WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[nigelsporne]

Will the 196s be rebranded? Any news on whether they may venture in the future towards Bedford?

 

[12LDA28C]

Will the 196s be rebranded? Any news on whether they may venture in the future towards Bedford?

I would expect the EWR 196s to be rebranded and it’s rather early to say about Bedford - perhaps let’s see them in service between Oxford and Milton Keynes first!

 

[Peter Sarf]

I would expect the EWR 196s to be rebranded and it’s rather early to say about Bedford - perhaps let’s see them in service between Oxford and Milton Keynes first!

My feeling is that by the time the short platforms issue on Bedford to Bletchley are resolved * new EWR stock will have been looked at. As in a long way off.

* = I recall (in this thread or another) it is not as simple as lengthening platforms or Selective Door Opening. There are level crossings and signals to consider. Level crossings blocked by the rear of a longer train OR Signals at the front that would have to be moved with lengthened platforms.

 

[Wyrleybart]

My feeling is that by the time the short platforms issue on Bedford to Bletchley are resolved * new EWR stock will have been looked at. As in a long way off.

* = I recall (in this thread or another) it is not as simple as lengthening platforms or Selective Door Opening. There are level crossings and signals to consider. Level crossings blocked by the rear of a longer train OR Signals at the front that would have to be moved with lengthened platforms.

exactly. Which is why DfT had to strike a deal for 2x20m 150/1s to get passenger services back, after the financial collapse of Vivarail support for 230003-230005.

 

[RailWonderer]

My feeling is that by the time the short platforms issue on Bedford to Bletchley are resolved * new EWR stock will have been looked at. As in a long way off.

* = I recall (in this thread or another) it is not as simple as lengthening platforms or Selective Door Opening. There are level crossings and signals to consider. Level crossings blocked by the rear of a longer train OR Signals at the front that would have to be moved with lengthened platforms.

It is possible they could run nonstop Bletchley to Bedford in the meantime, if they found passengers would use a service though I'm not sure how easy it would be to path a stopping service around it.

 

[12LDA28C]

It is possible they could run nonstop Bletchley to Bedford in the meantime, if they found passengers would use a service though I'm not sure how easy it would be to path a stopping service around it.

Since EWR services are not predicted to reach Bedford for at least another 5 years I’m not sure what you consider to be ‘in the meantime’. It would also be a waste of a 100mph unit trundling along at 60mph to Bedford before the necessary route upgrade is complete.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Since EWR services are not predicted to reach Bedford for at least another 5 years I’m not sure what you consider to be ‘in the meantime’. It would also be a waste of a 100mph unit trundling along at 60mph to Bedford before the necessary route upgrade is complete.

Oh yes, it is not for the near future. In fact I would consider the promise of 100mph services to East of Bedford being the incentive to sort out the Bedford - Bletchley line with fewer stations but longer platforms. But I think that has been discussed in another thread.

 

[boxerdog]

Since EWR services are not predicted to reach Bedford for at least another 5 years I’m not sure what you consider to be ‘in the meantime’. It would also be a waste of a 100mph unit trundling along at 60mph to Bedford before the necessary route upgrade is complete.

WMR Class 196s are limited to 90mph

 

[pokemonsuper9]

WMR Class 196s are limited to 90mph

Are you confusing yourself with the 730/0s that are 90mph?
The 196s, like the 172s before them, are 100mph units.

 

[boxerdog]

Are you confusing yourself with the 730/0s that are 90mph?
The 196s, like the 172s before them, are 100mph units.

No, WMR 196s are limited to 90mph and are set up to run in 'ECO' mode as there are other operational modes available.

 

[craigybagel]

No, WMR 196s are limited to 90mph and are set up to run in 'ECO' mode as there are other operational modes available.

It may well be that WMR have modified the TCMS software to reduce the speed the limit kicks in at from 100 to 90, in the same way they have locked the other operational modes? There is nowhere on the 196s current network with a line speed higher than 90 - but obviously that will change when they go to EWR.

 

[HLE]

It may well be that WMR have modified the TCMS software to reduce the speed the limit kicks in at from 100 to 90, in the same way they have locked the other operational modes? There is nowhere on the 196s current network with a line speed higher than 90 - but obviously that will change when they go to EWR.

There is - ECS moves from Leamington to Tyseley, 100mph linespeed in places, and as boxerdog says the power cuts off at 90 automatically.

 

[Sprinter107]

There are a couple of 4 car car sets that havent been limited yet, and will run past 90mph.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is - ECS moves from Leamington to Tyseley, 100mph linespeed in places, and as boxerdog says the power cuts off at 90 automatically.

It is possible that the six 196/0s (007 to 012) are or will be modified to allow them to run at up to 100mph ?.

 

[HLE]

There are a couple of 4 car car sets that havent been limited yet, and will run past 90mph.

Interesting, one to keep quiet!

It is possible that the six 196/0s (007 to 012) are or will be modified to allow them to run at up to 100mph ?.

I've no idea, but it's not hard to change the power modes so I would imagine it's the same story for the limiter. I suppose it depends on Chiltern and how they intend to run them.

 

[craigybagel]

There is - ECS moves from Leamington to Tyseley, 100mph linespeed in places, and as boxerdog says the power cuts off at 90 automatically.

Ah yes, I'd gone through the whole network in my head but forgotten that they need to get to and from Leamington some how.

Interesting, one to keep quiet!



I've no idea, but it's not hard to change the power modes so I would imagine it's the same story for the limiter. I suppose it depends on Chiltern and how they intend to run them.

I would be surprised and disappointed if they didn't tweak the software given they'll spend most of their life on a 100mph line, it can't be that hard to do. Assuming they have the same performance as a 197 then even in eco mode they'll do 100 fairly easily.

 

[12LDA28C]

No, WMR 196s are limited to 90mph and are set up to run in 'ECO' mode as there are other operational modes available.

Since EWR services will be timed for 100mph operation you can be sure that the 90mph 'ECO' restriction will not be used and the units will run in one of the other operational modes. As I understand it the change of mode is very simple to achieve.

It is possible that the six 196/0s (007 to 012) are or will be modified to allow them to run at up to 100mph ?.

See above

WMR Class 196s are limited to 90mph

The EWR units won't be.

 

[craigybagel]

Since EWR services will be timed for 100mph operation you can be sure that the 90mph 'ECO' restriction will not be used and the units will run in one of the other operational modes. As I understand it the change of mode is very simple to achieve.



See above



The EWR units won't be.

Assuming it's the same set up as 197s, the speed limiter and eco mode are separate things. Eco mode doesn't change the speed limiter, it just changes through the gears earlier than in the higher modes. They'll get to 100 in eco mode, it's just they'll get there quicker in the other modes. And in all modes, they won't go any faster than 101.

By the sound of things, WMR have changed the software so the speed limiter kicks in at 90.

 

[boxerdog]

Since EWR services will be timed for 100mph operation you can be sure that the 90mph 'ECO' restriction will not be used and the units will run in one of the other operational modes. As I understand it the change of mode is very simple to achieve.



See above



The EWR units won't be.

90mph isn't ECO, ECO is an operating mode which is to do with gear changes & engine revs - if I remember correctly.

Unit operational modes are:

ECO = Economic
NOR = Normal
PW = Power
SPW = Super Power

As for the 90mph limit being in place still, depends on the timings as the 196 is quite a quick diesel unit (not quite as fast as 172s in the current mode).

Ultimately East to West can do what they like as they have dedicated sublease units.

 

[12LDA28C]

90mph isn't ECO, ECO is an operating mode which is to do with gear changes & engine revs - if I remember correctly.

Unit operational modes are:

ECO = Economic
NOR = Normal
PW = Power
SPW = Super Power

As for the 90mph limit being in place still, depends on the timings as the 196 is quite a quick diesel unit (not quite as fast as 172s in the current mode).

Ultimately East to West can do what they like as they have dedicated sublease units.

Understood. The timings for EWR rely on 100mph line speed being maintained and clearly a 90mph restriction is not going to achieve that so these units will be running at 100mph on EWR services.

 

[craigybagel]

90mph isn't ECO, ECO is an operating mode which is to do with gear changes & engine revs - if I remember correctly.

Unit operational modes are:

ECO = Economic
NOR = Normal
PW = Power
SPW = Super Power

You remember correctly.

Understood. The timings for EWR rely on 100mph line speed being maintained and clearly a 90mph restriction is not going to achieve that so these units will be running at 100mph on EWR services.

Given the relatively short distances between stations and the time it takes a DMU to accelerate to 100mph, I doubt 90 Vs 100 would really make a whole lot of difference. A 197 in eco mode takes about 5 minutes to get to 100, and the longest gap between stations on EWR is only 9 minutes, judging by the times on RTT.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A 197 in eco mode takes about 5 minutes to get to 100, and the longest gap between stations on EWR is only 9 minutes, judging by the times on RTT.

Do you know how much time Super Power can save there (or is it not significant)?

 

[12LDA28C]

You remember correctly.

Given the relatively short distances between stations and the time it takes a DMU to accelerate to 100mph, I doubt 90 Vs 100 would really make a whole lot of difference. A 197 in eco mode takes about 5 minutes to get to 100, and the longest gap between stations on EWR is only 9 minutes, judging by the times on RTT.

Whatever. If the timetable is planned for 100mph units then that's what is required. Even a minute late access to the WCML at certain times of the day could impact on several other trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whatever. If the timetable is planned for 100mph units then that's what is required. Even a minute late access to the WCML at certain times of the day could impact on several other trains.

Indeed. I can see paths on the WCML being too valuable to waste on a 90mph unit when 100mph was already possible on 196s before they were made more "economical" !. I expect the ECO mode itself might not be relied upon as 196s will need to accelerate in amongst AC EMUs.

 

[craigybagel]

Do you know how much time Super Power can save there (or is it not significant)?

It's definitely noticeable - probably about a minute or so? It's hard to say, there's so much variation between fully functional units and units with one or more engines producing reduced power for various reasons. Plus the 3 car units accelerate better than the 2 cars. But on a fully functional unit, I'd say that's pretty close.

Indeed. I can see paths on the WCML being too valuable to waste on a 90mph unit when 100mph was already possible on 196s before they were made more "economical" !. I expect the ECO mode itself might not be relied upon as 196s will need to accelerate in amongst AC EMUs.

It's 3 miles from Bletchley to Milton Keynes. Even without the restrictive signalling that's likely to be in place to access the bay at Milton Keynes (and potentially the junction at Bletchley, depending on how it's been set up), it doesn't matter if it's in eco mode or superpower, it's probably not getting above 90.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.....................................

It's 3 miles from Bletchley to Milton Keynes. Even without the restrictive signalling that's likely to be in place to access the bay at Milton Keynes (and potentially the junction at Bletchley, depending on how it's been set up), it doesn't matter if it's in eco mode or superpower, it's probably not getting above 90.

Good point !.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's 3 miles from Bletchley to Milton Keynes. Even without the restrictive signalling that's likely to be in place to access the bay at Milton Keynes (and potentially the junction at Bletchley, depending on how it's been set up), it doesn't matter if it's in eco mode or superpower, it's probably not getting above 90.

No probably about it. It's the potential for delay west of Bletchley that's the issue, not the 90mph vs. 100mph capability on the WCML. An MKC-bound EWR train presenting even a minute late at Denbigh Hall South Junction is less than ideal.

 

[Wyrleybart]

No probably about it. It's the potential for delay west of Bletchley that's the issue, not the 90mph vs. 100mph capability on the WCML. An MKC-bound EWR train presenting even a minute late at Denbigh Hall South Junction is less than ideal.

Which is yet another reason why EWR should have been electrified. They could have leased 350/2s which
Probably out-accelerate a 196/0
Kinda to the environment
Could be serviced locally - unless 007-012 are divorced from Tyseley

Yeah I know !!!!

 

[Doomotron]

Which is yet another reason why EWR should have been electrified. They could have leased 350/2s which
Probably out-accelerate a 196/0
Kinda to the environment
Could be serviced locally - unless 007-012 are divorced from Tyseley

Yeah I know !!!!

They wouldn't be much use on the Chiltern...

 

[12LDA28C]

They wouldn't be much use on the Chiltern...

But the 196s won't be used on Chiltern either, apart from going to Tyseley for maintenance. EWR is a self-contained railway and if it had been electrified from the start with EMUs used, maintenance would have been done at Bletchley.