XC have re vinyled 3 x Power cars at Laira

[DanNCL]

I may have missed but what's the anticipated withdrawal date for normal timetabled services?

It’s mid September, I’m sure someone can provide the exact date.

18th September with one diagram (1V50 and associated diagram), putting the set at Neville Hill ready for the tour on the 19th.
No sets booked out on the 16th or 17th, which means the last day with more than one XC HST out is the 15th.

 

[YorksLad12]

Money well spent.
Amazing how much can be wasted on a PR exercise with vehicles intended for the scrap yard, while the regular operation has to continue to suffer from extreme overcrowding and scruffy interiors.

Statistically insignificant compared to buying a new fleet of trains maybe, but not other stuff. I completely understand that it may have come out of a PR budget that was always going to be used on PR and so money hasn’t been switched from buying a new fleet to just repaint these. I also understand that good PR and marketing are necessary and sometimes there’s a bigger picture that this contributes to.
*But* I can totally understand that people might see this while sitting in a mess room that has a broken toilet or just having watched a member of staff like a cleaner be made redundant due to costs and feel like the money used to repaint these trains could better used.

A deep clean at the very least would have gone a long way.

It'll be from a different budget. Train wrapping will come from the marketing spend or have been ring-fenced for to a specific "special projects" budget. Deep cleans will be operational, toilet repairs infrastructure, etc.

If it hadn't been spent it wouldn't have been used elsewhere, though it might have been recovered and redistributed next April.

I know some of you know this already...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would hope that a deep clean will have happened anyway before the vinyl was applied.

A deep clean of the Voyagers, is what I meant ofc Not the HSTs.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

It'll be from a different budget. Train wrapping will come from the marketing spend or have been ring-fenced for to a specific "special projects" budget. Deep cleans will be operational, toilet repairs infrastructure, etc.

If it hadn't been spent it wouldn't have been used elsewhere, though it might have been recovered and redistributed next April.

I know some of you know this already...

The problem is those who have never been near the senior levels of a business just don't understand about budgets or how money is ring fenced and will unfortunately just complain the money hasn't been spent on X which comes from budget Y when A has been spent from budget B

 

[Topological]

The problem is those who have never been near the senior levels of a business just don't understand about budgets or how money is ring fenced and will unfortunately just complain the money hasn't been spent on X which comes from budget Y when A has been spent from budget B

Of course if budget Y and B are set appropriately in the first place...

As someone who works in another industry where budgets are ringfenced it can seem very odd that you cannot just move money around for something important. However, if demand led spending then the whole business would be listing from side to side without any sense of direction. At least budgets mean that everyone knows what is available for A in B, or X in Y and can plan accordingly.

I think we just enjoy seeing some old liveries running around and make separate judgements about Cross Country cleanliness when travelling.

 

[jagardner1984]

One might argue if I were a naughty Cross Country exec somewhat gulping at taking another barrel load of s*** for a decision I had no control over when even more of my customers will spend all winter standing next to a Voyager toilet, that having a big splash of publicity photos out there with the accompanying interview “so what are you replacing these with then ?” “Well since DfT are withdrawing the funding … errr nothing” - might help establish what they’d have described in the brilliant The Thick of It as “some distance” from the policy.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Of course if budget Y and B are set appropriately in the first place...

As someone who works in another industry where budgets are ringfenced it can seem very odd that you cannot just move money around for something important. However, if demand led spending then the whole business would be listing from side to side without any sense of direction. At least budgets mean that everyone knows what is available for A in B, or X in Y and can plan accordingly.

I think we just enjoy seeing some old liveries running around and make separate judgements about Cross Country cleanliness when travelling.

I also work in a different industry and if my board told me that they wanted my budget for something else it would be a blood bath leading to the resignations if my entire department because it was preagreed and we have plans to spend that cash. If cleaning can't be done in their budget, then there should be changes in their department, not punishing my department and our projects because they can't do maths

 

[GoneSouth]

Wrapping a couple of locos doesn’t sound expensive to me. The HSTs are a huge part of the history of railways in this country and a hugely successful British design and engineering project we haven’t seen the like of since. They are an iconic design, like Concorde or The Mini.

We should most definitely be celebrating their retirement and marking it publicly. Remember without these magnificent machines we might have a lot less railway to talk about these days. They saved BR’s bacon when they launched ‘The age of the train’. Would anyone complaining on here about the expense dare suggest those age of the train commercials shouldn’t have been produced either to promote a fantastic product (notwithstanding the evil b that fronted them of course)?

Let’s celebrate something we did well, if we can’t do that then we may as well all just give up trying!

 

[MML]

The problem is those who have never been near the senior levels of a business just don't understand about budgets or how money is ring fenced and will unfortunately just complain the money hasn't been spent on X which comes from budget Y when A has been spent from budget B

I think the travelling public would question why money is being spent on budget X at all when adequate spending on budget Y would have better outcomes for the customer and the company finances.
EMR is a prime example. They spend huge amounts on often misleading marketing showing interiors which aren't currently available and use of a stuffed mascot, yet their train interiors are filthy and threadbare, and their services frequently short formed with severe overcrowding that it puts people off travelling by train.
The marketing hype might have encouraged travellers to travel for the first time, but sitting in a carriage with smelly carpets, filthy seats or noisy ineffective air conditioning will result in very few returning for a second time. How many customers standing on a cramped 2-car 158 between Nottingham and Manchester think spending on marketing was worthwhile? Many will simply choose not to repeat the experience.
Marketing and advertising is useful for stimulating new markets or making customers aware of a service.
But it is value for money, convenience, comfort, and customer satisfaction which decide whether customers return.

 

[irish_rail]

Wrapping a couple of locos doesn’t sound expensive to me. The HSTs are a huge part of the history of railways in this country and a hugely successful British design and engineering project we haven’t seen the like of since. They are an iconic design, like Concorde or The Mini.

We should most definitely be celebrating their retirement and marking it publicly. Remember without these magnificent machines we might have a lot less railway to talk about these days. They saved BR’s bacon when they launched ‘The age of the train’. Would anyone complaining on here about the expense dare suggest those age of the train commercials shouldn’t have been produced either to promote a fantastic product (notwithstanding the evil b that fronted them of course)?

Let’s celebrate something we did well, if we can’t do that then we may as well all just give up trying!

But why not, like GWR did , do it earlier. These haven't even seen the light of day yet outside of Laira to my knowledge, and yet there is only a month or so more of XC HSTS!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It'll be from a different budget. Train wrapping will come from the marketing spend or have been ring-fenced for to a specific "special projects" budget. Deep cleans will be operational, toilet repairs infrastructure, etc.

If it hadn't been spent it wouldn't have been used elsewhere, though it might have been recovered and redistributed next April.

I know some of you know this already...

Which would have far more value to customers than this does, which has no value other than to attract hardcore enthusiasts, some of whom then often swarm the train and staff and cause a great deal of annoyance all round

 

[Topological]

I think there is a need to remember the other budget option when there is underspend, reallocation to somewhere completely different. Given the DfT are involved they may simply decide unspent budget is a reason for less subsidy/support.

Always better to spend what has been allocated under each heading and secure that money for that heading going forwards.

 

[12LDA28C]

Which would have far more value to customers than this does, which has no value other than to attract hardcore enthusiasts, some of whom then often swarm the train and staff and cause a great deal of annoyance all round

It's somewhat ironic that you appear to be an enthusiast yourself and yet regularly display utter disdain bordering on contempt for others with the same interest.

 

[Towers]

Which would have far more value to customers than this does, which has no value other than to attract hardcore enthusiasts, some of whom then often swarm the train and staff and cause a great deal of annoyance all round

You’re talking rubbish, as I’m sure you’re well aware. Plenty beyond ‘hardcore enthsiasts’ have a suitably warm heart to be able to recgonise and appreciate the value of something historic, which is why we have listed buildings and conservation areas, and explains why as a society in general we place a substantial worth on cultural history.

The need that some posters feel to pop up on as many threads as possible and remind everyone that they dislike any nod to history because it’s only for spotters, is as bizarre as it is tedious. Company exectuives whose opinions are a great deal more valid have decided it was a good idea, that’s an end to it really

 

[Whistler40145]

You’re talking rubbish, as I’m sure you’re well aware. Plenty beyond ‘hardcore enthsiasts’ have a suitably warm heart to be able to recgonise and appreciate the value of something historic, which is why we have listed buildings and conservation areas, and explains why as a society in general we place a substantial worth on cultural history.

The need that some posters feel to pop up on as many threads as possible and remind everyone that they dislike any nod to history because it’s only for spotters, is as bizarre as it is tedious. Company exectuives whose opinions are a great deal more valid have decided it was a good idea, that’s an end to it really

I totally agree with @Towers

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm entitled to the opinion that money spent on painting trains going out of service next month, would be better spent cleaning the trains that will remain for many years, if that is what I believe. You do not have to agree, but purely because you disagree does not mean I am talking rubbish.

I myself take a great interest in the railways, but would prefer money was spent where the general public will benefit, particularly as there is a great irony in spending money on the aesthetics of a train that will be withdrawn next week when their primary fleet are so filthy. Members of this forum complain about the state of Voyagers more than anyone else, so cannot deny that argument now, surely? There is nothing I have against a bit of nostalgia, so were they cleaning their long-term fleet I would not be moaning, but the priorities here simply seem out of whack.

It's also very interesting how the opinions of company executives are "a great deal more valid" when they decide to paint a train into heritage liveries, but when they want to take older trains out of use, or reduce frequencies/formations accordingly for whatever reason, nobody says that then. How very ironic to refer to it as preserving history too. Do you remember what happened when history was preserved on two LNER power cars? They went on a farewell tour and then sent straight to the doomyard.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm entitled to the opinion that money spent on painting trains going out of service next month, would be better spent cleaning the trains that will remain for many years, if that is what I believe. You do not have to agree, but purely because you disagree does not mean I am talking rubbish.

I myself take a great interest in the railways, but would prefer money was spent where the general public will benefit, particularly as there is a great irony in spending money on the aesthetics of a train that will be withdrawn next week when their primary fleet are so filthy. Members of this forum complain about the state of Voyagers more than anyone else, so cannot deny that argument now, surely? There is nothing I have against a bit of nostalgia, so were they cleaning their long-term fleet I would not be moaning, but the priorities here simply seem out of whack.

It's also very interesting how the opinions of company executives are "a great deal more valid" when they decide to paint a train into heritage liveries, but when they want to take older trains out of use, or reduce frequencies/formations accordingly for whatever reason, nobody says that then. How very ironic to refer to it as preserving history too. Do you remember what happened when history was preserved on two LNER power cars? They went on a farewell tour and then sent straight to the doomyard.

It’s entirely up to XC if they repaint the 3 HST Power Cars

 

[DanNCL]

I myself take a great interest in the railways, but would prefer money was spent where the general public will benefit, particularly as there is a great irony in spending money on the aesthetics of a train that will be withdrawn next week when their primary fleet are so filthy. Members of this forum complain about the state of Voyagers more than anyone else, so cannot deny that argument now, surely?

If it hadn't been spent it wouldn't have been used elsewhere, though it might have been recovered and redistributed next April.

In principle this would be good but in practice the money if not spent on this would probably be redistrubuted by the treasury outside of the railway to something of even less benefit, such as the many expensive and inhumane policies currently being implemented by the Home Office.

It's also very interesting how the opinions of company executives are "a great deal more valid" when they decide to paint a train into heritage liveries, but when they want to take older trains out of use, or reduce frequencies/formations accordingly for whatever reason, nobody says that then.

'Company executives' can choose to authorise stuff such as a one off re vinyling. They have no power whatsoever when it comes to what rolling stock they can and can't use or what frequencies they run, that's entirely the decision of the DFT.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s entirely up to XC if they repaint the 3 HST Power Cars

I agree. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though.

What I'm saying is, if I as a regular traveller on CrossCountry, wish to say I'd preferred they spent the money on cleaning the filthy trains I'll be using exclusively from September onwards, I am entitled to make that point if I want to. That is my personal opinion, and I should not be made to feel as though I am being unreasonable by saying it.

 

[Towers]

It's also very interesting how the opinions of company executives are "a great deal more valid" when they decide to paint a train into heritage liveries, but when they want to take older trains out of use, or reduce frequencies/formations accordingly for whatever reason, nobody says that then. How very ironic to refer to it as preserving history too. Do you remember what happened when history was preserved on two LNER power cars? They went on a farewell tour and then sent straight to the doomyard.

Do you think that XC execs have sat down in the boardroom and reached an independent decision to be deliberately short of rolling stock? Or do you think that perhaps the DfT might be responsible for the mess of a franchise that they’ve had to do their best with for the past two decades? Just like they’re responsible for other TOCs handing back clearly needed fleet assets without replacement. The LNER farewell tour was, again, a very much acceptable nod to the passing of an era. The fact that the train concerned was subsequently stored isn’t really relevant, the act of applying a hertiage livery isn’t expected to be a lasting memorial for all time. And, as with the XC trio, that’s fine because it isn’t actually that expensive to do it. An XC HST will underake a farewell tour, just as their counterparts did at LNER and at GWR - that’s three sets of company execs who all clearly felt that it was a good idea

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though.

What I'm saying is, if I as a regular traveller on CrossCountry, wish to say I'd preferred they spent the money on cleaning the filthy trains I'll be using exclusively from September onwards, I am entitled to make that point if I want to. That is my personal opinion, and I should not be made to feel as though I am being unreasonable by saying it.

You’re denying HST enthusiasts their right to say farewell to the fleet in heri liveries and for all we know they might have been repainted for a future owner

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You’re denying HST enthusiasts their right to say farewell to the fleet

This ridiculous sentence alone shows the conflict-of-interest here, and shows that many of these comments disagreeing with me are biased by their own love of HSTs. That's disappointing. I like the trains myself, but I made the point as I'm selfless and rather the money was used in a way that benefits all. If you believe you have a right to having a HST painted in a heritage livery (), then CrossCountry passengers definitely have a right to their trains being deep-cleaned.

If you disagree, that's fine. Don't let's turn it into a back-and-forth.

 

[Whistler40145]

This ridiculous sentence alone shows the conflict-of-interest here, and shows that many of these comments disagreeing with me are biased by their own love of HSTs. That's disappointing. I like the trains myself, but I made the point as I'm selfless and rather the money was used in a way that benefitsim all. If you believe you have a right to having a HST painted in a heritage livery (), then CrossCountry passengers definitely have a right to their trains being deep-cleaned.

I’m currently wondering what planet you’re currently on

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m currently wondering what planet you’re currently on

Honestly, I don't want to clash with anyone in the slightest, but I just cannot for the life of me understand what makes you say this?
I don't believe someone has "a right" to see a train in a certain livery, which is why I said saying it's your right for the train to be painted is ridiculous. It is. That is not a right. It is a desire.

 

[Whistler40145]

Honestly, I don't want to clash with anyone in the slightest, but I just cannot for the life of me understand what makes you say this?
I don't believe someone has "a right" to see a train in a certain livery, which is why I said saying it's your right for the train to be painted is ridiculous. It is. That is not a right. It is a desire.

I never said it was my right

 

[DanNCL]

You’re denying HST enthusiasts their right to say farewell to the fleet in heri liveries and for all we know they might have been repainted for a future owner

Nobody has a “right” to say farewell to a fleet of trains in a heritage livery, no matter how much of an enthusiast they are. By all means make the most of the HSTs whilst they’re still around but there’s no right whatsoever to a heritage repaint, that’s entirely discretionary.

 

[Whistler40145]

Nobody has a “right” to say farewell to a fleet of trains in a heritage livery, no matter how much of an enthusiast they are. By all means make the most of the HSTs whilst they’re still around but there’s no right whatsoever to a heritage repaint, that’s entirely discretionary.

It might be the right of the stock owner and XC to do whatever they want to say farewell to the HSTs

 

[DanNCL]

It might be the right of the stock owner and XC to do whatever they want to say farewell to the HSTs

Yes Angel can do what they want with them but it’s not the right of HST Enthusiasts to be able to say farewell to them in a heritage livery. If XC and Angel hadn’t done these repaints it would have been tough if anyone wanted to see heritage repaints on XC.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes Angel can do what they want with them but it’s not the right of HST Enthusiasts to be able to say farewell to them in a heritage livery. If XC and Angel hadn’t done these repaints it would have been tough if anyone wanted to see heritage repaints on XC.

Yes Quite, thank you. I simply said what I as a customer would have personally preferred to see them do with their spare money.
We don't always get what we want, so I'll get over it and hope that the Voyagers are deep-cleaned in the future.
But that was all it was, me saying what I personally would have been a better use of the money. Nobody has to agree.

I think the travelling public would question why money is being spent on budget X at all when adequate spending on budget Y would have better outcomes for the customer and the company finances.
EMR is a prime example. They spend huge amounts on often misleading marketing showing interiors which aren't currently available and use of a stuffed mascot, yet their train interiors are filthy and threadbare, and their services frequently short formed with severe overcrowding that it puts people off travelling by train.
The marketing hype might have encouraged travellers to travel for the first time, but sitting in a carriage with smelly carpets, filthy seats or noisy ineffective air conditioning will result in very few returning for a second time. How many customers standing on a cramped 2-car 158 between Nottingham and Manchester think spending on marketing was worthwhile? Many will simply choose not to repeat the experience.
Marketing and advertising is useful for stimulating new markets or making customers aware of a service.
But it is value for money, convenience, comfort, and customer satisfaction which decide whether customers return.

I think this is a very poignant and insightful summary which hits the nail on the head!

 

[Whistler40145]

Quite, thank you. I simply said what I as a customer would have personally preferred to see them do with their spare money.
We don't always get what we want, so I'll get over it and hope that the Voyagers are deep-cleaned in the future.
But that was all it was, me saying what I personally would have been a better use of the money. Nobody has to agree.

Not your right either to assume