Where is the North-South divide?

[Old Yard Dog]

In my youth, I always thought that the first hint of a cockney accent started at Leicester!

Now, as a fan of a football club in National League North, I have had over the years to travel to places like Bishop Stortford, Histon, Lowestoft, Gloucester, Kings Lynn, Brackley, Hereford and Oxford. And the travel distances will get longer in coming years thanks to a recent re-organization of the football pyramid.

For what its worth, I think the north starts at Stoke and Chesterfield and anywhere south of there is the midlands or south.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

So where is Cheshire? It is south of the River Mersey and was part of Mercia, and the south of the county has close links with the North Midlands (Stoke). However, the development of Manchester and Liverpool has meant that its northern parts have effectively been linked socio-economically to historic Lancashire and become part of Northern England.

The name Mersey is old English for border, it's a midland county, same with Derbyshire which includes some Sheffield "overspill" estates. Sometimes urban areas can be across borders, such as Istanbul being in both Europe and Asia, or Todmorden being in both Lancashire and Yorkshire.

None of these places are in the north. The only ones open for discussion are Sheffield and Grimsby. @AlterEgo has it just about right. The real north is between the Tees and the Tweed.

Grimsby certainly feels northern!

What makes Grimsby feel Northern more so than say Boston, another Lincolnshire fishing town? Is it the local shops (like Boyes), or having to go through Doncaster, want to clarify "northern feel" in measurable terms.
Grimsby is no different visually from any other town that had 20th Century industry and lost most of it, Midland, Northern, or Southern examples exist. Cleethorpes, Hartlepool, Margate, do the seaside resorts have different feelings too?

 

[Horizon22]

I've always thought the regions map does a fairly good job of this - and yes the Midlands does exist - although the East Midlands and West Midlands perhaps reach a bit too fair into the North. Like others, I am a fan of the Stoke/Mansfield line that then curves around Newark.

What makes Grimsby feel Northern more so than say Boston, another Lincolnshire fishing town?

Probably the fact its geographically about 40 miles further north. About the same difference between Stoke and Birmingham (centre).

 

[Beemax]

I think there's a 'mushy pea line'. As a southerner attending Loughborough university I was amused to find that all the fish and chip shops there served mushy peas as a more or less compulsory accompaniment. I subsequently determined whether somewhere was north or south depending on the probability of mushy peas being served. I wouldn't say the mushy pea line is necessarily a straight one, but it definitely runs south of Loughborough and Birmingham.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think there's a 'mushy pea line'. As a southerner attending Loughborough university I was amused to find that all the fish and chip shops there served mushy peas as a more or less compulsory accompaniment. I subsequently determined whether somewhere was north or south depending on the probability of mushy peas being served. I wouldn't say the mushy pea line is necessarily a straight one, but it definitely runs south of Loughborough and Birmingham.

Mushy peas in Birmingham were generally a marginal product when I lived there. Curry sauce was the accompaniment of choice!

 

[Djgr]

It's easy to find the North/South divide through following the universal truth.

In the South it's considered rude to talk to strangers.

In the North it's considered rude not to.

 

[D6130]

If you include the West Mids (excluding Birmingham) and Corby in the "north", surely the definition is quite clear?

To be honest, I think that Corby would count as a detached part of Scotland! Could be interesting when Scotland becomes independent!

 

[ABB125]

I think there's a 'mushy pea line'. As a southerner attending Loughborough university I was amused to find that all the fish and chip shops there served mushy peas as a more or less compulsory accompaniment. I subsequently determined whether somewhere was north or south depending on the probability of mushy peas being served. I wouldn't say the mushy pea line is necessarily a straight one, but it definitely runs south of Loughborough and Birmingham.

The only place where I've been served pea mush mushy peas is the pub at Paddington station in 2012, when my dad took me to the Natural History Museum for my birthday. Since then, mushy peas have very firmly been off the menu!

Mushy peas in Birmingham were generally a marginal product when I lived there. Curry sauce was the accompaniment of choice!

I've not come across curry sauce in the last year. Admittedly the last year has been somewhat abnormal, with student activities (eating out etc) rather lacking...

 

[birchesgreen]

Mushy peas in Birmingham were generally a marginal product when I lived there. Curry sauce was the accompaniment of choice!

I'm not sure this is true bab, mushy peas always seem to be the main thing to me

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When we lived from 2005 to 2020 in what is described as "The Cheshire Golden Triangle", you would have thought the Sussex and Hampshire areas had an adjoining areas spirited away and appeared "up north". God bless St Waitrose !!

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure this is true bab, mushy peas always seem to be the main thing to me

Well it was some time ago. But I never saw anyone have the green stuff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Mushy peas are de rigueur in the Lancashire belt from Blackburn to Colne.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Mushy peas are de rigueur in the Lancashire belt from Blackburn to Colne.

Also sometimes known as "Manchester caviar"!

 

[Butts]

Not one of those places listed is in the north. I am getting bored of saying this............................

I would take north of Doncaster/Sheffield as a starting point with the real north being the area between the Tees and the Tweed.

PS my view is the correct one. I am northern. I decide where the north starts. Only the north east is the true north.

You lost that right when you sold out and decamped to Buckinghamshire.

North East to me is Aberdeen / Aberdeenshire not some "Southern Excrement Tip" abounding the River Tyne

 

[Springs Branch]

I think there's a 'mushy pea line'............ I wouldn't say the mushy pea line is necessarily a straight one, but it definitely runs south of Loughborough and Birmingham.

As a former fish & chip shop aficionado (before my cardiologist intervened), I think you could be onto something with this Mushy Pea Line.

It might even achieve the status of that other dodgy-comestible-based measure - The Economist magazine's Big Mac Index. The Big Mac Index was originally dreamed up as a bit of a larf, but subsequently found to be quite useful and accurate.

The big mac index was invented by The Economist in 1986 as a lighthearted guide to whether currencies are at their “correct” level. It is based on the theory of purchasing-power parity (PPP), the notion that in the long run exchange rates should move towards the rate that would equalise the prices of an identical basket of goods and services (in this case, a burger) in any two countries.

Burgernomics was never intended as a precise gauge of currency misalignment, merely a tool to make exchange-rate theory more digestible. Yet the Big Mac index has become a global standard, included in several economic textbooks and the subject of dozens of academic studies.

The question is - is there also a Deep Fried Mars Bar / Deep Fried Pizza line, and how closely does it correspond to Hadrian's Wall?

 

[Diplodicus]

Brought up in SW London, "north" started when I crossed Wandsworth Bridge into alien Fulham. Fast foward to 1968 and my first RAF posting to Topcliffe (between Thirsk and Ripon). Four of us shared a car journey up the A1 and were all equally bemused by a traffic sign at the Retford junction that pointed to "The North". as far as we were concerned, we'd been in The North since the A406 North Circular!

Some years later, I spotted signposts to "The North" on the Aberdeen Ring Road and then round Inverness.

I guess nobody really wants to live inn The North?

 

[nlogax]

Some years later, I spotted signposts to "The North" on the Aberdeen Ring Road and then round Inverness.

I guess nobody really wants to live inn The North?

I've come to the conclusion that 'The North' is actually a small island just off the coast of John o'Groats. No-one actually ever gets there.

 

[Kilopylae]

When we lived from 2005 to 2020 in what is described as "The Cheshire Golden Triangle", you would have thought the Sussex and Hampshire areas had an adjoining areas spirited away and appeared "up north". God bless St Waitrose !!

I know someone who moved from Devon to Cheshire and they said it felt more like moving south than north

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So where is Cheshire? It is south of the River Mersey and was part of Mercia, and the south of the county has close links with the North Midlands (Stoke). However, the development of Manchester and Liverpool has meant that its northern parts have effectively been linked socio-economically to historic Lancashire and become part of Northern England.

Not only that, Chester is also on the linguistic/cultural/political border between Welsh and English (having for centuries been the principal English fort in the Marches).
And there's the other major "north-east/south-west" divide, that between the Danelaw and Saxons, which was roughly along the line of the modern A5/A41.
And most Cheshire cheese is made in Shropshire...

Anywhere that uses the long "a" (as in castle/carsell, last/larst) is "the south (east)".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Listen to the pronunciation of "Himalayas" as one example of South v North.

Victoria Wood had great insight into the North v South divide and saw this as fertile ground for her sketch-writing. She used the actress Susie Blake to great effect in short clips portraying a "posh" BBC announcer and weather forecaster, where Victoria Wood took delight in making fun of the "Home Counties" always being the major area in weather forecasts and Susie Blake was superb in one sketch where 95% of the forecast was devoted to the South East and then she ended by saying "...and for you people in the North, it must be awful for you living up there"....

 

[DarloRich]

You lost that right when you sold out and decamped to Buckinghamshire.

au contraire - that gives me a much wider base of knowledge.

 

[py_megapixel]

au contraire - that gives me a much wider base of knowledge.

I think if you believe the North to be north of Doncaster, and just draw a straight west-east line through there, then you have some rather annoyed Mancunians and Liverpudlians, who would probably take offence at being told they were southern!

Similarly that puts the majority of the Peak District National Park in the South, which feels wrong to me.

 

[ABB125]

Anywhere that uses the long "a" (as in castle/carsell, last/larst) is "the south (east)".

Don't you mean anyone who speaks correctly is in the south?

"Graaaas" and "Baaaath" are what I say, psychologically I just cannot bring myself to say "Glasgow" with an "apple" A. My dad, on the other hand, errs on the side of a short A, despite being born and growing up where we live (though he's possibly influenced by having Geordie heritage). My mum is very much a long A.
I would agree, though, that this can be an indicator of north/south. One of my cousins, who grew up in Manchester, is firmly in the short A category!

 

[DarloRich]

I think if you believe the North to be north of Doncaster, and just draw a straight west-east line through there, then you have some rather annoyed Mancunians and Liverpudlians, who would probably take offence at being told they were southern!

Similarly that puts the majority of the Peak District National Park in the South, which feels wrong to me.

All places in the south......................

I would draw a wiggly line: Grimsby> Scunthorpe> Doncaster > Sheffield> Round the peak district> Under Manchester > to a point somewhere near Runcorn.

The area between there and the Tees will form a sacrificial buffer zone to protect the true north: The land betwixt Tees and Tweed.

"Graaaas" and "Baaaath" are what I say,

Sensible chap. No idea where Barth is. I know where Bath is. Don't get me started on cockneys trying to pronounce Newcastle! Where is NUcarstle?

 

[notlob.divad]

Watford Gap, not Watford itself.

Same-Same

 

[Djgr]

Not only that, Chester is also on the linguistic/cultural/political border between Welsh and English (having for centuries been the principal English fort in the Marches).
And there's the other major "north-east/south-west" divide, that between the Danelaw and Saxons, which was roughly along the line of the modern A5/A41.
And most Cheshire cheese is made in Shropshire...

Anywhere that uses the long "a" (as in castle/carsell, last/larst) is "the south (east)".

Don't forget that some of Chester's suburbs are in Wales, as well as (famously) half its football ground.

"Higher Saltney, known locally as "Top Saltney" (part of the area known locally as Saltney) is in Chester, Cheshire. The Welsh sector of the community is known as Saltney Town. The England–Wales border runs down the middle of Boundary Lane, the only urban street in England and Wales where this happens"

 

[317 forever]

Don't forget that some of Chester's suburbs are in Wales, as well as (famously) half its football ground.

"Higher Saltney, known locally as "Top Saltney" (part of the area known locally as Saltney) is in Chester, Cheshire. The Welsh sector of the community is known as Saltney Town. The England–Wales border runs down the middle of Boundary Lane, the only urban street in England and Wales where this happens"

Even the Arriva Chester bus depot is in Wales apparently.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The reason why parts of Chester are in Wales, is that the current borders of Wales, and all of Wales' counties, were only established after Wales became part of the English kingdom in the middle ages. Formerly Welsh towns such as Llanymynech, and formerly English towns such as Wrexham, became stuck on the wrong sides of the border... as there wasn't an international border so it didn't really matter. It's only in the 20th Century that Wales started to be promoted as a separate nation with a new flag, an assembly, the legal recognition regarding it as part of England being revoked (Wales and Berwick Act), Welsh language being promoted and signs, and formally gaining Monmouthshire. The cultural boundary between England and Wales would likely follow Offa's Embankment loosely, the old frontier.

I wonder though on where the North / South line is drawn in Wales by forum members there.

 

[daodao]

The reason why parts of Chester are in Wales, is that the current borders of Wales, and all of Wales' counties, were only established after Wales became part of the English kingdom in the middle ages. Formerly Welsh towns such as Llanymynech, and formerly English towns such as Wrexham, became stuck on the wrong sides of the border... as there wasn't an international border so it didn't really matter. It's only in the 20th Century that Wales started to be promoted as a separate nation with a new flag, an assembly, the legal recognition regarding it as part of England being revoked (Wales and Berwick Act), Welsh language being promoted and signs, and formally gaining Monmouthshire. The cultural boundary between England and Wales would likely follow Offa's Embankment loosely, the old frontier.

I wonder though on where the North / South line is drawn in Wales by forum members there.

I thought that the Gog dialect is spoken north of the Dyfi estuary/Afon Dyfi, but the boundary further east may be less clear nearer the English border, as much of Montgomeryshire (Maldwyn) is predominantly English-speaking.

 

[Djgr]

The reason why parts of Chester are in Wales, is that the current borders of Wales, and all of Wales' counties, were only established after Wales became part of the English kingdom in the middle ages. Formerly Welsh towns such as Llanymynech, and formerly English towns such as Wrexham, became stuck on the wrong sides of the border... as there wasn't an international border so it didn't really matter. It's only in the 20th Century that Wales started to be promoted as a separate nation with a new flag, an assembly, the legal recognition regarding it as part of England being revoked (Wales and Berwick Act), Welsh language being promoted and signs, and formally gaining Monmouthshire. The cultural boundary between England and Wales would likely follow Offa's Embankment loosely, the old frontier.

I wonder though on where the North / South line is drawn in Wales by forum members there.

And of course the role, if any, that mid Wales plays.

To start the ball rolling (from a railway point of view) I would perceive Harlech as North Wales and Barmouth as Mid Wales.