Where is the North-South divide?

[daodao]

And of course the role, if any, that mid Wales plays.

To start the ball rolling (from a railway point of view) I would perceive Harlech as North Wales and Barmouth as Mid Wales.

Barmouth is in Meirionnydd (part of Gwynedd) and thus in North Wales.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder though on where the North / South line is drawn in Wales by forum members there.

I too wonder that when Glamorgan decide to play a "home fixture" County Cricket match at Colwyn Bay....

 

[Cletus]

I did once hear of a football match between (I think) Dover and Woking and the Dover fans were chanting “You dirty northern b*****ds”!

Virtually every team north of Dover gets called that.

Once, many years ago, at Canterbury City!

 

[SargeNpton]

Well, this is definitely in the north.

 

[Djgr]

Well, this is definitely in the north.
View attachment 99145

Although the North of Shetland is around another 220 miles away!

Not only that, Chester is also on the linguistic/cultural/political border between Welsh and English (having for centuries been the principal English fort in the Marches).
And there's the other major "north-east/south-west" divide, that between the Danelaw and Saxons, which was roughly along the line of the modern A5/A41.
And most Cheshire cheese is made in Shropshire...

Anywhere that uses the long "a" (as in castle/carsell, last/larst) is "the south (east)".

Personally I regard Liverpool as a Celtic rather than a Northern city. Those who don't have Irish roots have Welsh roots instead. It certainly has little cultural commonality with the likes of Yorkshire.

 

[Trackman]

I think there's a 'mushy pea line'. As a southerner attending Loughborough university I was amused to find that all the fish and chip shops there served mushy peas as a more or less compulsory accompaniment. I subsequently determined whether somewhere was north or south depending on the probability of mushy peas being served. I wouldn't say the mushy pea line is necessarily a straight one, but it definitely runs south of Loughborough and Birmingham.

Reminds me of someone going into a chip-shop in Southsea (I was there!).
They asked for pudding, chips, peas, gravy and scraps.
The guy behind the counter said 'You're from up North, we don't do 'puddings''
The lad says, ok- chips, peas, gravy and scraps then please.
'We don't do peas' and so on..

Anyway, there is a chip shop on Lewisham high street that do mushy peas, gravy and curry.

 

[BrianW]

In my mind, anywhere that was ever part of the Kingdom of Northumbria, can be called The North, anywhere that was in Mercia can be called The Midlands, and anywhere in that was ever in Wessex can be called The West, anywhere in East Anglia is the East, and Essex, Sussex lot is the South-East.

There is no North/South Divide, it's just a slur that implies everyone in the North is worse off than everyone in the South, when it's not true. You get bigger divides locally going from a terraced street to a street with manors within a mile in most towns, the differences on a region basis are less drastic.

In (Anglican) church matters, England is divided into two provinces, York and Canterbury, that is probably the only official division of England into a North and South.

The Church of England: the Province of York comprises 12 dioceses including the Dioceses of Chester; Sheffield; and Southwell & Nottingham; south of them is the Province of Canterbury (31 dioceses) including the dioceses of Lichfield, Derby, Leicester and Lincoln. So Stoke-on-Trent, Derby, Glossop, Grantham, Grimsby 'down south'; Crewe, Nottingham, Newark 'up north'.

Often wondered about football 'divide' Third Division (North) and (south); how did they manage relegations from Division Two? I imagine the North/ South dividing line might change on occasion- if so something for a change in focus and opponents for this or that 'midland' team, esp if also accompanied by loss of teams that failed in 'seeking re-election to the Football League'- typically IIRC Southport, Stockport, Workington, Accrington Stanley ... An economic drift from 'grim up north' to 'effete southern' also seen atop the 'football pyramid' more recently- less Wilf Mannion and Stans Matthews and Mortensen, more Matt Le Tissier and Sir Alf Ramsey. Premier League 2021/22, 7 'northern'; 13 'southern' (using CofE 'definition'!). Heading off-track somewhat ...

 

[Djgr]

Reminds me of someone going into a chip-shop in Southsea (I was there!).
They asked for pudding, chips, peas, gravy and scraps.
The guy behind the counter said 'You're from up North, we don't do 'puddings''
The lad says, ok- chips, peas, gravy and scraps then please.
'We don't do peas' and so on..

Anyway, there is a chip shop on Lewisham high street that do mushy peas, gravy and curry.

Chinese takeaways in Essex can't cope with "half and half" which as any fule kno is half rice half chips.

 

[route101]

Reminds me of someone going into a chip-shop in Southsea (I was there!).
They asked for pudding, chips, peas, gravy and scraps.
The guy behind the counter said 'You're from up North, we don't do 'puddings''
The lad says, ok- chips, peas, gravy and scraps then please.
'We don't do peas' and so on..

Anyway, there is a chip shop on Lewisham high street that do mushy peas, gravy and curry.

Being Scottish its funny when I ask for a black pudding (or any main) supper in English chippies. In Scotland supper is with chips. Dont think peas feature in Scottish Chippies.

Or when I ask for a roll in a chippy!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Often wondered about football 'divide' Third Division (North) and (south); how did they manage relegations from Division Two? I imagine the North/ South dividing line might change on occasion- if so something for a change in focus and opponents for this or that 'midland' team.

Not been Division(s) Three (North) and (South) for over sixty years, but a similar situation currently happens at National League level, where, in a normal season, four teams are normally relegated down to the National League North / National League South level (replaced by the lower divisions' champions and play off winners).

If all four relegated teams are from up North, then the two Southernmost teams in National League North are liable to lateral movement to National League South, can also move vice-versa, a fate which has befallen the likes of Gloucester City and Bishops Stortford (and possibly also Histon) in the past, and so will have been designated both as a 'North' and a 'South' club, albeit in different seasons obviously!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Barmouth is in Meirionnydd (part of Gwynedd) and thus in North Wales.

As noted upthread the boundaries of Derbyshire are completely unreliable as a divider for the North. I would suggest the same is true of Gwynedd in Wales.

Personally I regard Liverpool as a Celtic rather than a Northern city. Those who don't have Irish roots have Welsh roots instead. It certainly has little cultural commonality with the likes of Yorkshire.

Except that both have little affection for Mancunia.

Being Scottish its funny when I ask for a black pudding (or any main) supper in English chippies. In Scotland supper is with chips. Dont think peas feature in Scottish Chippies.

Or when I ask for a roll in a chippy!

And as an Englishman I never fail to be surprised by the Scottish love of the fryer for just about everything. I once ordered a pie: it wasn't very hot so it was treated to a brief spell in the fryer. The result however was more than acceptable.

Not been Division(s) Three (North) and (South) for over sixty years, but a similar situation currently happens at National League level, where, in a normal season, four teams are normally relegated down to the National League North / National League South level (replaced by the lower divisions' champions and play off winners).

If all four relegated teams are from up North, then the two Southernmost teams in National League North are liable to lateral movement to National League South, can also move vice-versa, a fate which has befallen the likes of Gloucester City and Bishops Stortford (and possibly also Histon) in the past, and so will have been designated both as a 'North' and a 'South' club, albeit in different seasons obviously!

As a boy I was fascinated by my father's collection of football annuals (both Rothmans and News of the World). Perusal of these showed that various teams were occasional movers between regional divisions even in the old Southern League: I think Merthyr were one of those. And I'm pretty sure you're right about Histon.

 

[daodao]

As noted upthread the boundaries of Derbyshire are completely unreliable as a divider for the North. I would suggest the same is true of Gwynedd in Wales.

The Gog dialect is spoken in Gwynedd, including Meirionnydd. As I stated in an earlier post, the N-S border is approximately at Machynlleth, on Afon Dyfi.

 

[Djgr]

The Gog dialect is spoken in Gwynedd, including Meirionnydd. As I stated in an earlier post, the N-S border is approximately at Machynlleth, on Afon Dyfi.

So do we abandon the idea of Mid Wales as a thing?

Not been Division(s) Three (North) and (South) for over sixty years, but a similar situation currently happens at National League level, where, in a normal season, four teams are normally relegated down to the National League North / National League South level (replaced by the lower divisions' champions and play off winners).

If all four relegated teams are from up North, then the two Southernmost teams in National League North are liable to lateral movement to National League South, can also move vice-versa, a fate which has befallen the likes of Gloucester City and Bishops Stortford (and possibly also Histon) in the past, and so will have been designated both as a 'North' and a 'South' club, albeit in different seasons obviously!

Another fun thing is to look at which was the English Club furthest from Wales that played in the Welsh Cup final (before they were banned). A brief look online suggested Stourbridge Town!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Gog dialect is spoken in Gwynedd, including Meirionnydd. As I stated in an earlier post, the N-S border is approximately at Machynlleth, on Afon Dyfi.

While language and dialect are certainly important cultural identifiers they do not always tell the full story. People in Buxton speak with a softened Derbyshire accent but the town is definitely in the North and its' residents identify much more closely with Manchester than they do Derby.

I suspect this thread is exposing the limitations of the original question. Elements of the media may delight in talking about a North/South gap or divide but doing so ignores the fact that there is a distinct English Midlands just as Mid-Wales is also a valid concept. And the simplification also ignores the fact that (far) South West England is quite distinct from The South.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

France had it easy that the south / north divide was covered by whether you cooked with butter (north) ,or olive oil (south) - ditto with roofing being either slates or terracota tiles.


Personally , I think you are "north" by passing Norton Bridge on the WCML towards Manchester or Stoke and seeing that quite distinctive red brick housing. Other building materials may apply.

 

[83A]

I’m from Devon so for me anything above Peterborough is where you get coal and gravy on chips.

 

[eMeS]

Northern vs southern accents...
I'm from the Manchester area, and did National Service (RAF) from 1957-1959. My entry was largely Londoners with a few from the "north" - Manchester and southern Yorkshire. Us northerners were mercilessly mocked for our accents by the Londoners, and it certainly had me listening to myself more carefully. When I did get to University, I was fully accepted - either because the accent wasn't considered important, or perhaps because I'd changed my accent.
One true anecdote from my period in the RAF is telling. I was in Hanover, Germany and meeting the early morning train from Berlin to receive the diplomatic bag, and I said just two words to the soldier handing the bag to me - "Good Morning", to which his reply was, "...and which part of Stockport are you from?" I was from Cheadle, Cheshire adjacent to the borough of Stockport.

 

[Butts]

Being Scottish its funny when I ask for a black pudding (or any main) supper in English chippies. In Scotland supper is with chips. Dont think peas feature in Scottish Chippies.

Or when I ask for a roll in a chippy!

"Salt and sauce anyone......."

 

[BrianW]

Northern vs southern accents...
I'm from the Manchester area, and did National Service (RAF) from 1957-1959. My entry was largely Londoners with a few from the "north" - Manchester and southern Yorkshire. Us northerners were mercilessly mocked for our accents by the Londoners, and it certainly had me listening to myself more carefully. When I did get to University, I was fully accepted - either because the accent wasn't considered important, or perhaps because I'd changed my accent.
One true anecdote from my period in the RAF is telling. I was in Hanover, Germany and meeting the early morning train from Berlin to receive the diplomatic bag, and I said just two words to the soldier handing the bag to me - "Good Morning", to which his reply was, "...and which part of Stockport are you from?" I was from Cheadle, Cheshire adjacent to the borough of Stockport.

The poet Ian McMillan speaks of something called an 'isogloss'- a line across which accent and/or dialect changes:

Review: The ‘arse that Jack Built – BBC Radio4

Ian McMillan goes on a quest to find one of Britain’s strangest linguistic features. Somewhere between Sheffield and Chesterfield, people stop saying house and say something that sounds a lot…

everythingexpress.wordpress.com

BBC Radio 4 Extra - The 'arse that Jack Built

Ian McMillan goes in search of one of Britain's strangest linguistic features...

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[eMeS]

The poet Ian McMillan speaks of something called an 'isogloss'- a line across which accent and/or dialect changes:

Review: The ‘arse that Jack Built – BBC Radio4

Ian McMillan goes on a quest to find one of Britain’s strangest linguistic features. Somewhere between Sheffield and Chesterfield, people stop saying house and say something that sounds a lot…

everythingexpress.wordpress.com

BBC Radio 4 Extra - The 'arse that Jack Built

Ian McMillan goes in search of one of Britain's strangest linguistic features...

www.bbc.co.uk

Oh dear!
If there's someone I can't stand, it's Ian McMillan, but only because of the way he sounds. Perhaps he's reminding me of my former life with a Manchester/Stockport accent; or perhaps it's because I moved to the South for work in 1962, and have lived here since then.

 

[D6130]

Oh dear!
If there's someone I can't stand, it's Ian McMillan, but only because of the way he sounds. Perhaps he's reminding me of my former life with a Manchester/Stockport accent; or perhaps it's because I moved to the South for work in 1962, and have lived here since then.

Really? The 'Bard of Barnsley' was brought up in Cudworth, now I believe in South Yorkshire, which has a very different accent from either Manchester or Stockport. However, I believe that his father moved from Lanarkshire in Scotland to maintain employment in the mining industry.

 

[BrianW]

Oh dear!
If there's someone I can't stand, it's Ian McMillan, but only because of the way he sounds. Perhaps he's reminding me of my former life with a Manchester/Stockport accent; or perhaps it's because I moved to the South for work in 1962, and have lived here since then.

Imagining a Milton Keynes voice Brummie/ Cockney/ Oxbridge?

 

[eMeS]

Imagining a Milton Keynes voice Brummie/ Cockney/ Oxbridge?

Not Brummie, nor Cockney - but there's plenty on here elsewhere about a new East-West Rail Line which one decade may connect Oxford & Cambridge, but I fear I'll be long gone...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

"Often wondered about football 'divide' Third Division (North) and (south)"...

Thought these football maps showing the loosely defined boundaries in Steps 3 & 4 are relevant.
The definitions of the Southern, Northern, and Isthmian regions have huge variation from one step to the next, so clearly teams are indeed moved around upon relegation sometimes (Note Merthyr Town are in Southern region, and Wrexham are in Northern region).

 

[Manclad83]

Really? The 'Bard of Barnsley' was brought up in Cudworth, now I believe in South Yorkshire, which has a very different accent from either Manchester or Stockport. However, I believe that his father moved from Lanarkshire in Scotland to maintain employment in the mining industry.

As some who spent my first 19 years in Barnsley and the subsequent 19 in Manchester, I can most definitely say that the two accents have little in common and sound very different.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The mental North is anywhere more than 90 minutes on a fast train from London!

 

[py_megapixel]

The mental North is anywhere more than 90 minutes on a fast train from London!

Was not aware that Norwich and Margate were in the north. Appreciate the information

 

[ChrisC]

Definitely the most precise measurement so far on this thread, but I have a few issues with it :

- Stoke on Trent is in the south
- Chesterfield can't make its mind up
- Mansfield, Bolsover, Shirebrook - the Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire coal towns are in the south, whereas historically they are linked much more to South Yorks

I think, rather than a straight line (blue), my amended version of this would look something like the red line here:

View attachment 99075

I think the red line is the most accurate I have seen. The line definitely goes through counties like Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Lincolnshire. The north and south of these counties feel very different. Cities like Nottingham and Derby are very much cities of the Midlands and therefore by most people would be considered to be in the south. Towns in the north of these counties like Mansfield, Worksop and Chesterfield definitely feel like the north. A trip on the Robin Hood Line from Nottingham to Mansfield and Worksop really does feel like you are moving between the two. You don’t have to travel many miles out of Nottingham before it feels like you are definitely in the north.

One thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet is television areas. The south of the counties I have mentioned are all in the Midlands or East Midlands regions for tv. The north of these counties are in the Yorkshire or North West regions.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the red line is the most accurate I have seen. The line definitely goes through counties like Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Lincolnshire. The north and south of these counties feel very different. Cities like Nottingham and Derby are very much cities of the Midlands and therefore by most people would be considered to be in the south. Towns in the north of these counties like Mansfield, Worksop and Chesterfield definitely feel like the north. A trip on the Robin Hood Line from Nottingham to Mansfield and Worksop really does feel like you are moving between the two. You don’t have to travel many miles out of Nottingham before it feels like you are definitely in the north.

One thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet is television areas. The south of the counties I have mentioned are all in the Midlands or East Midlands regions for tv. The north of these counties are in the Yorkshire or North West regions.

Maybe there’s a salient around Mansfield - I don’t know the area well. However I do know the Potteries and Derbyshire better. In the former, Kidsgrove feels very much a part of Stoke, which is in the Midlands and thus South, but Alsager feels very much a part of Cheshire and thus north. Similarly a good friend who grew up in Matlock (and played for Matlock FC) is adamant he’s from the Midlands, and thus South.

 

[birchesgreen]

I thought Kidsgrove felt a bit more North to me though you could argue for either.