Will Lincoln ever have better train services?

[Yew]

Sorry for my last post, can you tell I was really annoyed?

Its true what you say about freight (mainly coal/oil) however Living around lincoln ive never seen more that a few freight trains a day going through the city (but they could come on later, there is a junction just after gainsborough) And i suppose the freight company could have bought all available paths, to give them maximum design flexibility.

Should I try writing a letter to the MP for Lincoln? Im sure if I made frequent mentions of how pacers not crashworthy, are Uncomfortable and cramped. And then compared the stock around lincoln to a similar sized city in the south (ideally one with brand new electrics) I could get Him shouting at somebody. Maybe comparing the age of rail stock, to that of busses (as our train driver riends assure me that driving a train is a much more skilled job than a bus driver, surely they should have better equipment to minimise risks to the citizens of lincoln?)

Apologies for the rant

 

[tbtc]

The trains as currently run as at the present time offer both of these options of a regular service to Sheffield commuters and holidaymakers. No-one is disputing this fact. Are you saying that certain Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport services should terminate at Manchester Piccadilly to avoid reversal and to make for a quicker turnround in the journey times?

I have heard many comments concerning the importance to people living in the Doncaster and Scunthorpe areas for the current service pattern of the existing First TPE South route to be retained. With regard to the final sentence that you made, if this is the case, why are the train loadings at the levels that they are?

Manchester Airport has a vigourous marketing strategy to attract as many people as possible to fly from its airport with its two runways and the current provision of rail services fits nicely within its strategy. In the Northern Hub document, there is mention of a fourth platform there.

I see no call for any reduction of the number of National Express coaches that operate into Manchester Airport interchange, that carry high loadings.

There's certainly some demand to get to Manchester Airport. The problem is that if we keep up the current plans (with Barrow/ Blackpool/ Southport/ Liverpool/ Middlesbrough/ Cleethorpes etc all having regular direct services to the Airport) then we limit the flexibility of improving services around Manchester.

For example, at the moment Blackpool, Southport and St Helens (Junction) all have two trains an hour to Manchester. One to Victoria and one to Piccadilly (which runs to the Airport). Logically you'd say that it'd be easier for passengers to have all their services departing from the same station in central Manchester (and they can change at Salford/ Bolton etc if they want to use the other one).

The Airport also limits the number of "cross Manchester" services. Back in the day we had some direct trains from Sheffield to Blackpool. But now we have Sheffield - Manchester Airport and Manchester Airport - Blackpool.

I'm not against direct services to the Airport, but they don't need to be hourly from most towns.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry for my last post, can you tell I was really annoyed?

Its true what you say about freight (mainly coal/oil) however Living around lincoln ive never seen more that a few freight trains a day going through the city (but they could come on later, there is a junction just after gainsborough) And i suppose the freight company could have bought all available paths, to give them maximum design flexibility.

Should I try writing a letter to the MP for Lincoln? Im sure if I made frequent mentions of how pacers not crashworthy, are Uncomfortable and cramped. And then compared the stock around lincoln to a similar sized city in the south (ideally one with brand new electrics) I could get Him shouting at somebody. Maybe comparing the age of rail stock, to that of busses (as our train driver riends assure me that driving a train is a much more skilled job than a bus driver, surely they should have better equipment to minimise risks to the citizens of lincoln?)

Apologies for the rant

sheff'd victoria's email to Northern was asking them about the possibility of a service from Lincoln to Sheffield at half ten at night (by extending a Sheffield - Retford service to Lincoln).

Nothing to do with the crashworthyness of trains versus buses, freight trains or how cramped Pacers are.

As I've said before, I don't think there'll be demand for a late night train back from Lincoln, I think the costs would far outwigh the revenue. But thats just my opinion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's certainly some demand to get to Manchester Airport. I'm not against direct services to the Airport, but they don't need to be hourly from most towns.

I accept your reasoning and understand all the points that you have made. I am a realist and since a Senior Manager at Manchester Airport is a close neghbour in our tiny community, he never tires of telling me of how rail traffic from as many places as possible is a critical matter to the airport in keeping up the airport passenger loading figures. To him, rail or road are just methods of transporting intending flight passengers to and from the airport.

I trust that you will understand my reasons for posting this clarification.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some things I don't think I will ever understand about the Lincoln services, for example the Grimsby - Newark route could be improved with its existing stock. But as with all armchair ideas, I have no idea how realistic this is as I don't know what other services are on the lines.

Newark Northgate 1050, Lincoln arr 1115 dpt 1113, Market Rasen 1129, Barnetby 1145, Habrough 1153, Grimsby Town 1206. This would connect out of the 0930 ex London

Grimsby Town 1251, Habrough 1301, Barnetby 1309, Market Rasen 1325, Lincoln arr 1343 1345, Newark Northgate 1410, which would connect with the 1417 service to London.

Running this every other hour would use the 2 units the line has, it would not need to be on platform 3 at the hours that the terminator is and would be an improvement. The dwell times at both Newark and Grimsby are enough to flex should it be felt a 15 minute connection is better for passengers. At the moment this lines timetable has not really altered to take advantage of the new clockface service.

Trains from Grimsby could be at
0551 (to Lincoln only), 0651, 0851, 1051, 1251, 1451, 1651, 1851, 2051

Trains from Newark at
0513, (From Lincoln) 0713 (from Lincoln only), 850, 1050, 1250, 1450, 1650, 1850, 2050

 

[YorkshireBear]

Lincoln arr 1115 dpt 1113,

i presume this is a typo

if not that is very skillful timetabling and would be interested to see how it works

 

[Failed Unit]

i presume this is a typo

if not that is very skillful timetabling and would be interested to see how it works

The arrival is the working timetable, the departure is the public

Good spot.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

sheff'd victoria's email to Northern was asking them about the possibility of a service from Lincoln to Sheffield at half ten at night (by extending a Sheffield - Retford service to Lincoln).

Nothing to do with the crashworthyness of trains versus buses, freight trains or how cramped Pacers are.

As I've said before, I don't think there'll be demand for a late night train back from Lincoln, I think the costs would far outwigh the revenue. But thats just my opinion.

They could re-time the service to leave Sheffield Midland at XX14 passed each hour instead of XX46 , this would mean it would leave Lincoln at XX57 instead of XX27 , the last train would be 2157 which would be slightly better

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The arrival is the working timetable, the departure is the public

I have seen this explanation confuse some passengers who think the printed timetables issued by the TOC are the ONLY true departure and arrival times. It also happens with bus companies.

 

[YorkshireBear]

We should go to sleep, im in top floor of my halls and i can see the sun rising

They could re-time the service to leave Sheffield Midland at XX14 passed each hour instead of XX46 , this would mean it would leave Lincoln at XX57 instead of XX27 , the last train would be 2157 which would be slightly better

thats actually a good idea, but would that affect the morning services?

 

[Lincoln]

Some things I don't think I will ever understand about the Lincoln services, for example the Grimsby - Newark route could be improved with its existing stock. But as with all armchair ideas, I have no idea how realistic this is as I don't know what other services are on the lines.

Newark Northgate 1050, Lincoln arr 1115 dpt 1113, Market Rasen 1129, Barnetby 1145, Habrough 1153, Grimsby Town 1206. This would connect out of the 0930 ex London

Grimsby Town 1251, Habrough 1301, Barnetby 1309, Market Rasen 1325, Lincoln arr 1343 1345, Newark Northgate 1410, which would connect with the 1417 service to London.

Running this every other hour would use the 2 units the line has, it would not need to be on platform 3 at the hours that the terminator is and would be an improvement. The dwell times at both Newark and Grimsby are enough to flex should it be felt a 15 minute connection is better for passengers. At the moment this lines timetable has not really altered to take advantage of the new clockface service.

Trains from Grimsby could be at
0551 (to Lincoln only), 0651, 0851, 1051, 1251, 1451, 1651, 1851, 2051

Trains from Newark at
0513, (From Lincoln) 0713 (from Lincoln only), 850, 1050, 1250, 1450, 1650, 1850, 2050

If there was even just one extra 15x available it would make the world of difference to the Grimsby to Newark line. How it operates at the moment is that trains are running between at least Grimsby to Lincoln during marginal time, this is when the units aren't being used on other services. So the timetabling is constrained by that. Between Lincoln to Newark during the morning a service now runs hourly, then drops to roughly two hourly for the afternoon.

The current morning pattern is roughly a train to run Grimsby-Lincoln-Newark-Lincoln-Newark-Lincoln-Grimsby. One of these units is then lost as on its return from Newark to Lincoln it continues to Peterborough, with the balancing unit from Peterborough continuing to Doncaster.

The unit which is lost to Peterborough is replaced by the next arrival from Peterborough, which then waits for a bit before going to Grimsby.

The Peterborough pattern of services are such at present to keep a fairly even spread of services during the lines opening hours between Sleaford and Spalding, and so cannot be realistically re-timed. The unit for afternoon commuter from Lincoln to Grimsby is formed by an arrival from Doncaster (itself another route furnished by units in marginal time).

I think the status quo will probably remain whilst those in DfT continue to ignore the existence of Market Rasen, as they are under the illusion that "most" of the stations are already pretty well served by Northern on the Barton service, and Transpennine on the southern route. Of course just having a regular service at a station doesn't make it useful if it doesn't go where you need it, such as Lincoln or Newark!

 

[SuperOwl86]

They could re-time the service to leave Sheffield Midland at XX14 passed each hour instead of XX46 , this would mean it would leave Lincoln at XX57 instead of XX27 , the last train would be 2157 which would be slightly better

Dont think XX14 would work due to the Leeds stopper via Bolton-on-Dearn sure its hard to re time this service due to it being over taken by xx21 XC service.

The only times i could think would be any good would be it leaving around XX00 or XX30 at those times dont think there is anything going through the tunnels.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Dont think XX14 would work due to the Leeds stopper via Bolton-on-Dearn sure its hard to re time this service due to it being over taken by xx21 XC service.

The only times i could think would be any good would be it leaving around XX00 or XX30 at those times dont think there is anything going through the tunnels.

XX30 would be better then however knowing " Northern " the last train would leave to Lincoln 1930 instead of a later train of 2030

I still think the key is EMT have some of the services on this route ,the route is crying out in the summer for a Nottingham - Skegness via Worksop & Nottingham - Cleethorpes via Worksop/Gainsborough

 

[tbtc]

XX30 would be better then however knowing " Northern " the last train would leave to Lincoln 1930 instead of a later train of 2030

I still think the key is EMT have some of the services on this route ,the route is crying out in the summer for a Nottingham - Skegness via Worksop & Nottingham - Cleethorpes via Worksop/Gainsborough

If it wasn't for Meadowhall, I'd give the whole route to EMT right away.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

thats actually a good idea, but would that affect the morning services?

Depends what time the services were timed to leave Lincoln

If it wasn't for Meadowhall, I'd give the whole route to EMT right away.

Why Meadowhall ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why Meadowhall ?

I think he means there is rather an obvious reason. Ask him to clarify it, if you feel you must.

 

[Tomnick]

Presumably SYPTE's requirement for most Lincoln services to call at Meadowhall - the only reasonable means of achieving that is to operate the Lincolns as through trains from elsewhere north/east of Sheffield.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Presumably SYPTE's requirement for most Lincoln services to call at Meadowhall - the only reasonable means of achieving that is to operate the Lincolns as through trains from elsewhere north/east of Sheffield.

This would explain why services were either Adwick-Lincoln or before Huddersfield - Lincoln with the god damm awful 142 railbus as the unit

 

[tbtc]

Presumably SYPTE's requirement for most Lincoln services to call at Meadowhall - the only reasonable means of achieving that is to operate the Lincolns as through trains from elsewhere north/east of Sheffield.

Yup. As I understand it SYPTE want a link from the Todwick/Wales/ Kiveton area of "South Rotherham" to Meadowhall, which is why Lincoln services have run to/from Huddersfield/ Adwick/Scunthorpe in recent years (since these trains run via Meadowhall on the line out of Sheffield).

As far as I know this is only for the one train an hour, so (for example) if the service became

• Sheffield - All Stops - Worksop (possibly onto Mansfield/Nottingham?)
• Sheffield - Semi Fast - Lincoln

...then only the former service would need to run to/from Meadowhall.

 

[anthony263]

Any chance of extending crosscountry's Cardiff - Nottingham service to Lincoln? if they have enough class 170/voyagers?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yup. As I understand it SYPTE want a link from the Todwick/Wales/ Kiveton area of "South Rotherham" to Meadowhall, which is why Lincoln services have run to/from Huddersfield/ Adwick/Scunthorpe in recent years (since these trains run via Meadowhall on the line out of Sheffield).

As far as I know this is only for the one train an hour, so (for example) if the service became

• Sheffield - All Stops - Worksop (possibly onto Mansfield/Nottingham?)
• Sheffield - Semi Fast - Lincoln

...then only the former service would need to run to/from Meadowhall.

I like your idea fo transferring it to EMT (maybe with the odd 153 to help provide services? ).

But would running the service to continue to meadowhall and terminate in p4 be any good. Capacity isn't large between sheffield and meadowhall but i have been to meadowhall and there is large gaps in service. So maybe terminating it in Bi-directional P4 would work.

 

[trentside]

Were the Lincoln to Sheffield services to go over to EMT, it might also be a good opportunity to improve the Lincoln to Gainsborough timetable, rather than the present situation where Sheffield and Doncaster trains run closely spaced at some times.

It could also be possible to project the Sheffield services onwards to Grimsby or Peterborough to improve services over those lines.

The only issue (in this idealised world we're creating!) could be the Brigg line, who would run that?

 

[tbtc]

Were the Lincoln to Sheffield services to go over to EMT, it might also be a good opportunity to improve the Lincoln to Gainsborough timetable, rather than the present situation where Sheffield and Doncaster trains run closely spaced at some times.

It could also be possible to project the Sheffield services onwards to Grimsby or Peterborough to improve services over those lines.

The only issue (in this idealised world we're creating!) could be the Brigg line, who would run that?

Hmm...

I like the idea of

• Sheffield - semifast via Worksop - Lincoln - Peterborough (hourly)
• Sheffield - all stops to Worksop - Mansfield - Nottingham (hourly)
• Nottingham - Lincoln (hourly)
• Newark Northgate - Lincoln - Grimsby (bi-hourly)
• Newark Northgate - Lincoln - Doncaster (bi-hourly)
• Mansfield - Nottingham - Grantham - Boston - Skegness (hourly - with some direct weekend services from Sheffield to Skegness)
• Barton branch (hourly)

The "Newark - Doncaster" service not being intended for through travel, just an interworking. Similar interworking potential between the Barton branch and the Newark - Grimsby service. Sheffield - Gainsborough - Cleethorpes to remain as a weekend service?

Wouldn't need loads of new trains, but a clockface timetable designed to connect to the regular ECML services would be a huge jump forward. Potential to then replace any 153s with 156s (or increase 156s by adding a 153 to them), gradually increase the capacity now people have a regular train service they can trust.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I like your idea fo transferring it to EMT (maybe with the odd 153 to help provide services? ).

But would running the service to continue to meadowhall and terminate in p4 be any good. Capacity isn't large between sheffield and meadowhall but i have been to meadowhall and there is large gaps in service. So maybe terminating it in Bi-directional P4 would work.

Given the spread of services in the four trains an hour from Sheffield to Barnsley (the ones which use P4 for those who don't know the area) I think this may be possible. Such a shame that Meadowhall was built without passing loops/ bays

 

[YorkshireBear]

Given the spread of services in the four trains an hour from Sheffield to Barnsley (the ones which use P4 for those who don't know the area) I think this may be possible. Such a shame that Meadowhall was built without passing loops/ bays

yeah it is, but there is that extra bit of line leading into p4 (rarely used but is still used) that could be utilised for the service?

 

[tbtc]

yeah it is, but there is that extra bit of line leading into p4 (rarely used but is still used) that could be utilised for the service?

Aha! Good thinking

 

[YorkshireBear]

Aha! Good thinking

It could use that to allow faster trains to overtake and also be stabled in there if need be.
Well EMT should really have the line as well as the service to cleethorpes that northern opaerate and possibly barton on humber too.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The only issue (in this idealised world we're creating!) could be the Brigg line, who would run that?

The Brigg line I would give to EMT as well and run a Nottingham - Worksop-Cleethorpes service

5tpd Mon-Sat

3tpd Sun

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the only route back out of P4 towards Meadowhall is over the line in question (West Slow?). I suspect the challenge would be to find a path that allows sufficient turnaround at Meadowhall but also allows the back working to get back across to the Up without sitting on the West Slow line forever and a day. You've obviously got to consider the difficulties posed by another 2 movements between Nunnery ML and Sheffield each hour.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think the only route back out of P4 towards Meadowhall is over the line in question (West Slow?). I suspect the challenge would be to find a path that allows sufficient turnaround at Meadowhall but also allows the back working to get back across to the Up without sitting on the West Slow line forever and a day. You've obviously got to consider the difficulties posed by another 2 movements between Nunnery ML and Sheffield each hour.

The servie i was suggesting would be for EMT to takeover the the northern service between lincoln and sheffield so it owuld be the same as now.

 

[Waverley125]

I think it's clear Lincoln needs big improvements in it's services, both to regional and national destinations. A few ideas:

1tph London KX (EC) via Newark NG

1tp2h Cleethorpes (EC) calling Grimsby only

1tph Swansea (XC) via Nottingham, Derby, Birmingham & Lydney

1tph Cleethorpes (XC) calling Market Rasen & Grimsby only

1tph Liverpool Lime St (TPE) calling Retford, Worksop, Sheffield, Stockport, Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Irlam, Birchwood, Warrington Cent, Widnes, Liverpool SP, Liverpool LS

1tph Leeds (NT) via Doncaster & Wakefield Wgate

1tph Sheffield (NT) calling Gainsborough, Retford, Worksop only

1tph Sheffield (NT) all stops

1tph Birmingham NS (EMT) via Leicester, calling Newark Castle, Nottingham, Beeston, Loughborough, Leicester, Hinckley, Coleshill Pway

1tph Skegness (EMT) via Sleaford & Boston

1tph Peterborough (EMT) via Spalding

1tph Cleethorpes (EMT) via Market Rasen, all stops

1tph Nottingham (EMT) all stops

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It does need better services but I think the above is just way too overboard...