Route closure leading to greatest strategic loss

[Class 170101]

March to Spalding. All the container trains now have to go via Peterborough.

Though soon it won't be on the flat but via a diveunder at Werrington.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure ANY of the examples mentioned here on this thread are strategic national losses...

A couple are.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I concede that had the station been maintained, and a proper quotation of the cost of rectifying the structural problems shown it to be prohibitive (a proper costing - not a Ribblehead closure job) then it might have been necessary to replace.

But you wouldn't be dismissing Paddington, York or St Pancras as just "draughty old stations" !

As a West Midlands resident and semi-regular user of Snow Hill in the 'old days' I'll concede that it had a certain Edwardian charm (relatively unusual in the UK) and had nice spacious platforms. But at the end of the day the facilities were rather dated and the Wolverhampton end bays, on an exposed viaduct were most definitely "draughty" in a way that your other candidates aren't.

The Booking Hall, adjacent to a fume-filled and traffic clogged Taxi Rank and drop-off area, was hardly very attractive either.

A slight case of 'form over function' from a customer perspective.

Operationally the station was very slick for its traffic levels. Being on a 'hump' meant very smooth acceleration and braking as necessary. Through roads fine for freight, stabling sidings nearby.

I was allowed to hang a home-made wreath on the coupling hook of the very last scheduled DMU departure to Wolverhampton Low Level (no hi-vi or safety certification in those days) and it survived all the way. Sadly no photograph that I've ever seen.

 

[yorksrob]

As a West Midlands resident and semi-regular user of Snow Hill in the 'old days' I'll concede that it had a certain Edwardian charm (relatively unusual in the UK) and had nice spacious platforms. But at the end of the day the facilities were rather dated and the Wolverhampton end bays, on an exposed viaduct were most definitely "draughty" in a way that your other candidates aren't.

The Booking Hall, adjacent to a fume-filled and traffic clogged Taxi Rank and drop-off area, was hardly very attractive either.

A slight case of 'form over function' from a customer perspective.

Operationally the station was very slick for its traffic levels. Being on a 'hump' meant very smooth acceleration and braking as necessary. Through roads fine for freight, stabling sidings nearby.

I was allowed to hang a home-made wreath on the coupling hook of the very last scheduled DMU departure to Wolverhampton Low Level (no hi-vi or safety certification in those days) and it survived all the way. Sadly no photograph that I've ever seem.

Thanks for those very enjoyable remeniscences.

It strikes me from the photos that the fume filled taxi rank could have been easily converted into a nice, bright terrazoed concourse area.

 

[trebor79]

Though soon it won't be on the flat but via a diveunder at Werrington.

This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.

That would have required a particularly accurate Crystal Ball with a 40 year horizon.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The other point about March-Spalding is that it can never be a 'complete answer'. When it closed, of course, there was no container gauge clearance anywhere along the Joint Line.

Given the significance of the Felixstowe-Nuneaton axis as a whole, March-Peterborough was always going to have be upgraded anyway. The Peterborough-Werrington-Spalding line is also necessary for freight that has come down the ECML from London. As it happened, on one of my last trips out before Covid I saw there successive freights (the 'Heck block' empties, a steel train from the Channel Tunnel to Scunthorpe and an intermodal from London Gateway to Yorkshire) that came through Peterborough and 'turned right at' Werrington.

The comprehensive re-modelling and expansion of the whole Peterborough-Werrington section over the past 20 years has turned it into a strategic 'crossroads' for freight (and significant Infrastructure traffic to/from Whitemoor) with the maximum range of routeing options.

 

[trebor79]

This is true. One wonders if it might have been cheaper to change the manned level crossings to automatic barriers and replaced the mechanical signal boxes on the other route.

That would have required a particularly accurate Crystal Ball with a 40 year horizon.

Haha, yes indeed. It was more of an idle musing than suggesting the wrong call was made.
It's strange they closed the route via Werrington first, but I can see why they reversed that and closed the Joint Line after reinstating services to Peterborough.

The other point about March-Spalding is that it can never be a 'complete answer'. When it closed, of course, there was no container gauge clearance anywhere along the Joint Line.

Given the significance of the Felixstowe-Nuneaton axis as a whole, March-Peterborough was always going to have be upgraded anyway. The Peterborough-Werrington-Spalding line is also necessary for freight that has come down the ECML from London. As it happened, on one of my last trips out before Covid I saw there successive freights (the 'Heck block' empties, a steel train from the Channel Tunnel to Scunthorpe and an intermodal from London Gateway to Yorkshire) that came through Peterborough and 'turned right at' Werrington.

The comprehensive re-modelling and expansion of the whole Peterborough-Werrington section over the past 20 years has turned it into a strategic 'crossroads' for freight (and significant Infrastructure traffic to/from Whitemoor) with the maximum range of routeing options.

Yes, if the March route had been retained and the Werrington route closed, it would be tricky for freight from the south to get onto the Spalding line.
I can see it all makes sense. A shame the joint line closed when it did, I suspect if it had clung on for another couple of years it would still be there now

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks for those very enjoyable remeniscences [EDIT about Birmingham Snow Hill].

It strikes me from the photos that the fume filled taxi rank could have been easily converted into a nice, bright terrazoed concourse area.

An excellent point. The grand steps down to the platforms could also have been replaced with escalators in the modern era. Road access would always have been a bit of a challenge after Birmingham gained its Inner Ring Road.

The station was definitely suffering from structural problems, with quite large cracks appearing from subsidence. Frankly a lot of the GWR's Edwardian works have suffered from problems with earthworks on the 'cut-off' lines being common. Geotechnics clearly weren't their strongest engineering suit.

The steelwork was of the pre-FWW riveted era and, as many stories about the Titanic have revealed, that wasn't always as strong as its mass might have suggested.

My late father was on fire-watching duty on top of the Birmingham Council House during the Blitz and on the single heaviest night of bombing saw the Great Western Arcade opposite Snow Hill destroyed in a direct hit from a massive land mine. The station opposite was also affected.

 

[yorksrob]

An excellent point. The grand steps down to the platforms could also have been replaced with escalators in the modern era. Road access would always have been a bit of a challenge after Birmingham gained its Inner Ring Road.

The station was definitely suffering from structural problems, with quite large cracks appearing from subsidence. Frankly a lot of the GWR's Edwardian works have suffered from problems with earthworks on the 'cut-off' lines being common. Geotechnics clearly weren't their strongest engineering suit.

The steelwork was of the pre-FWW riveted era and, as many stories about the Titanic have revealed, that wasn't always as strong as its mass might have suggested.

My late father was on fire-watching duty on top of the Birmingham Council House during the Blitz and on the single heaviest night of bombing saw the Great Western Arcade opposite Snow Hill destroyed in a direct hit from a massive land mine. The station opposite was also affected.

I was watching a programme on the recent works at Blackfriars, and it seems that a lot of the metalwork on the bridge needed repairing/replacing due to water erosion, so it's not an isolated issue.

I think that if Snow Hill had survived into the 80's it would be one of Birmingham's iconic buildings and people would demand its restoration.

Actually, this all reminds me of my youth in the mid 1990's when I worked in a large supermarket which was obviously suffering some subsidence as it had large cracks in the walls in the service area with plastic gagues screwed over them, presumably to monitor any movement. When visiting my home town, I notice that the said building is still there, albeit in use with a different popular retailer.

 

[BrianW]

I'm not convinced by Matlock - Buxton (or Chinley to be pedantic about it) - yes, it gave Derby a better link to Manchester, but did it really work that well for Nottingham or Leicester ?

I think there's a better case for the GC in terms of the GC mainline and Woodhead - no reversals needed in Nottingham, a fast, electrified trans-pennine route. Added benefit it also took in Sheffield without the need for reversals.

Hindsight always being helpful, I do wonder about the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton line - closed pre Beeching. The volume of container traffic from Southampton probably couldn't have been foreseen back then, but that traffic to head north either has to head up to London, around the congested NLL onto whichever line it needs or head up through Basingstoke and Reading. Running further west and heading north at Didcot might have been useful. Probably would never have been viable for passenger traffic, but there's something to be said for trying to separate passenger and freight.

Ah yes- hindsight ...

Thinking back, whatever we might think about Beeching, Marples, ... fewer people were using the railway; car ownership and use was increasing, hugely; freight was going off the rails; folk were holidaying in Spain. (like today people want to complain about loss of local pubs, newspapers, post office, ... without using them themselves!). Beeching recommended container trains. Rationalisation was the name of the game. Who wanted to transfer from Paddington to Euston for the next Birmingham train, or from New Street to Snow Hill, Piccadilly to Central, etc. It made sense to rationalise. Agreed not so good for 'intermediate' stations, but tail to wag dog? It's different today- yes, 50, 70 years on! It took the Pines Express (sighing) 3h33m Snow Hill to Southampton in 1962/3; it's 2h37 today; don't know how long it took 'back in the day'* via Didcot and Newbury. Those were the days my friends.

* Found this thread: 3 hours and more Didcot- Southampton in the 1950s.

Historic Question - Timetable for Didcot-Newbury (DN&SR)​

 

[Hey 3]

I think Manchester to Wigan Line(LNWR route via Tyldesley , Tyldesley loop and the Whelley Loop was a loss. It would have meant there would be at least 10+ routes possible from Manchester to Scotland/Barrow/Windemere/ Blackpool via the WCML thus alleviating cacpacity on the Manchester-Preston line(via Bolton and Chorley), Manchester-Preston(via Bolton and Wigan NW), Manchester-Preston(via Atherton and Wigan NW) and Manchester-Preston(via Chat Moss and Wigan NW)

I think Manchester to Wigan Line(LNWR route via Tyldesley , Tyldesley loop and the Whelley Loop was a loss. It would have meant there would be at least 10+ routes possible from Manchester to Scotland/Barrow/Windemere/ Blackpool via the WCML thus alleviating cacpacity on the Manchester-Preston line(via Bolton and Chorley), Manchester-Preston(via Bolton and Wigan NW), Manchester-Preston(via Atherton and Wigan NW) and Manchester-Preston(via Chat Moss and Wigan NW)

And a thought, they were mainly closed for the M602 construction (bar the Whelley Loop), Hmmm, I wonder who was transport secretary then

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think Manchester to Wigan Line(LNWR route via Tyldesley , Tyldesley loop and the Whelley Loop was a loss. It would have meant there would be at least 10+ routes possible from Manchester to Scotland/Barrow/Windemere/ Blackpool via the WCML thus alleviating cacpacity on the Manchester-Preston line(via Bolton and Chorley), Manchester-Preston(via Bolton and Wigan NW), Manchester-Preston(via Atherton and Wigan NW) and Manchester-Preston(via Chat Moss and Wigan NW)


And a thought, they were mainly closed for the M602 construction (bar the Whelley Loop), Hmmm, I wonder who was transport secretary then

Tyldesley-Wigan closed under Tom Fraser (despite having promised to 'stop major closures') although I think that construction of the M602 began under Barbara Castle or Richard Marsh.

 

[Hey 3]

Tyldesley-Wigan closed under Tom Fraser (despite having promised to 'stop major closures') although I think that construction of the M602 began under Barbara Castle or Richard Marsh.

Manchester and Wigan Railway(aka Eccles-Tyldesley-Wigan line) closed under Richard Marsh(in fact it was closed by Marples for passenger services in 1961(bar the Manchester Exchange-Scotland services and closed fully in October 1969 under Richard Marsh for all trains) to allow the M602(no suprise there eh) construction to proceed.
As late as 1968, BR propsed to put the line on a bridge over the M602(I don't know how would descend to ground level)

And M602 construction actually began under the conservatives, a person named Peter Walker

 

[47271]

Interesting to come back to this as the OP after a month or so.

First of all, I don't agree with the couple of posts complaining that this thread was just another opportunity for people to bemoan the loss of their favourite old line. The objective was to identify routes whose closure significantly disadvantaged a very much larger group of users than those either on the route itself or at either end of it.

A lot of suggestions, but other than routes that would now be heavily used by intermodals reaching modern ports serving a very different purpose from when the lines were shut in the 1960s, or ones like Oxford-Cambridge and are already in hand, then I'm not convinced that any of them are especially strong examples of strategic loss alongside Glenfarg?

I was partly intrigued and partly strongly in agreement with the post quoted below. First the agreement: the decimation of a large part of the Northern Irish network probably does beat any other examples from elsewhere in the UK. But, back in Scotland, I don't understand why a substantial diversion via Kirkcaldy and Ladybank means that an hourly service between Edinburgh and Perth is more desirable, or possible, than if it went via Kelty and Kinross, other than for the few people who want to travel between Kirkcaldy and Perth? Inverkeithing, arguably a more significant source of traffic than Kirkcaldy, is on both routes.

I disagree. Re-opening of the Perth to Ladybank line to passenger traffic in the 1970s means that there is now an hourly though train service from Edinburgh to Perth.

It did not destroy rail access to a substantial area, unlike the actions of the Stormont administration in the Six Counties, which mutilated the GNR in 1957 and then closed the Derry Road in 1965. Together with the closure of the SL&NCR and CDR, this has left 5 of the 9 counties of Ulster without any rail services whatsoever, to this day.

 

[Revaulx]

Stratford to Honeybourne (NOT all the way through to Cheltenham) seems like a stupid loss. Even in the 60s, Stratford was one on the UK's top tourist destinations, and leaving it with no southern rail access was unfortunate.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Stratford to Honeybourne (NOT all the way through to Cheltenham) seems like a stupid loss. Even in the 60s, Stratford was one on the UK's top tourist destinations, and leaving it with no southern rail access was unfortunate.

But the Honeybourne route only took you to Worcester on through services. Connections at Worcester have always been very limited. Connections from Honeybourne towards Oxford were also hit-and-miss.

I did travel south of Stratford (both on the Cheltenham and Worcester services) before closure a few times and they seemed pretty quiet.

 

[yorksrob]

But the Honeybourne route only took you to Worcester on through services. Connections at Worcester have always been very limited. Connections from Honeybourne towards Oxford were also hit-and-miss.

I did travel south of Stratford (both on the Cheltenham and Worcester services) before closure a few times and they seemed pretty quiet.

Just because a route had a ropey service when closed, doesn't mean that it couldn't have been of value if operated properly.

 

[daodao]

Interesting to come back to this as the OP after a month or so.

First of all, I don't agree with the couple of posts complaining that this thread was just another opportunity for people to bemoan the loss of their favourite old line. The objective was to identify routes whose closure significantly disadvantaged a very much larger group of users than those either on the route itself or at either end of it.

A lot of suggestions, but other than routes that would now be heavily used by intermodals reaching modern ports serving a very different purpose from when the lines were shut in the 1960s, or ones like Oxford-Cambridge and are already in hand, then I'm not convinced that any of them are especially strong examples of strategic loss alongside Glenfarg?

I was partly intrigued and partly strongly in agreement with the post quoted below. First the agreement: the decimation of a large part of the Northern Irish network probably does beat any other examples from elsewhere in the UK. But, back in Scotland, I don't understand why a substantial diversion via Kirkcaldy and Ladybank means that an hourly service between Edinburgh and Perth is more desirable, or possible, than if it went via Kelty and Kinross, other than for the few people who want to travel between Kirkcaldy and Perth? Inverkeithing, arguably a more significant source of traffic than Kirkcaldy, is on both routes.

The current Edinburgh-Perth service is more frequent and faster than it ever was when trains ran via Kinross. The only significant town that has lost out is Dunfermline, as it no longer has a direct connection with Perth/Inverness, which Kirkcaldy has gained instead. This is NOT a strategic loss, as an alternative inter-city route has been substituted.

Only 5 Scottish "strategic" routes were closed in the period 1960-1970, and one has been half re-opened as a local/regional route. In addition to the Kinross line, the others are:

• Crianlarich-Dunblane [but journeys from Oban to the Scottish central belt remain straightforward, via Queen St]
• The Caledonian main line from Stanley Junction to Hillside [impacting Coupar Angus and Forfar, but through services to Aberdeen preserved via Dundee]
• The Waverley line [but the northern portion has re-opened, so currently its closure just affects journeys from the Borders to Carlisle and England; Edinburgh passengers have a good service to Carlisle and beyond via the ex-Caledonian route]
• The Port Road from Dumfries to Dunragit [which has not been replaced, but is of little loss to Scotland; passengers from England to the north of Ireland now find it much quicker to fly]

In summary, there really have not been been major losses by the closure of these "strategic" routes, and the worst (closure of the Waverley route) has been partly reversed by the re-opening as far south as Tweedbank a few years ago.

 

[Aictos]

Totally agree. I remembr catching the York-Bournemouth from Southampton a few times, saved going via London and the hell hole which is BNS.

A disastrous bit or railway to get rid of.

Just to point out that BNS is the CRS code for Barnes which is in London, the correct CRS code for Birmingham New Street is actually BHM.

As to Birmingham New Street being a hell hole, I remember the old concourse with the ticket gateline being manned by Virgin Trains and in a way was rather like going though customs aboard except they weren't checking passports!

Anyway, I disagree as although Birmingham New Street was dark and looked unpleasant, it wasn't that bad.

As to the closures, a lot of members here seem to have rose tinted specs on although I do agree that Oxford to Cambridge should never have closed and is now being reopened.

 

[Stathern Jc]

I can see the Port Road attracting more discussion if the speculation of a tunnel resurfaces from time to time.
However, any enthusiasm in that direction would need to be supported by feasible suggestions on the gauge issue; maybe just a standard gauge rail link through to a Eurotunnel style terminal / container unloading yard? But that'll be for a new thread at that time.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can see the Port Road attracting more discussion if the speculation of a tunnel resurfaces from time to time.
However, any enthusiasm in that direction would need to be supported by feasible suggestions on the gauge issue; maybe just a standard gauge rail link through to a Eurotunnel style terminal / container unloading yard? But that'll be for a new thread at that time.

I shouldn’t worry. Any fixed link to Northern Ireland would almost certainly be a road.

 

[HSP 2]

I shouldn’t worry. Any fixed link to Northern Ireland would almost certainly be a road.

Are you sure over the distance involved?

 

[47271]

The current Edinburgh-Perth service is more frequent and faster than it ever was when trains ran via Kinross. The only significant town that has lost out is Dunfermline, as it no longer has a direct connection with Perth/Inverness, which Kirkcaldy has gained instead. This is NOT a strategic loss, as an alternative inter-city route has been substituted.

Thanks for the explanation but I'm still missing your point, sorry, and I don't mean that in a rude way!

I'd agree if Glenfarg still existed and its services ran at 1960s speeds and frequencies whilst we'd zip along at modern standards via Kirkcaldy, but that wouldn't be what would happen.

In any case, the Edinburgh to Perth service, hourly or otherwise, doesn't satisfy my definition of 'strategic'. My interest in the route is based on direct experience in that I feel a sense of strategic loss every time I take the train from Kingussie to Edinburgh and find that it takes at least half an hour longer - via either alternative inter city route - than when I go in my car. Had Glenfarg survived and been upgraded then rail connectivity between the northern half of Scotland and the capital, not just Perth and the capital, would've been substantially better and more competitive than it is now.

The whole of the Highlands, that's what I mean by strategic.

 

[30907]

My interest in the route is based on direct experience in that I feel a sense of strategic loss every time I take the train from Kingussie to Edinburgh and find that it takes at least half an hour longer - via either alternative inter city route - than when I go in my car. Had Glenfarg survived and been upgraded then rail connectivity between the northern half of Scotland and the capital, not just Perth and the capital, would've been substantially better and more competitive than it is now.

Using the 1962 timetable, when via Glenfarg and Stirling (but not Ladybank) were open, the route via Stirling was approximately 10 minutes slower. This is a reasonable approximation of the strategic loss caused by the closure, the other 20 minutes you mention being accounted for by 10 or so stops.

 

[47271]

Using the 1962 timetable, when via Glenfarg and Stirling (but not Ladybank) were open, the route via Stirling was approximately 10 minutes slower. This is a reasonable approximation of the strategic loss caused by the closure, the other 20 minutes you mention being accounted for by 10 or so stops.

I'm sure that what you say is true in terms of the 1960s timetable, but my frustration is that today I can take half an hour off my train journey time between Kingussie and Edinburgh by driving on the motorway partly built over the direct rail route south of Perth. I wasn't around to feel the immediate loss of the closure 50 years ago, but I'm able to experience what that means now.

Anyway, I'm going off my own topic, if such a thing is possible! My original question was whether there are routes whose closure represent a greater strategic loss than that of Glenfarg. After 144 posts, I think that the answer is yes, but that there aren't many of them.

 

[Cambus731]

March to Spaldng was a short sighted decision, as it meant all the freight from Felixstowe to the north had to go through Peterborough

 

[Bald Rick]

March to Spaldng was a short sighted decision, as it meant all the freight from Felixstowe to the north had to go through Peterborough

I’m sure we’ve had this before, and...

1) not all freight from Felixstowe to ‘the North’ needs to go towards Doncaster; indeed not even a majority of it does. A great deal turns left at Helpston.

2) it’s all very well saying ‘short sighted’, but in 1982 the prospects for the line (indeed almost any rural line) were pretty bleak, and it was simply not realistic to expect that Felixstowe would become the traffic generating centre it has today.

 

[tbtc]

Thanks for the explanation but I'm still missing your point, sorry, and I don't mean that in a rude way!

I'd agree if Glenfarg still existed and its services ran at 1960s speeds and frequencies whilst we'd zip along at modern standards via Kirkcaldy, but that wouldn't be what would happen.

In any case, the Edinburgh to Perth service, hourly or otherwise, doesn't satisfy my definition of 'strategic'. My interest in the route is based on direct experience in that I feel a sense of strategic loss every time I take the train from Kingussie to Edinburgh and find that it takes at least half an hour longer - via either alternative inter city route - than when I go in my car. Had Glenfarg survived and been upgraded then rail connectivity between the northern half of Scotland and the capital, not just Perth and the capital, would've been substantially better and more competitive than it is now.

The whole of the Highlands, that's what I mean by strategic.

I've not waded into this thread earlier, because a lot of people have a sentimental attachment to scenic lines through fairly empty countryside, and I can see that the "strategic loss" argument is a nice hook...

...but I'm not sure about the idea that a Glenfarg line is going to remove that "half an hour" difference (from Highlands/ Inverness/ Perth to Edinburgh)

It's fifty something minutes from Perth to Inverkeithing (including stops at Kirkcaldy etc)...

...but the current line from Cowdenbeath to Inverkeithing is around fifteen minutes...

....so that's around twenty five miles of line from Perth to Cowdenbeath that HS2 would struggle to do fast enough for the overall "via Dunfermline" journey time to knock half an hour off the current "via Kirkcaldy" journey time (and then there are stops at Kinross etc to consider?)

I think that, even if the line through Glenfarg had remained open, the twists and turns would mean that it was only a few minutes faster than the Kirkcaldy route - so it's not the "poster boy" that I'd choose for strategic losses - a five or ten minute journey time caused by the diversion - no major intermediate places that lack a station - I think that driving from Kingussie to Edinburgh is always going to be significantly faster than any train service - once the forth road bridge and motorway were built, rail was always going to struggle

(okay, they could have spent tens of millions of pounds on upgrading the line through Glenfarg to make it more competitive with driving, but I think that any reprieve would have been on the basis of "keeping a loss making line open with minimal investment" rather than "save it and spend huge sums on upgrades")

 

[BrianW]

Anyone know who the Transport Secretary was at the time who authorised Okehampton to Bere Alston closure? Always good to name & shame even 50+ years on. I presume it was our old friend who owned a road construction firm: Ernest Marples who was the guilty party; or had Labour taken over by then?

Just quoting from #15 as evidence I have looked back, however skimmingly ... and at risk of being a bit controversial here ...
It looks like, to an extent maybe Ernie Marples (and his hired hatchet-man doctor) may have been right at the time and/or in retrospect, e.g
Marples introduced Premium Bonds and postcodes;
also parking meters, traffic wardens and double yellow lines;
Subscriber Trunk Dialling (STD) to replace 'just connecting you' at the Telephone Exchange;
and yes some motorways and work for Marples Ridgeway (allegedly);
and clear well engineered routes for much-wanted bypasses to many towns;
and 'freedom' for a lot of new car-owners (like many of us) to get out and about and make new journeys to work or for leisure;
Liner trains and InterCity; and
rationalisation- no need to choose between Euston and Paddington or New Street or Snow Hill; which station in Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester, Rugby, ...
I never liked the man but maybe he wasn't all bad?