Transdev Blazefield

[Deerfold]

No, I can see that side of it. Just stating my overall opinion on it. You don't want to lose passengers through an endless groan of announcements though and that is why I think a middle ground could be established. I mean, blind and partially sighted have used buses for the past 100 years without issue (quite a few even do the journey on their own). You also need to acknowledge the mental illnesses like autism whereby excessive noise can make journeys harder. I can see the appeal of announcements and hence me not saying scrap them. Just reduce them perhaps at times. Does every stop need to be announced? It's all good accomodating for people with one disability but that is no good if you then push out people with another one.

I think the trick is to have announcements that are as short as possible so they are useful, rather than only having them at selected stops. Of course some blind people have always used buses, but many have had to rely on asking the driver to tell them when they got to the stop. It can also be very useful for directing people visiting you and for visitors in general.

There were some long discussions at TfL about adding "Alight here for..." messages to iBus so as not to overwhelm people.

Some of the Transdev announcements are quite rambling and I think would be better tightened up.

It seems the X43 route number remains.

Witchway - 2004

SK70 BVZ

www.flickr.com

At least until the next service change.

 

[LucyP]

The problem with Blazefield is that they always take things too far. In Harrogate they have one voice on the 36, a different one on the battery buses and yet another one on the 7.

Why go out of your way to get some old (now retired and soon to be forgotten) local newsreader, with a local accent to do the announcements on the 36? The accent probably doesn't help non local/foreign tourists, of which Harrogate has many.

The one on the electric buses is again (I think) someone local, who won a competition. That voice is the worst, and it is difficult to hear what is being said.

The voice on the 7 is clearly a professional from a voice-over agency and it shows. It is the most clear and easy to understand. The same voice has now been added to the 36 and the battery buses to provide the Covid announcements, so there is one voice for the next stop announcements and another for the Covid ones!

I agree that the announcements are too long. What is the point, half-way through the journey of being told "we're clean, safe and ready to go!" Who thought up that nonsense strapline? The bus isn't really clean, after a day of carrying passengers. How do they know what safe is, when scientists cannot agree? And how are they "ready to go", when we are already half-way through the journey?

The biggest problem is that the technology doesn't work properly. The last 36 I travelled only had announcements downstairs, although the display was working upstairs.

At least half of the buses on the 7 don't work at all, or there are no announcements, or the display is frozen, or is showing the wrong location as the next stop.

I don't think the main benefit of the announcements is for blind/partially sighted people. I have very rarely seen such people on buses. The announcements are useful for people who are not familiar with the local area, and they are very useful in the dark, even for people familiar with the local area.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, I can see that side of it. Just stating my overall opinion on it. You don't want to lose passengers through an endless groan of announcements though and that is why I think a middle ground could be established. I mean, blind and partially sighted have used buses for the past 100 years without issue (quite a few even do the journey on their own). You also need to acknowledge the mental illnesses like autism whereby excessive noise can make journeys harder. I can see the appeal of announcements and hence me not saying scrap them. Just reduce them perhaps at times. Does every stop need to be announced? It's all good accomodating for people with one disability but that is no good if you then push out people with another one.

Blind and partially sighted people haven't been using buses without issue. It's just that either they've had to travel with someone OR often not travelled at all. Also, "making do" is no substitute for making things better and easier; else we'd continue to see Scotland dominated by the equivalent of Y type Leopards rather than low floors as pensioners managed steps before.

Also, and I confess I'm no expert and that people's health conditions vary, but if someone's autism is sensitive enough for those announcements, then might not the general noise of a busy journey be more of an issue and that measures such as noise-cancelling earphones might be necessary.

Why go out of your way to get some old (now retired and soon to be forgotten) local newsreader, with a local accent to do the announcements on the 36? The accent probably doesn't help non local/foreign tourists, of which Harrogate has many

I don't know about that. It's not like it's a really thick accent and are using local dialect and slang.

I agree that the announcements are too long. What is the point, half-way through the journey of being told "we're clean, safe and ready to go!" Who thought up that nonsense strapline? The bus isn't really clean, after a day of carrying passengers. How do they know what safe is, when scientists cannot agree? And how are they "ready to go", when we are already half-way through the journey?

That's fair enough. I understand why they're trying to reassure passengers but to have it constantly during next stop announcements is a bit much

The biggest problem is that the technology doesn't work properly.

That really shouldn't be a reason for not having them.

I don't think the main benefit of the announcements is for blind/partially sighted people.

As with many developments, there is a disconnect between the reason why things happen and then who benefits. Step free access came about to enable wheelchair users and underpinned by PSVAR/DDA legislation yet you see few wheelchair users.... those who benefit are women pushing buggies and/or pensioners with reduced mobility.

 

[LucyP]

They should fix it to make it work then. Why do they leave it not working on the same buses week after week?

 

[markymark2000]

Blind and partially sighted people haven't been using buses without issue. It's just that either they've had to travel with someone OR often not travelled at all. Also, "making do" is no substitute for making things better and easier; else we'd continue to see Scotland dominated by the equivalent of Y type Leopards rather than low floors as pensioners managed steps before.

Also, and I confess I'm no expert and that people's health conditions vary, but if someone's autism is sensitive enough for those announcements, then might not the general noise of a busy journey be more of an issue and that measures such as noise-cancelling earphones might be necessary.

I've personally seen plenty of blind or partially sighted people getting on buses. If they are new to travelling, they ask the driver. As has been said above, half the time the stuff doesn't work and it's also worth saying that on my local route, foreign tourists get given an address and end up asking for help off the driver. Announcements would be no use as they struggle with accents, stop names are different to the roads they may want. It's generally quite useless. I really think you need to read properly what was said as well as I never said no announcements, I said reduce them and only put them on for major stops and areas where it is needed so they have the maximum impact for those who can make use of the announcements without being detrimental to all other passengers. It's a compromise.
There are hundreds of bus stops around the country where the bus stops but the actual stop is never used. Who are you helping by reading out these stops?

As for Autism, not all autistic people can use noise cancelling earphones and you would be pushing them people off buses. Trust me, I am one of those people and I have friends with autism too. I avoid buses with announcements. Why do you think supermarkets were all doing the autism mornings? If it was as simple as noise cancelling headphones, no one would be doing specific autism shopping hours.


Your low floor/ramp things are extremely different as I can see nobody who would be affected negatively by it. Announcements are very different though as you are negatively affecting people with a different illness.

 

[jammy36]

I've personally seen plenty of blind or partially sighted people getting on buses. If they are new to travelling, they ask the driver.

That may be the case, but your observations are a pretty small sample size (and don't match my own observations). Similarly, you cannot see those blind or partially sighted people who are not getting the bus because they are afraid or unable to do so.

half the time the stuff doesn't work

Then the system/ needs to be fixed to make it work.

reduce them and only put them on for major stops and areas where it is needed

Reducing their frequency only to major stops negates the benefit they give partially sighted or blind people. I do agree entirely with the need to make them consistent, focussed and to cut out superfluous information. Next stop/this stop announcements only.

As for Autism, not all autistic people can use noise cancelling earphones and you would be pushing them people off buses. Trust me, I am one of those people and I have friends with autism too. I avoid buses with announcements. Why do you think supermarkets were all doing the autism mornings? If it was as simple as noise cancelling headphones, no one would be doing specific autism shopping hours.

Point taken, but of course the next stop announcements are only one source of noise on public transport - removing them does not remove the engine noise, other passengers talking, bells ringing, music playing, etc all of which can be a barrier to using public transport if you have sensory sensitivity. The supermarket analogy is slightly different as that is aimed at modifying the whole sensory experience.

I do expect that public transport is behind the curve with sensory sensitivity. I doubt much thought has been given by Transdev to frequencies (regularity) of announcements, loudness of sound (and variations in loudness or voice), frequencies (as in pitch) of sounds, etc all of which can alter the level of impact caused - the use of celebrity voices, suggest this is sadly more about "amazingness" rather than a research-led attempt to make buses more accessible.

 

[Ken H]

I've personally seen plenty of blind or partially sighted people getting on buses. If they are new to travelling, they ask the driver. ...

In the 70's dad had a blind piano tuner come every few months to tune his piano. He travelled round Leeds with his white stick. Think he had a free bus pass. he seemed to manage. Back loaders so no DAVR stuff.

Dad collected him from the bus stop and took him back after.

bet the conductors looked after him.

 

[markymark2000]

That may be the case, but your observations is a pretty small sample size (and doesn't match my own observations). Similarly, you cannot see those blind or partially sighted people who are not getting the bus because they are afraid or unable to do so.


Then the system/ needs to be fixed to make it work.


Reducing their frequency to major stops only negates the benefit they give partially sighted or blind people. I do agree entirely with the need to make them consistent, focussed and to cut out superfluous information. Next stop/this stop announcements only.


Point taken, but of course the next stop announcements are only one source of noise on public transport - removing them does not remove the engine noise, other passengers talking, bells ringing, music playing all of which can be a barrier to using public transport if you have sensory sensitivity. The supermarket analogy is slightly different as that is aimed at modifying the whole sensory experience.

I do expect that public transport is behind the curve with sensory sensitivity. I doubt much thought has been given by Transdev to frequencies (regularity) of sounds, loudness of sound (and variations in loudness or voice), frequencies of announcements (as in pitch), etc all of which can alter the level of impact caused - the use of celebrity voices, suggest this is sadly more about "amazingness" rather than a research-led attempt to make buses more accessible.

I take your point that the sample size may be small.

The systems do need fixing but it's not a fault which can keep the buses in. The DVSA aren't going to send a bus back to the depot for dodgy audio. Either a trip runs or it doesnt and I know that 99% of the passengers would prefer.

Reducing the frequency reduces the benefit I agree but as I say, hundreds of stops around the UK don't have any passengers at all, the stops exist merely to reduce the distance between bus stops. Limited stop sections kind of need the announcements, major stops and general points of interest (like stops around a town so people know where to alight for certain areas of the town or a train station connection).

As for the last point, sensory overload happen because there are too many noises and the announcements simply add to the issue. It's similar to the phrase 'straw which broke the camels back'. The more sounds you add, the worse it gets and more unmanageable it becomes and while to a 'normal' person, announcements do nothing sensory wise, to someone with sensory issues, it's the difference between coping and a sensory meltdown. It's adding to unnecessary sounds which is the exact same as supermarkets were doing. Reducing unnecessary sounds. Engine noise and other passengers you can't do much about. Announcements however are a company choice and are avoidable (simply by the operator choosing not to include them)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That may be the case, but your observations is a pretty small sample size (and doesn't match my own observations). Similarly, you cannot see those blind or partially sighted people who are not getting the bus because they are afraid or unable to do so.


Then the system/ needs to be fixed to make it work.


Reducing their frequency to major stops only negates the benefit they give partially sighted or blind people. I do agree entirely with the need to make them consistent, focussed and to cut out superfluous information. Next stop/this stop announcements only.


Point taken, but of course the next stop announcements are only one source of noise on public transport - removing them does not remove the engine noise, other passengers talking, bells ringing, music playing all of which can be a barrier to using public transport if you have sensory sensitivity. The supermarket analogy is slightly different as that is aimed at modifying the whole sensory experience.

I do expect that public transport is behind the curve with sensory sensitivity. I doubt much thought has been given by Transdev to frequencies (regularity) of sounds, loudness of sound (and variations in loudness or voice), frequencies of announcements (as in pitch), etc all of which can alter the level of impact caused - the use of celebrity voices, suggest this is sadly more about "amazingness" rather than a research-led attempt to make buses more accessible.

Think this sums up what I was going to respond to @markymark2000 and @LucyP

I really do want to stress that I do honestly recognise a personal lack of in-depth knowledge of autism; unless you're either affected by it directly, as a parent/partner/sibling, as a carer or in a professional capacity, it's difficult for a layman to fully appreciate every permutation of a condition that doesn't conform to strict and limited distinctions. As with Autism, many of us don't really know what it's like to be blind, or profoundly deaf, or a range of other conditions that impact how modern life is lived. My point was that if NSAs are a problem, then the other noises like bells and buzzers, other passengers' conversations, engine noise, transmission whine, etc may be as much of an issue.

Certainly, the format, frequency and volume of NSAs does need to reflect both the issues for both autistic and visually impaired passengers. Chopping out 1/3 of the verbeage is much more sensible than cutting out 1/3 of the stops so served.

I appreciate the comments on low floors and NSAs. My point was this - they are there to help visually impaired. That they help some others who might not be local is a bonus, in much the same way that wheelchair access benefitted other demographics. NSAs are there primarily to help blind people and any benefits are a bonus, and they shouldn't be detrimental to another passenger group. Getting back on topic, if they are intrusive or unclear, then Transdev should lose the gimmick and have something nearer RP. That said, local accents are nothing new.... Go North East have had them for some years and it's even longer on the T&W Metro

 

[SCH117X]

Anyone know the price of moquette, I suspect that the profit margin will be far lower than for something like a Christmas card, and you have to consider that there will be a relatively low number of these being made.

Slightly irrelevant given they state "A limited number of these cushions have been kindly donated by Camira fabrics, and all proceeds from the sales are going to NHS Charities Together" which implies they have cost Transdev nothing.

 

[Andyh82]

As expected the last bus in the batch of new E400MMCs (number 2019) is in generic grey livery, so as well as being a spare for Cityzap will no doubt also turn up elsewhere such as on Coastliner Express in the summer (if this service reappears again)

The WYIS fleetlist confirms that of the ex-Witch Way buses 2766-2772 are going to Blackburn for Hotline, 2776-2778 are for Dalesway at Keighley, 2774/5 are already at Harrogate, 2779 is accident damaged and 2773/2780 are staying at Burnley

 

[SCH117X]

2019 has "buses people want to be seen on" on its side rather than "Pride of the North"

 

[jammy36]

2019 has "buses people want to be seen on" on its side rather than "Pride of the North"

Which seems slightly ironic given this vehicle's windows are so heavily tinted that you can't actually see people on the bus!

 

[theblackwatch]

36 branded beer is the latest addition to the Boutique albeit being sold by the brewery concerned.

And note that the beer isn't actually a special brew - it's just Harlow Blonde which has been re-branded (to be fair, it's a nice beer). I popped to the brewery last weekend and came away with a bottle, which, once drunk, will be added to my collection of 50+ empty railway related beer bottles!

 

[JetBlast]

I just spotted this on Twitter.
It’s a little embarrassing if correct...

https://twitter.com/stepherprocter/status/1340961999929434118?s=21

@Rossobus
good morning today I was on one of your 464 buses and at the back it has a picture of a football stadium but it is not Accrington Stanley like the name says in the bottom right corner it is in fact Fleetwood town.

 

[SCH117X]

Mr Hornby today tweeted a photo of 2 Rossobus Solos going away for scrap to PVS and said 6 newer Solo SRs were incoming.

Todays WYIS updated fleetlist has four 2013 Solo SRs YD63UZP/S/T/U as "due imminently from Dawson Rentals" - fleet nos 161-164 listed as being allocated to the Rosso fleet at Burnley.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I just spotted this on Twitter.
It’s a little embarrassing if correct...

https://twitter.com/stepherprocter/status/1340961999929434118?s=21

An England flag on the wall has FT FC written on it and the photo looks like it was taken facing Highbury Avenue from the north west corner of the stadium. A bit embarrassing considering Stanley are listed a Fleetwood's 3rd largest rivals an the FT Wikipedia page.

 

[upasalmon]

No one has mentioned that the new E400s are numbered 2001-2019.
Blaze field has renumbered some of their fleet in a similar way to those I suggested some months back. If the six . . Blackpool Volvo B7RLEs are acquired they should be either 1756-61 or 1872-7. Fleet numbers do matter.

 

[GusB]

No one has mentioned that the new E400s are numbered 2001-2019.
Blaze field has renumbered some of their fleet in a similar way to those I suggested some months back. If the six . . Blackpool Volvo B7RLEs are acquired they should be either 1756-61 or 1872-7. Fleet numbers do matter.

Why? In what way does it matter, other than to satisfy your own sense of order, which not everyone is going to share?

 

[M60lad]

Whats happening with all the loan buses Rosso have got at the moment how long are they staying for and is there a reason why they can only be used on School Services?

I'm sure now the Schools are off it would be good if they could use them on normal services especially the Pink MMC400 considering its similar to ones that they've got recently for X43.

 

[RustySpoons]

No one has mentioned that the new E400s are numbered 2001-2019.
Blaze field has renumbered some of their fleet in a similar way to those I suggested some months back. If the six . . Blackpool Volvo B7RLEs are acquired they should be either 1756-61 or 1872-7. Fleet numbers do matter.

To be fair they renumbered quite a few members of the fleet due to the new maintenance set up they've got, I don't think it was because of your suggestion.

 

[SCH117X]

Whats happening with all the loan buses Rosso have got at the moment how long are they staying for and is there a reason why they can only be used on School Services?

Could be an agreed mileage that they would be used for; Blackpool would hardly be amused if they heavily used and returned with their mileage clocked on a good deal.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

An England flag on the wall has FT FC written on it and the photo looks like it was taken facing Highbury Avenue from the north west corner of the stadium. A bit embarrassing considering Stanley are listed a Fleetwood's 3rd largest rivals an the FT Wikipedia page.

It looks like it was taken from inside the main stand with its distinctive arch.

Ooops

 

[upasalmon]

GusB I take it you never use a fleet list? Why should trains have numbers then? No it's let's have a go at upasalmon again. I take it you wouldn't dismiss the late Ian Allan's lifework producing ABC books of train , and later bus numbers. I can't patent my fleet numbering systems but I stand by the observation made that I predicted some of Blazefields practices some months back.

 

[duncombec]

GusB I take it you never use a fleet list? Why should trains have numbers then? No it's let's have a go at upasalmon again. I take it you wouldn't dismiss the late Ian Allan's lifework producing ABC books of train , and later bus numbers. I can't patent my fleet numbering systems but I stand by the observation made that I predicted some of Blazefields practices some months back.

The two parts of your post don't really go together. Firstly, Ian Allan didn't invent fleet numbers for companies, he merely published lists of them for the enthusiast market at a time when they were very hard to get hold of from operating companies. I doubt it made much difference to him how they were organised.

Secondly, what is a fleet number? What do operators use them for? It is nothing more than an identifying number... it could just as easily be an asset number, an engineering record, or indeed not exist at all. East Kent managed without them for 50 years! I don't know the Transdev system well enough and all of my examples are from the South East (and thus off topic), but operators develop them in a variety of fashions. I know of operators who use them to specify precise vehicle types, whether they are single or double deckers, their seating or overall capacities, a numbered list from the very first vehicle the company owned, or just whatever the vacant number is in the fleet at that time. Does L stand for Long or Low in London? Is Electric designated by E or e, or is the E for Enviro? Of course, once a system is developed, there is nothing to stop a company deviating from it, or changing it entirely through expansion or takeover.

I'd respectfully suggest that all you have done is accurately guess what Transdev decided to do based on the fact they are a generally orderly company and are likely to follow tidy patterns, which you admit you prefer, and find easy to spot. You had no actual idea whether the buses would be 2001-19 or the start of a totally new system, WW1-19, E1-19 or even 6001-19.

 

[cnjb8]

GusB I take it you never use a fleet list? Why should trains have numbers then? No it's let's have a go at upasalmon again. I take it you wouldn't dismiss the late Ian Allan's lifework producing ABC books of train , and later bus numbers. I can't patent my fleet numbering systems but I stand by the observation made that I predicted some of Blazefields practices some months back.

Last time I checked buses were different to trains...
Trains have TOPS, so require a complex numbering system. Buses are different, some companies have a neat and organized system, some don't even have a system at all. That's proof that fleetnumbering isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.
And we are allowed to express our opinions and debate, just as much as you have...

 

[Andyh82]

Although it might be not any time soon due to Covid, I wonder what the next service will be to see a new fleet of buses in 2021 or 2022?

I’m thinking The Shuttle 662 must be in the running at some stage. Despite having received a heavy mid life refurbishment, the buses used are now 15 years old, and the interior refurbishment and external livery actually predate the current Alex Hornby diagonal livery era.

Then the following year after that, I’m guessing the Burnley locals must be due something. I know the Renown’s look smart after their refresh, but they can’t go on forever.

 

[JetBlast]

Although it might be not any time soon due to Covid, I wonder what the next service will be to see a new fleet of buses in 2021 or 2022?

I’m thinking The Shuttle 662 must be in the running at some stage. Despite having received a heavy mid life refurbishment, the buses used are now 15 years old, and the interior refurbishment and external livery actually predate the current Alex Hornsby era.

Then the following year after that, I’m guessing the Burnley locals must be due something. I know the Renown’s look smart after their refresh, but they can’t go on forever.

I think they will be best spending money on the inherited Rosso fleet. They have plenty of busses that are fairly “new” that that needs some TLC. Paint them into the new livery and refurb inside and they will be improved massively.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Last time I checked buses were different to trains...
Trains have TOPS, so require a complex numbering system. Buses are different, some companies have a neat and organized system, some don't even have a system at all. That's proof that fleetnumbering isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.
And we are allowed to express our opinions and debate, just as much as you have...

Fleet numbering is often portrayed as an absolute; vehicles must be numbered in a certain way, numbers must never be reused, vehicles being moved between firms must be in a nice tidy group.

At the end of the day, there are certain principles that certain firms may pursue but it really is each to their own.

 

[RustySpoons]

Although it might be not any time soon due to Covid, I wonder what the next service will be to see a new fleet of buses in 2021 or 2022?

I’m thinking The Shuttle 662 must be in the running at some stage. Despite having received a heavy mid life refurbishment, the buses used are now 15 years old, and the interior refurbishment and external livery actually predate the current Alex Hornby diagonal livery era.

Then the following year after that, I’m guessing the Burnley locals must be due something. I know the Renown’s look smart after their refresh, but they can’t go on forever.

I'm sure they can

I do think you're right though with your thinking. When the 662s were originally refurbed at 10 years old it was hoped they'd be able to get another 10 years out of them. Even with the work done at the time it was a hard ask of them, and by all accounts they are starting to get a bit tired now.