Rail strikes discussion

[yorkie]

I think you completely misinterpreted my post.

What were you saying then? Are you suggesting those things could happen? Clearly there is no prospect of this.

Confidential Reporting of Safety? That’s why it’s confidential? I wouldn’t be telling you as that’s confidential. Besides I’ve reported my issues to the signal box……..

You were the one who brought the subject up; I am not asking you to divulge any confidential information.

Can you clarify how it's linked to the strikes? Are you saying that reports are not taken seriously or unsafe practices are occurring?

...What's so far off the mark? That people won't in reality be calling people scabs or parasites in the workplace, because of the inevitable consequences of doing so, so people here needn't get too outraged about it? In reality the extent of any issues will largely be the same as any other person in any workplace exhibiting any behaviour that might make them less popular.

Are you saying the following post is inaccurate, or that it does happen but it's a minority who engage in this?

The language I’ve heard in my mess room? Blimey. It goes way beyond “scab”. You simply don’t strikebreak on the railway if you know what’s good for you....

I don't see how both of these statements can be true, so which is it?


@dctraindriver would you agree that calling people scabs, and even going way beyond this, is toxic, or do you think that's not toxic in your opinion?

 

[dctraindriver]

Yep it is. I don’t generally bother because I’m lazy.

I will be reporting every leaf out of place next week.

Please do. If you feel you can’t please report it confidentiality to CIRAS as kindly pointed out by the forum owner.

 

[43066]

Please do. If you feel you can’t please report it confidentiality to CIRAS as kindly pointed out by the forum owner.

To whom?!

I only generally speak to the Bobby when I’m working…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The language I’ve heard in my mess room? Blimey. It goes way beyond “scab”. You simply don’t strikebreak on the railway if you know what’s good for you.

Best story I’ve heard was someone being denied a job in 2005 because the hiring manager recognised their name and remembered they’d “strike broken” in 1981. “Well, we don’t want people like that working here”.

So what you’re suggesting, basically, is that there’s a tendency by some staff in your depot to bully others that choose not to strike?

 

[43066]

I don't see how both of these statements can be true, so which is it?

It’s a simple equation. If you strike break on the railway, your colleagues will disown you.

So what you’re suggesting, basically, is that there’s a tendency by some staff in your depot to bully others that choose not to strike?

Not bully, just dislike.

It’s a long old furrow to plough when nobody wants to so much as speak to you. Times that by twenty years…

Hence why basically nobody does it…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s a simple equation. If you strike break on the railway, your colleagues will disown you.



Not bully, just dislike.

It’s a long old furrow to plough when nobody wants to so much as speak to you.

Times that by twenty years…

Again, I fail to see how petty and unprofessional behaviour like that can even exist among fully grown adults in a skilled job. It’d be borderline funny if it wasn’t so concerning and embarrassing.

 

[43066]

Again, I fail to see how petty and unprofessional behaviour like that can even exist among fully grown adults in a skilled job. It’d be borderline funny if it wasn’t so concerning and embarrassing.

Nobody said it’s funny or amusing, as far as I’ve seen? Doesn’t change the reality of the scenario.

Trust me, people in this industry can be extremely petty .

 

[dctraindriver]

What were you saying then? Are you suggesting those things could happen? Clearly there is no prospect of this.


You were the one who brought the subject up; I am not asking you to divulge any confidential information.

Can you clarify how it's linked to the strikes? Are you saying that reports are not taken seriously or unsafe practices are occurring?


Are you saying the following post is inaccurate, or that it does happen but it's a minority who engage in this?

I don't see how both of these statements can be true, so which is it?


@dctraindriver would you agree that calling people scabs, and even going way beyond this, is toxic, or do you think that's not toxic in your opinion?

What were you saying then? Are you suggesting those things could happen? Clearly there is no prospect of this.


You were the one who brought the subject up; I am not asking you to divulge any confidential information.

Can you clarify how it's linked to the strikes? Are you saying that reports are not taken seriously or unsafe practices are occurring?

I think you brought the subject up about strikes harming the railway. I gave an opinion on it based on things I’m starting to witness and experiences from my prior career that allow me to form an opinion based on going through something similar.

You jumped on something I replied to and I think took umbrage to it. You were asking me if I reported anything to CIRAS. Thats confidential. I wouldn’t divulge if I had or had not. Am I saying reports aren’t taken seriously? I drive the things, you’ll have to dig elsewhere for that info. I report any issues I see fit. I very rarely hear back from feedback which I think is wrong; and yes I’ve raised that. I’m proud of what I do and do it to the best of my ability as are the majority of my colleagues.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nobody said it’s funny or amusing, as far as I’ve seen? Doesn’t change the reality of the scenario.

Trust me, people in this industry can be extremely petty .

It most certainly isn’t funny; it was more a phrase to remark on how ridiculous it is that people can be so petty.

Edit: For those who kindly offered suggestions for the issue of attending the lecture next week, Huw Edwards and the University have (sensibly) decided to postpone it by several weeks due to the strike. Good job the hotel is refundable

 

[43066]

It most certainly isn’t funny; it was more a phrase to remark on how ridiculous it is that people can be so petty.

It isn’t petty, it’s visceral.

Go into work, your colleagues hate your guts. * 30 years.

It’s a long old life isn’t it…

 

[dctraindriver]

It most certainly isn’t funny; it was more a phrase to remark on how ridiculous it is that people can be so petty.

The media isn’t at all bitchy or bullying. Please don’t say it is, i know it is.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The media isn’t at all bitchy or bullying. Please don’t say it is, i know it is.

And what relevance is that? I’m confused why you would respond to my claims (that rail staff picking on colleagues who try to strike is petty bullying) by talking about the media.

 

[43066]

And what relevance is that? I’m confused why you would respond to my claims that rail staff picking on colleagues who try to strike are petty/bullying by talking about the media.

Nobody is actually saying they’re doing that.

 

[STKKK46]

So what you’re suggesting, basically, is that there’s a tendency by some staff in your depot to bully others that choose not to strike?

One would imagine you’re unlikely to get staff approaching strikebreakers shouting ‘scab’ aggressively and repeatedly in their face. If reported it wouldn’t go down well with the company. But if reported, the name of the ‘scab’ would then be brandished around more.

I think the unwritten rules are simple. Stand together. Or stand separate and and don’t expect to find anyone willing to do you a favour when you need it.

I can see why you think it may seem petty, however if you were in the job, you would understand.

 

[jagardner1984]

It is hard to get a measure of true public opinion since polling etc is always presented by those with their own agenda to push (eg Newspapers).

But even if you accept there is some public ‘weariness’ to the strikes, based on their impact, I would say amongst working people there is a degree of fascination and even mild envy as to a workforce so well organised as to achieve far better Pay and T&C than most other sectors of the economy. The contrast for example, between sectors of air travel which lost vast swathes of staff to supermarkets etc during COVID and have not managed to get them back due to poor pay and conditions, and strong competition for most jobs advertised in rail, is really stark.

 

[Dave91131]

It isn’t petty, it’s visceral.

Go into work, your colleagues hate your guts. * 30 years.

It’s a long old life isn’t it…

I guess it depends if one gives two hoots about the opinions others have of them.

Would bother some people a lot, others not at all.

 

[Bantamzen]

To be fair, if I were a union member and that union had voted for industrial action, it would be a bit rich of me to ask colleagues who had respected that vote to represent me, when I'd chosen not to abide by that collective choice.

At that point, if I opposed the planned action so strongly that I would be willing to work normally, I would be considering whether I could remain a union member at all. Like any club, it's unreasonable to expect to get the benefits of membership without abiding by the rules.

I also recognise that, within much of the rail industry, that is a tough choice due to the unions' representative role.

A union isn't a club. A representative of a union is expected to, and should always represent their members. They should not be picking & choosing who they do represent based on if the members chose to strike or not. And if they do, quite frankly they should resign as reps because they are clearly not suitable for the role.

I thought the government had indicated that the public service “pay cap” was now a thing of the past.

Do you have a source for this? Because as someone who has worked for the public sector for 35 years, I don't recall this ever being the case.

There are two available solutions: industrial action, or capitulation. Which do you suggest?

Wrong. Wrong. And Thrice Wrong. Please, don't ever consider being a trade union representative, because this is exactly how not to approach a negotiation.

 

[Falcon1200]

What I would politely suggest is that concerns over the cost of living and what 9/10% wage rises would do are also considered on balance with how wages under inflation can cause poverty and indeed a "cost of living crisis"

Would a 10% pay rise, on the railway or anywhere else, not automatically contribute to a further cost of living increase, over and above what has already occurred, because the money has to come from somewhere ? Whether that be the customer/passenger or taxpayer ?

NB for the record I fully agree that rail staff should get an increase, that NR's offer to the RMT is insufficient, that unions are essential, staff should belong to them, they have every right to strike when voted for, and that staff should respect the decision to strike.

Confidential Reporting of Safety? That’s why it’s confidential? I wouldn’t be telling you as that’s confidential. Besides I’ve reported my issues to the signal box……..

Specific safety-related faults such as suspected track defects, signals obscured etc should of course be reported ASAP to the Signaller. CIRAS is perhaps a more appropriate place to report more general concerns regarding overall standards.

 

[lammergeier]

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment about those who choose to work when their colleagues are striking, I have to point out a case a couple of years ago where bullying on a whatsapp group resulted in five members of staff at one depot being sacked (and rightly so.) It wasn't over strike breaking, but there is an extremely fine line between disagreeing with someone's actions and slipping into gross misconduct territory. This isn't 1981 anymore.

 

[Bantamzen]

Whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment about those who choose to work when their colleagues are striking, I have to point out a case a couple of years ago where bullying on a whatsapp group resulted in five members of staff at one depot being sacked (and rightly so.) It wasn't over strike breaking, but there is an extremely fine line between disagreeing with someone's actions and slipping into gross misconduct territory. This isn't 1981 anymore.

Indeed, there do seem to be some rail workers who think that they are still living in the past. They need to come to terms with the fact that harassment either direct or indirect in the workplace is no longer acceptable. And more importantly it can as you say lead to serious consequences.

 

[ComUtoR]

Again, I fail to see how petty and unprofessional behaviour like that can even exist among fully grown adults in a skilled job. It’d be borderline funny if it wasn’t so concerning and embarrassing.

The problem is that the unprofessional behaviour is often the opposite.

If a member of platform staff gives me a bat on the red. I should immediately report this. That is the correct professional response. In reality, I tend to give the staff member a quick *ahem* and point to the signal. No harm, no foul, it's an easy mistake.

If it's someone you may dislike for whatever reason. You do the professional thing, and report them.

One of the reasons why "work to rule" can be so effective is that we let things slide on many occasions and generally go above and beyond.

We work in an industry where you can literally refuse 1 minute over your time. The professional decision is to say no.

There are certain resource managers who I never do anything for but some of the others I'll go out my way to help.

It would be difficult to prove bullying because sometimes you would be reporting people for doing their job.

 

[nanstallon]

The language I’ve heard in my mess room? Blimey. It goes way beyond “scab”. You simply don’t strikebreak on the railway if you know what’s good for you.

Best story I’ve heard was someone being denied a job in 2005 because the hiring manager recognised their name and remembered they’d “strike broken” in 1981. “Well, we don’t want people like that working here”.

Next week? They need to not put one foot wrong. Give me two against a red? Call to control - this train isn’t turning a wheel until you supply me with a competent guard, or I take it ECS.

ECS all the way back to London? That’s fine. Sorry Mr. contingent guard #inserts smirk# you’ll have to get the hell off my train and kick everyone onto the platform and stand with them as I depart in splendid isolation.

It’s only 100 miles or so….

.



Hi mr signaller. Foliage has obscured such and such a signal. Sorry about that. Will every train need to be cautioned? Erm, yeah.

Easy enough to utterly banjax the job, just for the sheer hell of it. Not that I condone such actions…

And Jo Public can get stuffed. It is this attitude towards the paying passenger that gives the railways a bad name.

 

[dk1]

And Jo Public can get stuffed. It is this attitude towards the paying passenger that gives the railways a bad name.

We've always had a bad name

 

[Bald Rick]

Best story I’ve heard was someone being denied a job in 2005 because the hiring manager recognised their name and remembered they’d “strike broken” in 1981. “Well, we don’t want people like that working here”.

that, of course, is illegal.

 

[2021_Signaller]

In all fairness, the sheer amount of propaganda that is being put out by NR to the workforce and the government and some media to the public is getting people's backs up that are going on strike for legitimate, serious reasons, legally and democratically. If the people suggesting that actions come with consequences and that those going on strike are fair game for this criticism; then the same is true for people that are working or considering working during the strike. These people will know, even without telling them, that their colleagues will be disgusted with them. Their actions have consequences too. Seems fair to me.

 

[ar10642]

It isn’t petty, it’s visceral.

Go into work, your colleagues hate your guts. * 30 years.

It’s a long old life isn’t it…

It's just more and more reasons to never join this frankly ridiculous industry. I keep getting told this sort of stuff doesn't happen and it's a minority blah blah, but it's a recurring theme on this thread. Absolute joke that grown adults supposedly concerned about safety behave like this and the actual purpose of carrying passengers is not even a consideration when threatening to go ECS because of some problem people have invented that they were fine with the day before.

 

[ComUtoR]

Would a 10% pay rise, on the railway or anywhere else, not automatically contribute to a further cost of living increase, over and above what has already occurred, because the money has to come from somewhere ? Whether that be the customer/passenger or taxpayer ?

I'm not an economist. However, there are two sides (probably more) to consider with wage rises. You have the school of thought where wages should go up with inflation "cost of living" this is a good thing and should be supported. This is what keeps life affordable. If prices go up but wages stagnate, you start to create poverty and increase debt.

If everyone's wages outpace inflation then things start to devalue and you get supply issues. Wouldn't it be great if everyone could afford two cars in every garage and three eyes on every fish ? Inflation would happen and would be welcomed as it would help control the economy.

Sadly, everyone wages do not rise. The rich get richer and.. well, we know the rest.

Pensions and benefits tend to rise with inflation. Again, it keeps those in need inline with the cost of living.

This entire conversation would not be happening if inflation was 2% it's because Inflation is spiking and we are post pandemic. Cost of living rises have always been acceptable.

A 10% rise, for one industry, with the tiniest fraction of the population, is barely going to touch the sides.

 

[2021_Signaller]

I actually think the RMT have done everything right. They've set out their case reasonably - that's the only reason it won overwhelming support from its members, democratically and legally. It has also been proportionate in the action it has set. It has done the media rounds, stated that members are taking strike action and given their collective position. However, the other side has chosen not to seriously engage and are being disingenuous and underhanded in offering people extra benefits and money to work strike days. This is not only unreasonable, but you should all be well aware of what happens next... If the government is acting in an underhanded and unreasonable way, this will only force the RMT to do the same.

We will be getting strike action next week. If we get into the realms of action short of strike action - this won't be better I can assure you and it will be the government that has forced it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Absolute joke that grown adults supposedly concerned about safety behave like this and the actual purpose of carrying passengers is not even a consideration when threatening to go ECS

The concern is having an incompetent member of staff on the train will put passengers at risk. Safer to not run the service. Especially if you got two on a red. That could cause a SPAD.

Unless you want Guards who can't dispatch correctly ?

 

[dk1]

The concern is having an incompetent member of staff on the train will put passengers at risk. Safer to not run the service. Especially if you got two on a red. That could cause a SPAD.

Unless you want Guards who can't dispatch correctly ?

DRA DRA DRA lol