Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[DunsBus]

Yes, I know that. I was just adding to the conversation of such.

If anything, Covid has acted as a reset button.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The one I’m personally gutted about is the N14, always thought where I live should have a night bus and we finally got one back. Alas it never happened and probably never will again. Shame as it’d have been well used had all this not happened - just like many other things. We have a 4am start in my work (although that probably won’t last beyond May) but the N14 would be way better than a £15 taxi.

Another thing I’ve been thinking is when the trams seriously get going (probably in the next 10 years or so) I’m expecting radical changes throughout the Lothian network, some routes may even go completely. The 16 and 22 for example will probably change significantly over time. I can’t imagine Leith Walk having all the buses it currently does so things like service 10 going via McDonald Road may end up becoming the permanent route. Similar (if not worse) issues on the Southside are probable too. Routes like the 49 could easily be largely replaced by tram services if the council are this adamant on trams long term.

 

[route101]

The one I’m personally gutted about is the N14, always thought where I live should have a night bus and we finally got one back. Alas it never happened and probably never will again. Shame as it’d have been well used had all this not happened - just like many other things. We have a 4am start in my work (although that probably won’t last beyond May) but the N14 would be way better than a £15 taxi.

Another thing I’ve been thinking is when the trams seriously get going (probably in the next 10 years or so) I’m expecting radical changes throughout the Lothian network, some routes may even go completely. The 16 and 22 for example will probably change significantly over time. I can’t imagine Leith Walk having all the buses it currently does so things like service 10 going via McDonald Road may end up becoming the permanent route. Similar (if not worse) issues on the Southside are probable too. Routes like the 49 could easily be largely replaced by tram services if the council are this adamant on trams long term.

I reckon routes like the 22 will see a frequency drop. People will still use the bus - perhaps the elderly - and any journeys unable to be done by tram. Where I stay the night bus has been off a year now. I wonder if it will come back.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The one I’m personally gutted about is the N14, always thought where I live should have a night bus and we finally got one back. Alas it never happened and probably never will again. Shame as it’d have been well used had all this not happened - just like many other things. We have a 4am start in my work (although that probably won’t last beyond May) but the N14 would be way better than a £15 taxi.

Another thing I’ve been thinking is when the trams seriously get going (probably in the next 10 years or so) I’m expecting radical changes throughout the Lothian network, some routes may even go completely. The 16 and 22 for example will probably change significantly over time. I can’t imagine Leith Walk having all the buses it currently does so things like service 10 going via McDonald Road may end up becoming the permanent route. Similar (if not worse) issues on the Southside are probable too. Routes like the 49 could easily be largely replaced by tram services if the council are this adamant on trams long term.

If the trams ever get seriously going. Personally I thought it was a financial black hole that wouldn't get developed much further, and that was before covid.

 

[takno]

If the trams ever get seriously going. Personally I thought it was a financial black hole that wouldn't get developed much further, and that was before covid.

There was a line actively under construction with a decent-quality business case, and that was before the Scottish government announced hundreds of millions of extra funding as part of a Covid recovery budget. You might want to catch up on the last five years or so if you still think the trams are a hopeless basketcase

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

I reckon routes like the 22 will see a frequency drop, people will still use the bus perhaps the elderly and any journeys unable to be done by tram. Where I stay the night bus has been off a year now, wonder if it will come back.

One thing that you need to also remember is the council 2030 vision, which is to get buses away from Princes Street and to hubs, as right now, nearly all buses touch Princes St at some point (Only a handful doesn't). I would expect a large amount of change over the next 10 years with routes, although we don't know what will happen with COVID-19 and such, with the new variants. We don't even know if we will ever get back to the way things were pre-pandemic with everyone in an office vs what percent will work from home in a new way of life, and what percent will be in an office. So many questions which might change what plans were made too.

 

[CN04NRJ]

There was a line actively under construction with a decent-quality business case, and that was before the Scottish government announced hundreds of millions of extra funding as part of a Covid recovery budget. You might want to catch up on the last five years or so if you still think the trams are a hopeless basketcase

Caught up, hasn't changed my opinion.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The trams are going to be expanded beyond the current build, that’s fairly clear in my view.

The next key route seems to be the western half of the proposed ‘northern loop’ from the West End to Granton (although there’s no confirmed route and also no plans to connect the two due to the costs involved). If the route down Crewe Road South gets chosen - which the council are likely to choose on cost grounds (instead of the old railway lines) then I don’t think the current level of buses and a tram network is necessary on Crewe Road South, not to mention the mess that Crewe Toll would be. After that the next route is planned to be from Princes St to the Royal Infirmary (possibly beyond to Musselburgh or Shawfair).

If those two routes go ahead, which seems highly likely then the Lothian network will be adjusted accordingly possibly with some of the ideas I mentioned earlier, and others.

 

[DunsBus]

The trams are going to be expanded beyond the current build, that’s fairly clear in my view.

The next key route seems to be the western half of the proposed ‘northern loop’ from the West End to Granton (although there’s no confirmed route and also no plans to connect the two due to the costs involved). If the route down Crewe Road South gets chosen - which the council are likely to choose on cost grounds (instead of the old railway lines) then I don’t think the current level of buses and a tram network is necessary on Crewe Road South, not to mention the mess that Crewe Toll would be. After that the next route is planned to be from Princes St to the Royal Infirmary (possibly beyond to Musselburgh or Shawfair).

If those two routes go ahead, which seems highly likely then the Lothian network will be adjusted accordingly possibly with some of the ideas I mentioned earlier, and others.

If I remember correctly West Granton Access, which dates from 2000 and links West Granton Road to Ferry Road using a former railway trackbed, was built with any potential future tram expansion very much in mind.

 

[GusB]

While I recognise that there is some overlap between discussion of the trams and buses in that expanding one may affect the other, please bear in mind that there is a separate thread for tram matters here:

Edinburgh Tram developments

Useful update in the online Scotsman at http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/princes-street-power-lines-to-be-installed-in-weeks-as-tram-project-gathers-pace-1-2446679 Princes Street power lines to be installed in weeks as tram project gathers pace OVERHEAD lines are to be installed in...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Jordan Adam]

There's a photo going about online of one of Lothians new Volvo B5TL / E400MMCs so they definitely exist. Interestingly theres no glazed staircase, presumably due to potential weight issues.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I can now confirm the new buses are 400MMC, a photo was sent to me with one which is attached. I notice this is the first batch of new buses without a glass staircase.

Edit: Link no longer worked, however CN04NRJ has sent the facebook group the image was posted in

 

[CN04NRJ]

I can now confirm the new buses are 400MMC, a photo was sent to me with one which is attached. I notice this is the first batch of new buses without a glass staircase. View attachment 91837

I was wondering if it would be the standard E400 MMC body, either way thanks for sharing!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I can now confirm the new buses are 400MMC, a photo was sent to me with one which is attached. I notice this is the first batch of new buses without a glass staircase.

They're also not long wheelbase, and definitely on the B5TL chassis.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not surprised they’ve opted to drop the staircase despite the fact it looks nicer with it. I imagine the current management see it more of an unnecessary expense in the middle of a pandemic, which if true is the correct way to go. New buses in any case are always a nice thing to have.

 

[OmniCity999]

They're also not long wheelbase, and definitely on the B5TL chassis.

It is the 11.3m B5TL chassis, which is considered long wheelbase...

Thr same as all of Lothians other B5TL's.

Built to cheap spec. Due to Covid.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

It is the 11.3m B5TL chassis, which is considered long wheelbase...

Thr same as all of Lothians other B5TL's.

Built to cheap spec. Due to Covid.

Ah yeah, my mistake, I forgot the third-from-rear upper deck on 10.5m ones was smaller than the rest

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It is the 11.3m B5TL chassis, which is considered long wheelbase...

Thr same as all of Lothians other B5TL's.

Built to cheap spec. Due to Covid.

Guessing the spec is broadly similar to the eVoRa’s which do look slightly more simple than other new builds. The 2nd info screen (often used for diversions and promotions) has gone too - which I prefer anyway.

No doubt ‘the when will they be here’, ‘what depot’, ‘what route’ questions will come up from now. Hopefully we don’t end up going there...

 

[CN04NRJ]

It is the 11.3m B5TL chassis, which is considered long wheelbase...

Thr same as all of Lothians other B5TL's.

Built to cheap spec. Due to Covid.

Whichever way you look at it, as much as I like the B9TLs (from passenger and driver's perspective) they're an upgrade on what they're replacing. They're not all singing, all dancing XLBs with all the trimmings but they're new buses and it's welcome to see during these times.

Guessing the spec is broadly similar to the eVoRa’s which do look slightly more simple than other new builds. The 2nd info screen (often used for diversions and promotions) has gone too - which I prefer anyway.

No doubt ‘the when will they be here’, ‘what depot’, ‘what route’ questions will come up from now. Hopefully we don’t end up going there...

Genuinely polite question but have you been inside one? They're very high spec inside and very well put together.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Genuinely polite question but have you been inside one? They're very high spec inside and very well put together.

Perhaps simple doesn’t put it correctly, what I was trying to say was that taking out a few of the ‘optional extras’ it makes them seem a little bit more simple, they are as you say still of high spec. Hope that clears that up.

I’ve been on an eVoRa a few times and personally I’m not a fan of them, nothing to do with the spec (I actually like the spec), I just don’t like the design and little things like position of the angled windows which I think go back to the Marshall era. Night and day in build quality over the Eclipse3’s but I prefer the buses that were sold as a result.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Perhaps simple doesn’t put it correctly, what I was trying to say was that taking out a few of the ‘optional extras’ it makes them seem a little bit more simple, they are as you say still of high spec. Hope that clears that up.

I’ve been on an eVoRa a few times and personally I’m not a fan of them, nothing to do with the spec (I actually like the spec), I just don’t like the design and little things like position of the angled windows which I think go back to the Marshall era. Night and day in build quality over the Eclipse3’s but I prefer the buses that were sold as a result.

Ahhh I see, message was lost in translation! Completely understand yes, i've been on a basic spec Evora before and see what you mean - without the Lothian options (plus the attractive livery, shiny wheels with red centres) they're a pretty basic and sparse design otherwise.

Looking forward to seeing interior pictures of these new E400s, though.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I can now confirm the new buses are 400MMC, a photo was sent to me with one which is attached. I notice this is the first batch of new buses without a glass staircase. View attachment 91837

Has anyone got a new link for the image? The one in this post doesn't seem to be working any more. Thanks.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Has anyone got a new link for the image? The one in this post doesn't seem to be working any more. Thanks.

The original post is on here, presuming you're on facebook ;

Log in to Facebook

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www.facebook.com

 

[Blindtraveler]

So I wonder with the latest batch of deckers if will be back to to low back seats and no extras like USB charging? That's going to be a hard sell to the public, pandemic or not.

 

[ScotRail158725]

So I wonder with the latest batch of deckers if will be back to to low back seats and no extras like USB charging? That's going to be a hard sell to the public, pandemic or not.

why would they? high back seats are basic and from the picture are visible, and i’d USB Ports are pretty standard nowadays on new buses

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The only corner I know of that the XLB’s can’t do is Pilton Drive North onto Boswall Parkway on the 8 in the Royal Infirmary direction only. The design of the mini roundabout is stupid but was done as 2 schools were equidistant from it - although 1 has since been demolished. Signals probably wouldn’t work and even then traffic levels aren’t large enough to warrant them. The only way round would possibly be to take out the islands and replace them with zebra crossings, which may also not work. Can’t see it ever happening but it does mean I’ll never get an XLB to work and for now stuck with mainly the ropey 18 plate Gemini3’s (and sometimes others).

 

[DunsBus]

The only corner I know of that the XLB’s can’t do is Pilton Drive North onto Boswall Parkway on the 8 in the Royal Infirmary direction only. The design of the mini roundabout is stupid but was done as 2 schools were equidistant from it - although 1 has since been demolished. Signals probably wouldn’t work and even then traffic levels aren’t large enough to warrant them. The only way round would possibly be to take out the islands and replace them with zebra crossings, which may also not work. Can’t see it ever happening but it does mean I’ll never get an XLB to work and for now stuck with mainly the ropey 18 plate Gemini3’s (and sometimes others).

I remember work starting on the mini-roundabout in Boswall Parkway. My late grandparents lived just along the road from it. The mini-roundabout went in at the tail end of 1982 and as you say was done to slow down the traffic flow between the two schools - too many cars were also getting hit when exiting Pilton Drive and Pilton Drive North.

The left turn from Boswall Parkway into Pilton Drive North was very tight for buses. I have a vivid memory of hearing drivers of Atlanteans on the old 20 and 89 heaving the steering wheel on to full left lock - remember, these buses had no power steering - to get round that corner.

 

[GusB]

Could I remind everyone that we should refrain from posting screenshots. If you wish to post an image, upload the actual image, not a screenshot of the image - this avoids the empty space above and below the picture and saves on bandwidth. Screenshots of text are useless to anyone using any assistive technologies to read the forum unless they're accompanied by a text description. Please copy and paste the text from your source and place it within quote tags with an appropriate link to that source.

 

[route101]

The only corner I know of that the XLB’s can’t do is Pilton Drive North onto Boswall Parkway on the 8 in the Royal Infirmary direction only. The design of the mini roundabout is stupid but was done as 2 schools were equidistant from it - although 1 has since been demolished. Signals probably wouldn’t work and even then traffic levels aren’t large enough to warrant them. The only way round would possibly be to take out the islands and replace them with zebra crossings, which may also not work. Can’t see it ever happening but it does mean I’ll never get an XLB to work and for now stuck with mainly the ropey 18 plate Gemini3’s (and sometimes others).

Can you take another route to get an XLB?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Can you take another route to get an XLB?

Not really, the nearest is a good 10 minute walk and goes on a much longer route compared to the 8, my main alternative uses mostly B9TL’s so I try and use that sometimes to mix it up.

Just unfortunate the route I use is the one that can’t have them. But hey ho there’s more important things to worry about.