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London Northwestern Class 730s

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DavidGrain

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730002 has been to Euston and Lime Street on test. I can't imagine anyway the WMR 730s would get there in service. A LNR and WMR coupled together would be an 8 car train which I think would be too long for all except the Birmingham to Coventry service.
 
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Grumpy Git

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730002 has been to Euston and Lime Street on test. I can't imagine anyway the WMR 730s would get there in service. A LNR and WMR coupled together would be an 8 car train which I think would be too long for all except the Birmingham to Coventry service.

The WMR unit which was at Crewe earlier this week only had three cars, are the LNR units five car?
 

DavidGrain

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The WMR unit which was at Crewe earlier this week only had three cars, are the LNR units five car?
730/0 are 3 car units for WMR
730/1 are 5 car units for LNR London Suburban
730/2 are 5 car units for LNR Long distance
 

Silverlinky

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730002 has been to Euston and Lime Street on test. I can't imagine anyway the WMR 730s would get there in service. A LNR and WMR coupled together would be an 8 car train which I think would be too long for all except the Birmingham to Coventry service.
Too long for most of that too as the 730 coaches are 24m long, therefore 8 cars of 730 is 192m long compared to the 162m length of an 8 car 350 formation.

Also 730/0 are limited to 90mph whilst the 1's and 2's are 110mph capable.
 

Grumpy Git

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The three car and five car units can only couple for rescue, not for service

The fact that not all UK rolling stock has the same coupling tells you everything which is wrong with the UK railways.

Not a perfect example, but imagine moving house and having to fit different plugs on all your electrical equipment. Then moving again a few years later only for there to be a different (third) plug needed again.
 
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100andthirty

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The fact that not all UK rolling stock has the same coupling tells you everything which is wrong with the UK railways.

Not a perfect example, but imagine moving house and having to fit different plugs on all your electrical equipment. Then moving again a few years later only for their to be a different (third) plug needed again.
That's not the situation here. The trains can couple for rescue, but the different duties of the /0 and /1 & /2 means that it would be inappropriate to have them in multiple in service - for example the different top speeds.

Would you have a Voyager couple to a class 170 for example?
 

Sprinter107

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Different top speeds would make not a scrap of difference as to why units can't be coupled in service. 170s and 153s regularly worked together, as did 150s and 170s. 75mph vs 100mph.
 

185

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The three car and five car units can only couple for rescue, not for service
Given the current random units go anywhere shenanigan, you just know that the 1715 Euston Birmingham will be two orange WMR ones with an LNR 5-car sellotaped to the back.
 

py_megapixel

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Two orange WMR ones with an LNR 5-car sellotaped to the back.
And would that not be preferable to a 350 (or even a pair of them) which would probably be the alternative?

Yes, mixing different brands in train formations looks unprofessional, but in reality, commuters care whether there's enough space for them to sit or stand comfortably for their journey, not what colour the train is.

Also, on a different note, I think if there was a "most disingenuous description of a piece of railway equipment" award, "sellotape" to describe an autocoupler would win :D
 

TRAX

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The fact that not all UK rolling stock has the same coupling tells you everything which is wrong with the UK railways.

Not a perfect example, but imagine moving house and having to fit different plugs on all your electrical equipment. Then moving again a few years later only for there to be a different (third) plug needed again.

It’s more complicated than that. As rolling stock develops, systems and software changes and it’s logical that a train won’t communicate with a more recent or older one when coupled (eg. Electrostar with Aventra). You can still make the physical and pneumatic connections though (necessary for rescue couplings), and this is more and more possible as more and more trains are fitted with a standard Scharfenberg coupler.
As 100andthirty said, it wasn’t the situation here, but you can have all of your trains trains equipped with the same coupler heads, technological progress means there’ll always be trains that can’t run together in revenue service.
 

Domh245

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Given the current random units go anywhere shenanigan, you just know that the 1715 Euston Birmingham will be two orange WMR ones with an LNR 5-car sellotaped to the back.

I must have missed all those occasions that LM/WMT have tried to send 323s to Euston!
 

Bletchleyite

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I must have missed all those occasions that LM/WMT have tried to send 323s to Euston!

This is true, and nor do I recall seeing the 319s off diagram. LNR isn't quite Northern - it's not completely random, there just doesn't seem to be any consistency in the use of 350s. Which does make one wonder why two variants of WCML 730s have been ordered, as you just know the 2+2 ones will end up on Tring stoppers and the 3+2 ones on Liverpools.
 

southern442

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At this point I don't even know why they bothered with the 3+2 anyways as almost everyone prefers the 2+2 layout. Keeping in mind the middle seats are used very reluctantly, I reckon there wouldn't be a huge reduction in the number of people actually seated, and those that are seated are far more comfortable, and those that stand are probably going to be more comfortable too with the increase in gangway width.
 

Bletchleyite

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At this point I don't even know why they bothered with the 3+2 anyways as almost everyone prefers the 2+2 layout. Keeping in mind the middle seats are used very reluctantly, I reckon there wouldn't be a huge reduction in the number of people actually seated, and those that are seated are far more comfortable, and those that stand are probably going to be more comfortable too with the increase in gangway width.

Probably to tick a box of required capacity from the franchise agreement. I suspect this is now regretted as that capacity will be less needed, but also suspect it was probably too late to change the spec.
 

southern442

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Probably to tick a box of required capacity from the franchise agreement. I suspect this is now regretted as that capacity will be less needed, but also suspect it was probably too late to change the spec.
This reminds me a little of the tradition for lots of South Central mainline services to be a 4CIG (with 2+2 seating) and 4VEP (with 2+3 seating) coupled together, so many of their replacements (the 377s) have a hybrid 2+2 and 2+3 mixed interior. Makes one wonder if that could have happened here!
 

Bletchleyite

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This reminds me a little of the tradition for lots of South Central mainline services to be a 4CIG (with 2+2 seating) and 4VEP (with 2+3 seating) coupled together, so many of their replacements (the 377s) have a hybrid 2+2 and 2+3 mixed interior. Makes one wonder if that could have happened here!

You often get people saying "why can't they put more carriages on towards the barrier" at end-on stations like Euston. This is of course silly, but I have suggested in the past that you should put 3+2 seated units at the London end and 2+2 at the country end, both to encourage people to walk forward and to provide more capacity at the rear.
 

Energy

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Probably to tick a box of required capacity from the franchise agreement. I suspect this is now regretted as that capacity will be less needed, but also suspect it was probably too late to change the spec.
Yep. The 730s (and very similar 720 cousins) have been designed to pack seats in as it looks good on the bid.
 

185

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When I mentioned 'orange WMR ones' in a thread about 730s, I assumed people knew I'd be talking about orange 730s. The one I'm currently stood next to is definitely a 730 & orange.
I must have missed all those occasions that LM/WMT have tried to send 323s to Euston!
323? Meh. Id tie a 230 on the back and see if stays upright past 90 :|:D
 

southern442

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It’s more complicated than that. As rolling stock develops, systems and software changes and it’s logical that a train won’t communicate with a more recent or older one when coupled (eg. Electrostar with Aventra). You can still make the physical and pneumatic connections though (necessary for rescue couplings), and this is more and more possible as more and more trains are fitted with a standard Scharfenberg coupler.
As 100andthirty said, it wasn’t the situation here, but you can have all of your trains trains equipped with the same coupler heads, technological progress means there’ll always be trains that can’t run together in revenue service.
That doesn't mean they can't be specified to be able to run with other MU's though, Obviously not everything is going to be able to run with everything else but you have various MU's up north that are interoperable.
 

100andthirty

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It is a huge issue to deliver the principle of "everything must couple to everything else". A lot has happened since the old Southern buckeye couple, 27 way jumper and twin air hoses. There is a very large number of functions for which there are no UK let alone international standards. Indeed even simple things like relay logic train wires can cause problems because some trains use 24 Vdc and others use 110 Vdc. On the old BR provincial fleet, the interfaces were very simple - along the lines of the old SR days, and it was easy enough for Turbostar to be specified to couple to them. With more and more in-board kit, and fitting things like ETCS it will become increasingly difficult especially with the data systems that send signals up and down the train. I doubt that any of Northern's new trains will couple to the legacy fleet except for recovery.

Let's assume folk put in the effort to create a modern standard: "this coupler at this height will be used from now on and this is the list of functions and their specifications that have to pass across the coupler". What happens the following year when someone comes along with a new function that no one has thought of before? Is that function not allowed, or do those new trains become the exception? And what happens the following year with yet another new function?......and so on. I hope this illustrates why it's hard.
 

43096

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Let's assume folk put in the effort to create a modern standard: "this coupler at this height will be used from now on and this is the list of functions and their specifications that have to pass across the coupler". What happens the following year when someone comes along with a new function that no one has thought of before? Is that function not allowed, or do those new trains become the exception? And what happens the following year with yet another new function?......and so on. I hope this illustrates why it's hard.
It needn't be that hard if it is designed properly. Whilst I accept it is easier, the US AAR multiple working standard has been used since at least the 1950s and is still used now, so a new loco straight off the production line at Wabtec, can multi with a 1950s built EMD loco.
 

supervc-10

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standards.png
 

Grumpy Git

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It needn't be that hard if it is designed properly. Whilst I accept it is easier, the US AAR multiple working standard has been used since at least the 1950s and is still used now, so a new loco straight off the production line at Wabtec, can multi with a 1950s built EMD loco.

Correct, you just need to build in some future proofing by making it modular with spare ways.
 
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