May 2021 Timetable Change

[_toommm_]

Looks like Manchester to London via Crewe is back from the 29th. A good move.

Nice, thanks for the update

 

[RailAleFan]

Comparison tool updated now that the majority of TOCs have published to the weekly RSP feed although possibly of more use for study of the future timetable than actual comparison as is the intention in normal times but hopefully of some interest...

Rail - Timetable Comparison

Side-by-side comparison of adjacent UK National Rail timetable periods by location or TOC

live-departures.info

 

[norbitonflyer]

Whilst it's still early doors and the new timetable data is "very flexible," I've put together PDF's for the May 21 timetables for most of the UK (the South East still needs some work, unfortunately.) It goes without saying, that some TOC's are yet to release their data and things are obviously going to change before the timetable comes into force, but hopefully it gives an overview of what can be expected if the planned service resumes.
www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May21/

This is really good, and very useful. It may be my computer, but for Tables 4, 5, and 6 (the three covering the East Coast Main Line) I am seeing only the footnotes, and no actual times. It seems to be just those three tables.

 

[JRT]

This is really good, and very useful. It may be my computer, but for Tables 4, 5, and 6 (the three covering the East Coast Main Line) I am seeing only the footnotes, and no actual times. It seems to be just those three tables.

Ah yes my phone wasn't displaying those, thought it was temporary.

 

[IanXC]

Hull to Halifax every two hours 7 minutes after a TPE service seems a little pointless. It leaves Selby with a much poorer service. Time to bring back the Selby terminators?

So a Northern Hull-Leeds-Halifax service 7 minutes after a TPE Hull-Leeds-Manchester Piccadilly service "seems a little pointless" but removing one of the same two trains at Selby, by then 7 or 8 minutes apart results in a "much poorer service"?

I've seen no evidence that there is any particularly strong flows from Selby to any of the intermediate stops on the way to Leeds. South Milford is the real looser in this but does at least have a sensible peak time service.

 

[splashoutradio]

This is really good, and very useful. It may be my computer, but for Tables 4, 5, and 6 (the three covering the East Coast Main Line) I am seeing only the footnotes, and no actual times. It seems to be just those three tables.

Thanks for the heads up. I've done a bit of tweaking and recompiled the tables. Tables 4, 5, 6, 101, 225, 247, 248 & HOL should now show correctly (subject to the data being available)

 

[Ianno87]

So a Northern Hull-Leeds-Halifax service 7 minutes after a TPE Hull-Leeds-Manchester Piccadilly service "seems a little pointless" but removing one of the same two trains at Selby, by then 7 or 8 minutes apart results in a "much poorer service"?

I've seen no evidence that there is any particularly strong flows from Selby to any of the intermediate stops on the way to Leeds. South Milford is the real looser in this but does at least have a sensible peak time service.

Of course, the different stopping patterns means that the trains are spaced much further apart by the time they get to Leeds.

An inevitiable consequence of having a "fast" and "slow" service over such a long stretch of two track railway.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Of course, the different stopping patterns means that the trains are spaced much further apart by the time they get to Leeds.

An inevitiable consequence of having a "fast" and "slow" service over such a long stretch of two track railway.

The only solution being to have two Northern per hour. One 7 minutes after the TPEx and the other on the other side of the clock. But that would require an extra train if the existing Northern service is booked more than 2 or 3-car, otherwise you could do a "Cross Country in the early-00s" and have frequent but short trains. Then there's the issue of crews and/or pathing especially west of Micklefield.

 

[Watershed]

An inevitiable consequence of having a "fast" and "slow" service over such a long stretch of two track railway.

That's not really the driving force - it's not such a fast stretch of railway that a few extra stops cost loads of time.

The insistence on having a through service from the other side of Leeds is the tail that's wagging the dog here.

And whilst a handful of Halifax and Bradford passengers might appreciate a direct Hull service, rather more passengers for the local stations between Leeds and Hull are being inconvenienced to give them that direct service.

 

[Ianno87]

That's not really the driving force - it's not such a fast stretch of railway that a few extra stops cost loads of time.

It seems to cost about 15 minutes, which is pretty chunky.

The insistence on having a through service from the other side of Leeds is the tail that's wagging the dog here.

The driving constraint may be fitting in between Micklefield and Leeds, regardless of what the paths do west of Leeds.

 

[Glenn1969]

Or it may be that Halifax and Bradford usage justifies x tph to Leeds and there isn't room for them to terminate at Leeds station so they have to be sent through to somewhere else

My view is x is at least 4, maybe 5 or 6 based on pre Covid ridership

 

[Starmill]

I do hope that the 2327 Leeds to Halifax continues to run in the new timetable.

 

[Ianno87]

Or it may be that Halifax and Bradford usage justifies x tph to Leeds and there isn't room for them to terminate at Leeds station so they have to be sent through to somewhere else

Yes, the cross-Leeds pairings (for Northern services) are almost certainly driven by operational convenience, rather than tying to meet a particular demand flow.

 

[Starmill]

The insistence on having a through service from the other side of Leeds is the tail that's wagging the dog here.

I don't think I've ever heard of such an insistence before.

 

[Glenn1969]

It has been removed in the May timetable so the last train to Halifax is the 2257 Blackburn service. Hope that is temporary. The Hull- Leeds part remains but departs Hull 20 minutes later at 2230

 

[Starmill]

Has it been removed or not yet loaded?

 

[Glenn1969]

The rest of the timetable was loaded last week so not sure but it definitely isn't showing now

 

[Pippy1505]

Out of interest, will the London to Leeds service on the MML be operated using a 222 or 180 (if the stock has been confirmed yet)?

222

 

[IanXC]

Of course, the different stopping patterns means that the trains are spaced much further apart by the time they get to Leeds.

They are indeed but that has little to do with the point I was addressing about whether the service was 'pointless' or vital.

The insistence on having a through service from the other side of Leeds is the tail that's wagging the dog here.

And whilst a handful of Halifax and Bradford passengers might appreciate a direct Hull service, rather more passengers for the local stations between Leeds and Hull are being inconvenienced to give them that direct service.

The through service was Arriva's answer to Transport for the North's desire for cities with fewer connections to other cities in the North to have more links. Hull and Bradford were two that stood out as needing attention so the opportunity to run a service between the two must have seemed a good solution.

There is meaningful demand from Micklefield, East Garforth, Garforth and Crossgates to Bradford in normal circumstances, there was quite some uproar when these were removed at one stage a few years ago.

Who are these passengers being inconvenienced? The Hull-Selby portion didn't result in the loss of any other service, and Network Rail have determined that the service doesn't damage reliability and so allowed it to continue moving forward.

 

[swissrailpassion]

The stopping service between Selby and Leeds before 2019 was rather useful. It also gave better stock utilisation. It was a case of 'if it's not broke etc.' Extending it to Hull could have been more advantageous if the TPE service hadn't moved forward by 30 mins creating close running trains. Ridership on the TPE service fell due to the time shift and a Northern unit transported mostly fresh air to Hull.

 

[yorksrob]

The Northern service to Hull was a curious one for so many reasons.

The real benefit would have been provided as part of a clockface half-hourly timetable. A stop at Howden would also have improved connectivity to a well heeled bit of Yorkshire, yet none of these potential gains were realised.

It also seems strange that last year when tourism was reopening, this service was prioritised for resumption over services West of Skipton which arguably had a far greater potential to generate travel and which were ruined in the case of Bentham, or severely impeded in the case of the Settle-Carlisle.

I support the idea of the additional train to Hull, but it needs to be done more sensibly.

 

[ChrisC]

Are the Northern timetables for May complete now or is there more to come? I just wondered if The Lincoln Service is going to remain just a an all stations Sheffield to Lincoln Service. There doesn’t appear to be any Sheffield to Gainsborough Central services throughout the day to allow Lincoln trains to run non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. Also is it just going to be Sheffield to Lincoln and not Leeds to Lincoln. That means only one semi fast train an hour between Sheffield and Leeds via Barnsley and also cuts the through link between Worksop and Meadowhall.

 

[Glenn1969]

Gainsborough Central services are only loaded for the morning and teatime peaks

 

[theironroad]

Nothing for SWR yet????

 

[SteveyBee131]

Are the Northern timetables for May complete now or is there more to come? I just wondered if The Lincoln Service is going to remain just a an all stations Sheffield to Lincoln Service. There doesn’t appear to be any Sheffield to Gainsborough Central services throughout the day to allow Lincoln trains to run non stop between Sheffield and Worksop. Also is it just going to be Sheffield to Lincoln and not Leeds to Lincoln. That means only one semi fast train an hour between Sheffield and Leeds via Barnsley and also cuts the through link between Worksop and Meadowhall.

It would appear to be the case yes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Nothing for SWR yet????

The finalised plan internally for May was only worked up a few weeks ago so expect it to be one of the last.

 

[theironroad]

The finalised plan internally for May was only worked up a few weeks ago so expect it to be one of the last.

Ok, thanks.

Suppose there'll be an uplift from the current reduced timetables.

 

[southern442]

I'm assuming Southern will remain virtually the same?

 

[Minstral25]

I'm assuming Southern will remain virtually the same?

Only looked at Redhill so far but all looks pretty much the same from Southern and Thameslink

 

[Ianno87]

That’s the latest Norwich-Peterborough service (apart from Sundays) that I have ever known. Slightly later at 20:12 Saturdays. Has always been before 19:00. The current 18:57 Norwich-Nottingham will now run through to Sheffield.

The extra late Norwich-Nottingham presumably now balances the units, so the morning train off Norwich (0651?) that runs as a 4 car for this purpose no longer needs to? Having been on it, 4 cars was pretty generous compared to actual demand...