Should Northern scrap direct trains between Cumbria and Manchester?

[MattRat]

The Royal Mail platform will be opened to passengers in lieu of the south facing bay platforms which will be closed as part of HS2 works, but what will happen to the Ormskirk and Colne services or the possibility of a future service to Southport which will need to use that platform?

As far as I'm aware, they aren't reopening the Burscough curves full stop, so that makes Southport moot. However, that also means the only extension of the Liverpool to Ormskirk line left is to Preston, and as a much larger operation than the current Ormskirk to Preston shuttle, I feel they'd get access to a major platform somehow.

 

[Starmill]

The Royal Mail platform will be opened to passengers in lieu of the south facing bay platforms which will be closed as part of HS2 works, but what will happen to the Ormskirk and Colne services or the possibility of a future service to Southport which will need to use that platform?

Four through platforms should be sufficient to accommodate down HS2 services, residual down WCML services, Blackpool services and a terminating service. It is just not an issue. No Southport service is proposed. Some up trains can also use the three through platforms on the other side of the station.

 

[Philip]

Is this really necccesary? We already have a 0422 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport for this purpose, arriving at Manchester Oxford Road at 0820. Its all of 8 minutes connection at Oxenholme into it.

Why is it such a long journey at just under 4 hours? The other TPE services do Glasgow amd Edinburgh to Manchester Oxford Road in about 3 hours 10 minutes.

 

[Starmill]

Why is it such a long journey at just under 4 hours? The other TPE services do Glasgow amd Edinburgh to Manchester Oxford Road in about 3 hours 10 minutes.

Because it is so early in the morning, it's overtaken between Glasgow and Carlisle and uses some rare routes.

 

[507020]

As far as I'm aware, they aren't reopening the Burscough curves full stop, so that makes Southport moot. However, that also means the only extension of the Liverpool to Ormskirk line left is to Preston, and as a much larger operation than the current Ormskirk to Preston shuttle, I feel they'd get access to a major platform somehow.

You can't guarantee that the Burscough Curves definitely won't reopen ever. If the north curve does at all however infinitely far in the future then it and Southport will still require the use of the Royal Mail platform. Thats not to say you couldn't reverse EMUs there until a solution has been devised to allow the restoration of through services to Barrow and Windermere, whether in the form of electrification, batteries or bi-modes and resolve the Burscough Curves at the same time. It may be as simple as running the Barrow and Windermere services through to Southport via the mail platform using the wires on the WCML with Diesel or battery at both ends, but that isn't the biggest problem. On winter Sundays the bay platforms are also used to stable a 158 for most of the day between runs to Hellifield via Clitheroe. Where will it go in future other than sitting occupying the mail platform?

Four through platforms should be sufficient to accommodate down HS2 services, residual down WCML services, Blackpool services and a terminating service. It is just not an issue. No Southport service is proposed. Some up trains can also use the three through platforms on the other side of the station.

What about the up HS2/WCML services? I am aware that the EMUs from Liverpool and Manchester as well as the 195 from York are only run through to Blackpool North for the purpose of keeping Preston clear of terminating trains running local services from both directions, with the consequence of providing Blackpool (but not Lytham or Fleetwood) an exellent service which it rightfully deserves. I doubt that in the long term there will be the capacity to terminate an additional service from Mannchester at either Preston or Blackpool North should it be cut back from Barrow or Windermere and also if Preston is at capacity this further damages the case which is still to be made for the Burscough Curve, despite Southport being 3 miles closer to Preston than Blackpool is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those Manchester to Barrow services do seem quite busy when I catch them at Carnforth. I think that the railway has more to lose by getting rid.

They are, but in my experience they often experience a near complete turnover of passengers at Lancaster, with people being more likely to connect to London than Manchester.

 

[daodao]

Are you proposing that some of TPE's rights between Oxenholme and Glasgow / Edinburgh should be given up?

All of them should go - I would withdraw all TPE services between NW England and Scotland, via both the WCML and the ECML.

An occasional service could be provided by Avanti WC, e.g. 1 morning train (afternoon on Sundays) from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow Central via Preston, with an evening return. There would still be 2 tph express trains between Preston and Scotland for connections.

As for the question posed in the title thread (Should Northern scrap direct trains between Cumbria and Manchester?), I agree. There is a bay platform at Oxenholme for the Windermere shuttle, but it would be better if the Barrow service extends to Preston for additional connections.

 

[yorksrob]

They are, but in my experience they often experience a near complete turnover of passengers at Lancaster, with people being more likely to connect to London than Manchester.

And doubtless many people (including myself over the past year) using them from Manchester to Lancaster.

All of them should go - I would withdraw all TPE services between NW England and Scotland, via both the WCML and the ECML.

An occasional service could be provided by Avanti WC, e.g. 1 morning train (afternoon on Sundays) from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow Central via Preston, with an evening return. There would still be 2 tph express trains between Preston and Scotland for connections.

On what basis ? Those trains are often full !

 

[adamedwards]

If the Windermere branch gets a passing loop it can go to a regular every 30 mins service, so no need for the branch trains to change times to meet every main line train as most people won't have too long to wait. That then also enables a regular path from Oxenholme to Manchester. In the March to October holiday season a three car DMU on the branch is normally (pre covid) well filled, so not much difference from a four car. Given the current vogue for staycations the Windermere branch will bounce back fast than some commuter routes once we are out of the current Omicron wave. So the medium term ought to be electric and clockface timings.

 

[Starmill]

What about the up HS2/WCML services?

They can use the three through up platforms?

 

[Bletchleyite]

All of them should go - I would withdraw all TPE services between NW England and Scotland, via both the WCML

Utterly, utterly ridiculous. Why on earth would you break the direct connection between England's second/third city (depending who you ask) and Scotland's first and second, relegating it to taking a semifast regional service and a connection?

These services load very well (north of Preston far better than many Avanti services) and may even be profitable.

The only thing I would consider changing about them is that instead of running hourly 5 car trains it might be better to run two-hourly ten car trains splitting and joining at Carlisle or Carstairs, freeing up a two hourly path for something else e.g. better timed Windermeres.

(I agree about via the ECML but these are not coming back)

 

[Starmill]

All of them should go - I would withdraw all TPE services between NW England and Scotland, via both the WCML and the ECML.

An occasional service could be provided by Avanti WC, e.g. 1 morning train (afternoon on Sundays) from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow Central via Preston, with an evening return. There would still be 2 tph express trains between Preston and Scotland for connections.

As for the question posed in the title thread (Should Northern scrap direct trains between Cumbria and Manchester?), I agree. There is a bay platform at Oxenholme for the Windermere shuttle, but it would be better if the Barrow service extends to Preston for additional connections.

So Manchester to Windermere would be two changes? What would be the benefits of any of this?

If long distance intercity markets between the some of the largest economic areas in the country such as Manchester and Edinburgh, which are strong commercial performers and have been for years, don't merit through services then almost no service in the country will. You may as well suggest withdrawal of trains between Bristol and Birmingham or Newcastle and Leeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Windermere branch gets a passing loop it can go to a regular every 30 mins service, so no need for the branch trains to change times to meet every main line train as most people won't have too long to wait. That then also enables a regular path from Oxenholme to Manchester. In the March to October holiday season a three car DMU on the branch is normally (pre covid) well filled, so not much difference from a four car. Given the current vogue for staycations the Windermere branch will bounce back fast than some commuter routes once we are out of the current Omicron wave. So the medium term ought to be electric and clockface timings.

Loadings don't really justify half hourly, but what would be useful is a second branch platform at Oxenholme, as the inability to pass branch services there is one thing that causes the slightly bitty timetable.

 

[Starmill]

That then also enables a regular path from Oxenholme to Manchester.

Are you sure? The slot between Manchester Airport and Preston (which is fixed and can't be changed) doesn't always line up with one between Preston and Oxenholme.

By way of some context, I'm currently on the 1301 from Manchester Piccadilly which is for Barrow-in-Furness. As with (almost) all of these services it's a three car 195, but it's so busy that quite a few people were left behind at Manchester Oxford Road. This is probably because the 1326 from Manchester Piccadilly, which was for Glasgow Central, is cancelled. But still presumably in daodao's world, this entire train's worth of people would be excluded from rail and would be using the Motorways or the airlines. Of course, this train only probably has about 300 people on it, and among those left behind, not being able to physically fit their luggage in was probably more of a motivation for them than the crowd.

 

[MattRat]

So Manchester to Windermere would be two changes? What would be the benefits of any of this?

If long distance intercity markets between the some of the largest economic areas in the country such as Manchester and Edinburgh, which are strong commercial performers and have been for years, don't merit through services then almost no service in the country will. You may as well suggest withdrawal of trains between Bristol and Birmingham or Newcastle and Leeds.

Well we know how important the Government thinks Bristol to Birmingham is since early on it was decided not to be a part of HS2.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well we know how important the Government thinks Bristol to Birmingham is since early on it was decided not to be a part of HS2.....

That a given route doesn't justify high speed rail does not mean it is of no value as a classic InterCity route.

 

[MattRat]

That a given route doesn't justify high speed rail does not mean it is of no value as a classic InterCity route.

Slippery slope in my mind. Today, it's justifying no connection to HS2, tomorrow, it's justifying no intercity connection between the two.

 

[tbtc]

Is this really necccesary? We already have a 0422 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport for this purpose, arriving at Manchester Oxford Road at 0820. Its all of 8 minutes connection at Oxenholme into it.

The 0642 from Windermere would have to leave earlier to get to Preston without being caught up by the service from Glasgow, and a second unit would have to come up to the branch to work the next Windermere service. It would be a nightmare

I was thinking that (in the absence of suitable bi-mode trains), if there's a balance to be struck between "running pure DMUs all the way from Oxenholme to Manchester Airport" and "cutting all direct trains from Barrow/Windermere to Manchester" then focussing DMUs on two return trains per day from these Cumbrian towns to Manchester would work for both the "typical business day" and also "typical leisure trip", so if we focussed resources on these two return journeys a day then we'd tick the "business" and "tourist" boxes without needing to keep running DMUs through Castlefield all day long - obviously there are other trains to try to squeeze around but a couple of services a day would satisfy "most" Barrow/Windermere journeys without having to waste DMUs by sending them all that way under the wires every hour of the day

Well we know how important the Government thinks Bristol to Birmingham is since early on it was decided not to be a part of HS2.....

Lots of pairs of cities aren't part of HS2 though - do you think that the Government thinks that they aren't important too?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slippery slope in my mind. Today, it's justifying no connection to HS2, tomorrow, it's justifying no intercity connection between the two.

I am sorry but that is not true.

 

[MattRat]

Lots of pairs of cities aren't part of HS2 though - do you think that the Government thinks that they aren't important too?

If you look at the IRP, only the connections to London matter, and spinning the train in Manchester doesn't counter that argument.

 

[Starmill]

I was thinking that (in the absence of suitable bi-mode trains), if there's a balance to be struck between "running pure DMUs all the way from Oxenholme to Manchester Airport" and "cutting all direct trains from Barrow/Windermere to Manchester" then focussing DMUs on two return trains per day from these Cumbrian towns to Manchester would work for both the "typical business day" and also "typical leisure trip", so if we focussed resources on these two return journeys a day then we'd tick the "business" and "tourist" boxes without needing to keep running DMUs through Castlefield all day long - obviously there are other trains to try to squeeze around but a couple of services a day would satisfy "most" Barrow/Windermere journeys without having to waste DMUs by sending them all that way under the wires every hour of the day

It's a reasonable suggestion but very difficult to action. There is a 0748 from Lancaster which arrives at Manchester Oxford Road at 0856 which could potentially have a portion from Windermere attached to it, but that would probably have to come instead of the connection into the 0422 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport because you'd need the first and second departures from Windermere to run earlier than they currently do. I'm unsure this would be viewed widely as an improvement.

 

[XAM2175]

Slippery slope in my mind. Today, it's justifying no connection to HS2, tomorrow, it's justifying no intercity connection between the two.

By this logic, the fact that I'm not at this exact moment buying groceries is an indication that tomorrow I won't need any food at all.

 

[Philip]

It's a reasonable suggestion but very difficult to action. There is a 0748 from Lancaster which arrives at Manchester Oxford Road at 0856 which could potentially have a portion from Windermere attached to it, but that would probably have to come instead of the connection into the 0422 Glasgow Central to Manchester Airport because you'd need the first and second departures from Windermere to run earlier than they currently do. I'm unsure this would be viewed widely as an improvement.

Wouldn't an earlier first train from Windermere be a good thing? An 8 minute connection at Oxenholme for the 04:22 from Glasgow is quite tight, especially with passengers having to cross to the other side of the station. Any delay leaving Windermere of more than a couple of minutes would leave passengers sweating and so in this respect an earlier arrival into Oxenholme and say a 20 minute wait for the 'Scottish-Mancunian' would be better.

 

[507020]

Utterly, utterly ridiculous. Why on earth would you break the direct connection between England's second/third city (depending who you ask) and Scotland's first and second, relegating it to taking a semifast regional service and a connection?

These services load very well (north of Preston far better than many Avanti services) and may even be profitable.

The only thing I would consider changing about them is that instead of running hourly 5 car trains it might be better to run two-hourly ten car trains splitting and joining at Carlisle or Carstairs, freeing up a two hourly path for something else e.g. better timed Windermeres.

When I have been on these TPE services I have had difficulty getting a seat when boarding at Preston and had to stand the whole way to Carlisle and Scotland, with people sitting on suitcases in aisles and vestibules. What they really should do is order twice as many 397s and run an hourly 5 car train from both Liverpool and Manchester to both Glasgow and Edinburgh and join them at Preston. It’s not like platform lengths on the WCML would be an issue. Likewise the Barrow and Windermere services at all times of day are always heavily loaded, but then so are the Southports and Kirkbys as far as Wigan.

Well we know how important the Government thinks Bristol to Birmingham is since early on it was decided not to be a part of HS2.....

The network of the Midland Railway with a trunk route St Pancras - Carlisle as well as branches from Derby to Manchester via Bakewell with the CLC lines to Warrington, Liverpool and Chester, Derby to Bristol and Bath via Birmingham and Hellifield to Lancaster and Morecambe, as well as others, LT&SR, M&SWJR, S&DR, S&CLER etc giving access to the coast, seems like the perfect one to replicate as a high speed network. There is of course now Thameslink linking it to the likes of Brighton.

 

[A0wen]

It’s a bit of a long journey for what the 769s are

Except Manchester - Windermere is ~ 2 hours, yet not so long ago as 319s those units were routinely doing Bedford - Brighton is ~ 2.5 hours........

 

[Starmill]

Wouldn't an earlier first train from Windermere be a good thing?

It certainly would. Unfortunately it would also require the driver and guard to book on earlier and the 0600 Lancaster to Windermere to depart much earlier.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Except Manchester - Windermere is ~ 2 hours, yet not so long ago as 319s those units were routinely doing Bedford - Brighton is ~ 2.5 hours........

And they did not take brand new trains with 2+2, tables, improved passenger information and armrests off of that service to get them there……..

 

[6Gman]

Since there is little prospect of either the Barrow or Windermere lines being electrified anytime soon, could it be a smart idea for Northern to consider either removing the service completely, or alter it so that it becomes a portion working between Preston and Lancaster; a 331 off one of the Manchester-Blackpool services?

Having a DMU running all way from Manchester Airport to Carnforth/Oxenholme under wires isn't particularly good, so this would remove this problem. Also it'll save a bit of money for Northern without impacting on travel convenience too much and it'll free up another path along the Castlefield line. Bolton and Chorley won't actually lose a service compared to now as it still currently runs via Wigan.

The Oxenholme-Windermere shuttle could be operated by a 769 or 195, likewise the Lancaster to Barrow shuttle. Ideally a half hourly Lancaster to Manchester frequency would be retained by using a 331 off the Blackpool service, detaching at Preston. But if Lancaster isn't suitable for turning back then you can probably get away with an hourly Lancaster to Manchester frequency (the TPE Scotland).

Perhaps TPE themselves could use an 802 diagram and remove a couple of Scotland services to instead provide two direct services per day between Manchester and Windermere, running in the existing Scotland paths.

Barrow is a seriously economically depressed area.

Cutting its direct link to Manchester would be a disaster in terms of "levelling up".

 

[Iskra]

Except Manchester - Windermere is ~ 2 hours, yet not so long ago as 319s those units were routinely doing Bedford - Brighton is ~ 2.5 hours........

But not connecting Manchester Airport with one of the UK's premier tourist destinations and a couple of large student cities, one of them which has a very well regarded Management School internationally, therefore requiring decent amounts of space for luggage.

The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. They load well and form an important part of the railway network, not just serving beautiful but economically- lagging Cumbria, but providing many other journey opportunities too. These are and always have been busy services. I can think of absolutely no justification for the curtailing of these services.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous.

I can think of absolutely no justification for the curtailing of these services.

Not the first time that the OP has proposed either (i) discontinuing some existing and reasonably well-patronised train service or (ii) re-instating some long-closed and highly-marginal backwater of a line.

Wouldn't like to suggest that these various speculative threads automatically makes the OP a forum WUM, but I am starting to wonder.