Why were the Deltics retired and not cascaded?

[paul1609]

But they're probably equal on power to original Deltic engine? Around 1600hp in a 73/9, I believe. Expect they can be made to produce more? Purely hyperthetical conversion anyway but with modern electronic control and alternators would be quite a machine? Fuel consumption would be much less also?

Or you could go for a MTU/Deltic hybrid Deltic . Only flash up the Deltic when you need high power or for idling next to enthusiasts that way you could conserve the remaining deltic engine hours plus you'd have the removed deltic as a spare. 1600hp would probably be sufficient for most summer rail tours? What speed does a class 55 reach on one engine?

 

[DB]

The HST wasn't double headed per se, but essentially the equivalent

They effectively took the Deltic concept and put half at each end of the train! Bigger engines too, of course.

 

[43096]

Not sure, but Paxman offered a 3,000hp engine which would have, to be retro-fitted into the HST power cars but BR decided not to take then up on the infer.

There was space in the prototype HST power cars for the V16 Valenta. By the time the production batch was built BR believed that the V12 was powerful enough for 7 and 8 car sets, so all were built with V12s and there wasn’t space left to uprate to V16. Given the transfers of power cars since, that standardisation on one engine size was a good thing.

 

[DB]

There was space in the prototype HST power cars for the V16 Valenta. By the time the production batch was built BR believed that the V12 was powerful enough for 7 and 8 car sets, so all were built with V12s and there wasn’t space left to uprate to V16. Given the transfers of power cars since, that standardisation on one engine size was a good thing.

What's the space used for in the production ones (I assume prototype and production power cars are more or less the same length)?

 

[Journeyman]

The HST wasn't double headed per se, but essentially the equivalent

Well, sort of, but the way it was done of course had another major benefit - elimination of running round. I'm not sure how reliability or fuel consumption compared, although I suspect both were better. The fact that the prototype HST appeared only about 12/13 years after the Deltics shows how quickly technology developed around that time - not only was there a major jump in performance, but the passenger experience was transformed too. I think the writing was on the wall for the Deltics as soon as the prototype HST took to the rails, and was proven to work extremely well.

 

[hexagon789]

There was space in the prototype HST power cars for the V16 Valenta. By the time the production batch was built BR believed that the V12 was powerful enough for 7 and 8 car sets, so all were built with V12s and there wasn’t space left to uprate to V16. Given the transfers of power cars since, that standardisation on one engine size was a good thing.

While I agree that my deciding to go with uprated 2,500hp power cars on the 2+8 sets wholes till having 2,250hp on the other sets was sensible, having more powerful engines uniformly across the fleet might not have been such a bad idea if the fuel consumption was not detrimentally higher.

 

[43096]

While I agree that my deciding to go with uprated 2,500hp power cars on the 2+8 sets wholes till having 2,250hp on the other sets was sensible, having more powerful engines uniformly across the fleet might not have been such a bad idea if the fuel consumption was not detrimentally higher.

Don’t forget they were being built during the 1970s oil crisis and in any case their performance was vastly superior to any other diesel at the time in terms of acceleration, braking and top speed. We shouldn’t be judging them against (say) the 22x fleets now, but against what they replaced at the time.

 

[kermit]

So that a rather amazing proportion of them could be bought for preservation, before the grind of semi fast services and more rust got to them?

 

[JohnElliott]

Or you could go for a MTU/Deltic hybrid Deltic . Only flash up the Deltic when you need high power or for idling next to enthusiasts that way you could conserve the remaining deltic engine hours plus you'd have the removed deltic as a spare. 1600hp would probably be sufficient for most summer rail tours? What speed does a class 55 reach on one engine?

Or replace one of the Deltics with a traction battery and you've got a hybrid.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Don’t forget they were being built during the 1970s oil crisis and in any case their performance was vastly superior to any other diesel at the time in terms of acceleration, braking and top speed. We shouldn’t be judging them against (say) the 22x fleets now, but against what they replaced at the time.

Indeed. Fortunately the ECML did get electrified. I had a few thousand miles behind those beasts just as the HSTs were starting to take over. Looks like their successors the IC225s will not be cascaded either.

 

[DB]

Indeed. Fortunately the ECML did get electrified. I had a few thousand miles behind those beasts just as the HSTs were starting to take over. Looks like their successors the IC225s will not be cascaded either.

A good few Mk4s have been scrapped already, plus some cascaded to Wales and Grand Central. Doesn't look so far to be any long-term interest in the 91s (in this country, at least), although none have been scrapped so far as I'm aware.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As a class, I am sure no other class I can think of has such a high percentage that have been saved and preserved. (Aside from things like Class 01 where I think 1 is preserved and therefor the survival rate is 50%)

 

[hexagon789]

As a class, I am sure no other class I can think of has such a high percentage that have been saved and preserved. (Aside from things like Class 01 where I think 1 is preserved and therefor the survival rate is 50%)

Class 50?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You are correct. 6 out of 22 deltics preserved = 27% whereas Class 50 18/50 = 36% - wow that is alot.

 

[hexagon789]

You are correct. 6 out of 22 deltics preserved = 27% whereas Class 50 18/50 = 36% - wow that is alot.

I knew there were six preserved Deltics out of 22, but something said to me there were about sixteen Class 50s, so I was nearly there.

I believe that if certain preservation projects had turned out more positively, we'd actually have more than 20 preserved 50s.

 

[Kingspanner]

I think I am right in saying that the Deltics were among the first successful modernisation plan diesels to be withdrawn (but after the even more non-standard diesel-hydraulics). I remember the DPS magazine Deltic Deadline trying to raise (in 1981) the unthinkably large sum of £15,000 to buy one from the scrap line at Doncaster. Of course 55002 was off to an uncertain future at the NRM.
By the time the 50s were being withdrawn the diesel preservation movement was in better shape, but they must also have been in good shape if 18 were fit for preservation.

 

[hexagon789]

I think I am right in saying that the Deltics were among the first successful modernisation plan diesels to be withdrawn (but after the even more non-standard diesel-hydraulics). I remember the DPS magazine Deltic Deadline trying to raise (in 1981) the unthinkably large sum of £15,000 to buy one from the scrap line at Doncaster. Of course 55002 was off to an uncertain future at the NRM.
By the time the 50s were being withdrawn the diesel preservation movement was in better shape, but they must also have been in good shape if 18 were fit for preservation.

Regarding the 50s, there was a project set up to encourage young people to go into engineering which purchased a number, though it sadly went under before successfully restoring any I believe. They alone purchased about eight or something.

 

[xotGD]

Regarding the 50s, there was a project set up to encourage young people to go into engineering which purchased a number, though it sadly went under before successfully restoring any I believe. They alone purchased about eight or something.

Operation Collingwood, iirc.

 

[hexagon789]

Operation Collingwood, iirc.

Yes, that sounds like it. Would've been quite something if it had succeeded in accomplishing its aims.

Come to think of it, imagine if a similar project had existed and succeeded with the Deltics - might easily have ten or twelve of them then!

 

[Kingspanner]

Wasn't one of the preserved Deltics partly "rebuilt" by ICI apprentices at Wilton?

 

[DB]

Operation Collingwood, iirc.

Not all of them survived after it folded, though.

The 50s were quite unusual in that they were primarily passenger locos and had a big following. There aren't many others where this applies, and they were the last BR mixed-traffic diesel class to be built - there was nothng after that until the 67s.

Don't think there are any newer classes of diesel where there is likely to be anything like the preservation interest - e.g. 56s and 58s are very much a niche interest, and I'm not aware of anyone seriously planning to preserve a 60, although of course it might happen with the odd one or two.

 

[LOL The Irony]

and I'm not aware of anyone seriously planning to preserve a 60, although of course it might happen with the odd one or two.

It's already happened with the odd 1 or 2. 50 & 86 are preserved at Wensleydale and 81 has been preserved by LSL at their museum in Margate.

 

[DB]

It's already happened with the odd 1 or 2. 50 & 86 are preserved at Wensleydale and 81 has been preserved by LSL at their museum in Margate.

As I understand it, 81 is a wreck internally and it's just being cosmetically restored. Are the two at Wensleydale runners?

 

[AndyCK]

Wasn't one of the preserved Deltics partly "rebuilt" by ICI apprentices at Wilton?

D9009 (55009) had an overhaul at ICI Wilton in the 90's:

A major overhaul at ICI Wilton, lasting almost eight years and one of the most comprehensive overhauls carried out to any preserved diesel locomotive to date, was completed on D9009 Alycidon in 1998 prior to the loco returning to the main line.

ABOUT US | Deltic

www.thedps.co.uk

 

[E27007]

A comment passed around many years ago, was that in a side to side comparison between a Deltic and a 47 for overall operating costs including overhaul, when the side by side numbers were calculated as an ownership and operating cost per hour, the figure for a 47 was lower than a Detic, but on cost per mile the Deltic figure was lower than a 47. If that is more than an urban myth, then a Deltic will prosper on long-distance high-speed intensive workings, ie the ECML, and therefore it is hard to justify cascading a Deltic to less demanding work

 

[edwin_m]

A comment passed around many years ago, was that in a side to side comparison between a Deltic and a 47 for overall operating costs including overhaul, when the side by side numbers were calculated as an ownership and operating cost per hour, the figure for a 47 was lower than a Detic, but on cost per mile the Deltic figure was lower than a 47. If that is more than an urban myth, then a Deltic will prosper on long-distance high-speed intensive workings, ie the ECML, and therefore it is hard to justify cascading a Deltic to less demanding work

The Deltics were intensively worked on high-mileage diagrams. If you did the same with a sub-fleet of 47s (as Scotrail sort of did with the push-pulls) then the cost per mile would also go down. You might also find they didn't last any longer than the Deltics.

 

[randyrippley]

The Deltics were intensively worked on high-mileage diagrams. If you did the same with a sub-fleet of 47s (as Scotrail sort of did with the push-pulls) then the cost per mile would also go down. You might also find they didn't last any longer than the Deltics.

in reality the 47/7 fleet were hammered almost to death on the Scots services......and then they got killed off on Waterloo-Exeter

 

[DB]

in reality the 47/7 fleet were hammered almost to death on the Scots services......and then they got killed off on Waterloo-Exeter

Several of them still around! One rebuilt as a 57.

 

[silverfoxcc]

When i was visiting my future wife in Edinburgh on a fortnightly basis ( my mate said'That isn't a girl friend.. that's a pen pal!!) She did the alternate weeks down here ( not only that her return ticket was cheaper than mine!!) We both cleared haulage of all 22. She was also on the inaugural Silver Jubilee and still has the commemorative thingy!!. I have cine of the up arrival at KX that night. I think our son also managed all of them as well ,but i wasn't into number taking at the time.. He has also done the APT from Glasgow to Preston. Once i realised i had cleared all, i decided to try and leave every London Termini to Edinburgh ( The only Southern one contemplated was Waterloo, but as i would have joined the Paddington route at Reading i gave that a miss. So Paddington Via Birmingham Derby Sheffield York and birmingham Wolverhampton Crewe Euston Via Manchester Carlisle and WCML to Glasgow and Queen St ... St Pancras Sheffield S+C Carstairs and the Kilmarnock route L Street March Spalding Boston Lincoln Doncaster And all for 19.00 weekend return IIRC Great Haulage and variations All gone nowadays have to use certain trains or it costs a mint. So we fly up Business Quicker and less hassle Esp as both ends are the airport sides of London and Edinburgh.. Best time was leaving Bracknell at 09.00 and having Luhch in an Edinburgh City pub at 12.00 Would be lucky to be at KX by 10.30 nowadays!!

 

[JohnElliott]

Or replace one of the Deltics with a traction battery and you've got a hybrid.

I was amused to see in Roger Ford's latest Informed Sources e-preview:

Meanwhile there is plenty to do at the desk. While I have published several previews of the on-going interim conclusions of Network Rail’s Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy, the full 250-page version has now been published, with much more detail to absorb and analyse.

Alternative traction - battery and fuel cell power - is still seen as a substitute for electrification rather than an adjunct. To put across the limitations in an easily grasped but fun way, I am designing the ‘Alternative Traction Deltic’ with the weight and space of the engines and fuel tank available for battery packs or fuel cell stacks and hydrogen cylinders.