordinary prices up but continue to charge the old lower prices as “Clubcard prices,” so everyone thinks Clubcards give you a great deal - they don’t, they just stop you paying the inflated price.

I think that most consumers realise that the likes of Go Outdoors, Tesco, Boots etc. 'member only' prices are just the normal prices. But what it really gives these companies is something more valuable, the data. They can chain together your purchases by forcing you to scan your card every time to get their normal prices. So perhaps the better way to see it is the higher prices on the shelves are the premium for paying with anonymity. The fact that there's often a large difference, as much as 20 - 30% on some items, goes to show just how valuable the data is to these companies.

It also comes with the advantage that when something goes on promotion now it goes on the exclusive price only. This means that in effect Tesco and others are achieving better segmentation, someone who doesn't care about the price and just wants the item quickly probably also doesn't care about the loyalty scheme. Therefore they get to sell a small number of units to them at their high margin price. Previously that customer would have paid the general offer price.

 

[Austriantrain]

Or yes. They do add quite a lot of intermediate padding which the UK doesn't.

They do add the recovery margins they need to make the timetable work, but in general, there is no exaggerated slack and very often, timetables are very tight.

Such an extensive integration is even rare in continental Europe, maybe the integration of Amsterdam - Berlin into the Amsterdam - Amersfoort IC services comes closest,

It’s not rare. Germany does it, Austria too, and many countries towards the East. It’s actually how international services should be done if you want them to work. There are not that many international flows where you can fill trains without carrying domestic traffic too.

 

[biko]

Which is in many ways similar to England, Wales, NI and Scotland in its uncomfortable nature, but of course the UK is a not quite federal bodge.

A federal country needs to be a federation of states/members which are or were independent. The constitution (written or not) needs to start from the premise that the members are the most important and proscribe what the federation can and cannot do. The members have the most power and transferred part of it to the federation. Members also should be equal.

The UK is a centralised country with some devolved powers but power certainly doesn’t come from the constituent countries, but from the top. In federations it’s the other way around.

Belgium is of course a bit weird, but could be seen as a federation nowadays as the regions have power over everything unless the federal government has.

To get to the topic: I don’t believe this has much influence on the quality of PT.

 

[johncrossley]

There was a time when trains to Milan were very unreliable, so SBB timetabled on a duplicate IC train within a few minutes of the international train so that domestic travellers weren't inconvenienced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was a time when trains to Milan were very unreliable, so SBB timetabled on a duplicate IC train within a few minutes of the international train so that domestic travellers weren't inconvenienced.

If you mean Brig to Geneva that was never part of the Takt and was laid on top. However in some cases they do keep a set and crew ready to drop an "Ersatzzug" in.

 

[johncrossley]

If you mean Brig to Geneva that was never part of the Takt and was laid on top. However in some cases they do keep a set and crew ready to drop an "Ersatzzug" in.

I meant Zurich to Milan via the Gotthard route. Here is an extract from the 2010 timetable (from https://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/fileadmin/fap_pdf_fields/2010/600.pdf)

Nowadays, the Zurich to Milan train is fully integrated into the timetable.

 

[AdamWW]

They do add the recovery margins they need to make the timetable work, but in general, there is no exaggerated slack and very often, timetables are very tight.



It’s not rare. Germany does it, Austria too, and many countries towards the East. It’s actually how international services should be done if you want them to work. There are not that many international flows where you can fill trains without carrying domestic traffic too.

There's a difference between international trains carrying domestic passengers (as is of course usually the case in Europe) and an international train taking the place of a domestic one in a fixed interval timetable, which is I think what was originally being referred to.

Of course for this to be meaningful the railway has to be operating a fixed interval timetable in the first place.

 

[Austriantrain]

There's a difference between international trains carrying domestic passengers (as is of course usually the case in Europe) and an international train taking the place of a domestic one in a fixed interval timetable, which is I think what was originally being referred to.

This is an artificial and - with all due respect - useless distinction. In Germany as in Austria, international trains are part of the domestic Takt and wholly integrated. Whether every single train of a Takt line crosses a border, or only one in every two or every four is really besides the point. In these two countries, international services are organized the same way as in Switzerland.

 

[Hadrian]

SBB is often ready to insert an extra train into its regular interval timetable to replace a delayed international train - a not uncommon occurence. Quite often the delayed international train is terminated short of planned destination to enable it to pick up its next/return working on time. The SBB extra train will often then work part of the return leg of the international train and connect with the international train at its revised starting point.

A significant difficulty with the SBB regular interval timetable is that the connections are often too tight for inexperienced passengers (be they foriegn visitors or infrequent swiss travellers). For example - in the past the fast Gotthard trains overtook the slows at Arth-Goldau. Many passengers needed to change trains because each hour one of the trains came from Basel and the other came from Zurich. Regular passengers knew how little time they had to change and where they needed to get to to board. I have seen plenty of folk getting left behind!

 

[dm1]

Nowadays, the Zurich to Milan train is fully integrated into the timetable.

Standard practice is for a double unit to run domestically with one unit continuing on to Italy. In the reverse direction, the single unit from Italy couples on to the 'domestic' unit and contiues as one train domestically. If the inbound train from Italy is late (which is far from a rare occurence, particularly for trains from further out than Milan), then the 'domestic' unit travels on its own, on time, and the international unit travels on independently whenever it decides to show up.

A significant difficulty with the SBB regular interval timetable is that the connections are often too tight for inexperienced passengers (be they foriegn visitors or infrequent swiss travellers). For example - in the past the fast Gotthard trains overtook the slows at Arth-Goldau. Many passengers needed to change trains because each hour one of the trains came from Basel and the other came from Zurich. Regular passengers knew how little time they had to change and where they needed to get to to board. I have seen plenty of folk getting left behind!

Currently that change is cross-platform, so there aren't really any time challenges there. I think there's a 7 minute dwell too. A lot of thought goes in to making the connection times shorter. That's also why you'll often see that even comparitively small stations may have multiple subways to get between platforms. It is far more expensive to upgrade a line so that a train arrives a minute earlier, than it is to build an extra subway so that the connection time between trains can be made a minute faster.

Note: That's also a reason why there are generally subways rather than bridges. Bridges require a much larger difference in height (since you need clearance for a double decker train + OLE rather than just a person), so getting up and down them takes longer, which increases interchange times. That and the fact that stations are often on embankments and it makes a lot more sense to build a subway so that it integrates into the town/city it's serving much better.

 

[AdamWW]

This is an artificial and - with all due respect - useless distinction. In Germany as in Austria, international trains are part of the domestic Takt and wholly integrated. Whether every single train of a Takt line crosses a border, or only one in every two or every four is really besides the point. In these two countries, international services are organized the same way as in Switzerland.

Maybe.

Personally I see a distinction between a clockface domestic timetable where some of the trains extend as an international journey, and a clockface timetable where international trains run in addition (and possibly with different stopping patterns).

As for a whether it's a useful distinction or not - as mentioned above delays in other countries put the domestic clockface service at risk in one scenario and not the other.

 

[Austriantrain]

Standard practice is for a double unit to run domestically with one unit continuing on to Italy. In the reverse direction, the single unit from Italy couples on to the 'domestic' unit and contiues as one train domestically. If the inbound train from Italy is late (which is far from a rare occurence, particularly for trains from further out than Milan), then the 'domestic' unit travels on its own, on time, and the international unit travels on independently whenever it decides to show up.

Don’t get me wrong: I love Swiss railways and would more than wish Austrian railways would be as good (although we have improved a lot).

But what is being described here is normal practice in a lot of places where international services have an important role.

Munich - Vienna (- Budapest) railjet services get coupled to a Bregenz - Vienna set in Salzburg. When one of the two has a more than slight delay, it is very common for the two sets to run to Vienna separately. It is however dependent on having an additional driver available in Salzburg; it usually works out though.

On the other hand, Vienna - Zurich trains will rarely or never have a replacement service on the Swiss side when they arrive late at the border, since these trains don’t have an important domestic role in Switzerland and there are alternatives available.

What the Swiss have to perfection is flexibility and pragmatism, whereas SNCF for example survives on dogmas. Thankfully, most of Central Europe looks towards the Swiss to see how to do it.

One *major* specificity in Switzerland not mentioned here yet: Takt services have, in timetable planning, absolute legal priority over everything else. It’s one of the major reasons everything works out.

Maybe.

Personally I see a distinction between a clockface domestic timetable where some of the trains extend as an international journey, and a clockface timetable where international trains run in addition (and possibly with different stopping patterns).

You can differentiate if you want, but the fact remains that in Austria and Germany, international trains *are*, just as in Switzerland, integrated into the domestic Takt. So Switzerland is far from unique in this regard.

(There are exceptions of course, in Switzerland as in all other countries mentioned).

 

[nw1]

This is an artificial and - with all due respect - useless distinction. In Germany as in Austria, international trains are part of the domestic Takt and wholly integrated. Whether every single train of a Takt line crosses a border, or only one in every two or every four is really besides the point. In these two countries, international services are organized the same way as in Switzerland.

I've definitely noticed this in that part of Europe (between 2009-14). IC networks appear to consist of clockface "segments" connecting "nodes" (big city Hauptbahnhof stations, typically). However, the ongoing destination after the "node" isn't necessarily consistent each hour. So you might have a clockface hourly service from A-B, but some hours the train might continue to C and other hours, to D. Likewise, the segment B-C would also have a clockface hourly service, but while in some hours the train originates from A, in other hours it might originate from E.

Such a pattern is a nice trade-off between regular clockface timetables and variable destinations, allowing a range of through destinations throughout the day, with the journey still possible with a change in the hours there is no through service.

We don't seem to go for this kind of pattern in the UK, for whatever reason.

 

[AdamWW]

You can differentiate if you want,

And indeed I shall.

but the fact remains that in Austria and Germany, international trains *are*, just as in Switzerland, integrated into the domestic Takt. So Switzerland is far from unique in this regard.

I'm very happy to believe that. I don't know the timetables well enough to have an opinion one way or another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don't seem to go for this kind of pattern in the UK, for whatever reason.

While it's been pruned somewhat over the years, isn't that exactly what XC do, or at least did? Plus the Avanti services to Shrewsbury and Holyhead, and the LNER Chieftain and Aberdonian which are extended Edinburghs?

On a more local level, the Barrow and Windermere services, too?

 

[Austriantrain]

And indeed I shall.

My reaction probably was due to the fact that some things that are found surprising on the forum are just so normal where I come from. Sorry about that!

 

[AdamWW]

My reaction probably was due to the fact that some things that are found surprising on the forum are just so normal where I come from. Sorry about that!

Nothing to apologise for. It would be dull if we all agreed with each other about everything.