Most boring preserved railway?

[D6130]

East Lancs Railway is on my list to do this year if I ever get there, though I wish one didn't have a lengthy tram trip between Manchester's stations and the Bury/Bolton station. From YouTube, it looks an enjoyable trip through pleasant towns.

IMHO, the scenery on the ELR is not at all unpleasant - with good river and moorland views - and the friendly small towns of Ramsbottom and Rawtenstall have improved immeasurably over the past twenty years or so, with numerous good and reasonably-priced eating and drinking options, including several good real ale pubs - for those that like such things - including the two on Bury and Rawtenstall stations which are valuable fund-raisers for the railway. Also, the ELR doesn't seem to be afflicted by claustrophobic lineside vegetation as much as some other preserved lines, which is good for viewing the scenery. For those who find the tram ride from Manchester boring - and I personally find it very interesting, from the point-of-view of its 'mainline' railway heritage, if you can get a front seat - there is alternative access by bus from Rochdale station to Heywood - which takes about 15 minutes, followed by a ten minute walk.

Taken this long to mention…Peak Rail. It just seemed to be a slow (even by Pres standards!) run with not a lot to see out of the window.

Yes, it's a bit of a stagger with its 15 mph speed limit....but I shouldn't complain because the last time I was there - about five or six years ago - they gave me and a friend a cab ride in 31 270. The nearby Ecclesbourne Valley Railway - although not operating any steam locos - is more interesting IMO....especially at the Wirksworth end, with the white knuckle railcar ride up the steep incline to the quarry and back down again.

I think everyone has their own criteria what makes an interesting or boring railway there is no one size fits all.

I agree absolutely!

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I'd say the Mid-Hants is a bit lacking scenery-wise, but only because I travel between Alton to Winchester every weekday (as well as Saturdays when City are at home or running a coach) so I've seen it all before. That, however, is offset by the gala planners' mantra of "What will get the most red pens out?"

 

[Galvanize]

The nearby Ecclesbourne Valley Railway - although not operating any steam locos - is more interesting IMO....especially at the Wirksworth end, with the white knuckle railcar ride up the steep incline to the quarry and back down again.

Definitely enjoy visiting the EVR for its stock, scenery and overall friendliness!

 

[BrianW]

I have found this thread both interesting and informative- thank you to all who have contributed, however 'opinionated' We are truly blessed with the range of provision.

Trees- heh ... they will keep growing- a lot of thankless work there to open up and maintain views, let alone safety. Thank you all.

 

[SeanG]

The North Tyneside Steam Railway is rather boring scenically, and simply follows an adjacent cycle way. However there is a small but rather interesting museum with some different exhibits to the norm.

 

[John Luxton]

You're likely in the minority. I doubt many people daytrip from Liverpool or Manchester specifically to ride the FfR or WHR(C) - it's more of a family holiday activity, hence the railtour style marketing. If you want a day trip for a steam train ride nearer Manchester there are other options much closer by e.g. the East Lancs.

I doubt I am in the minority - Merseyside / Manchester is quite close it is only around 2 hours away. Many FWHR visitors are day trippers. You can't have a scenic narrow gauge experience at the ELR!

 

[bengley]

I think they're all boring. The 25mph speed limit (which tends to be rigorously enforced these days) is too slow to get any real enjoyment out of the loco haulage.

Main Line pres is much better

 

[John Luxton]

The raison d'etre for the railway is steam train trips through pleasant scenery. Originally it was freight from those slate mines, but it's not now.

Blaenau is a dump (a fairly striking one, admittedly, due to the slag heaps) with almost no redeeming features in and of itself. It's just a place people live for cheap housing just outside the National Park.

I think you would find UNESCO would disagree with you. BF is one of the key locations in the recently designated slate heritage landscape

BF is not a dump and they are not "slag heaps"!

Blaenau omitted from the National Park when that was designated but I have read on several occasions in recent years that that omission is now regretted and some have suggested it should now be included given the UNESCO designation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you would find UNESCO would disagree with you. BF is one of the key locations in the recently designated slate heritage landscape

That it's historically important does not make it a nice or pleasant place. Preston Bus Station is historically important but is an ugly 1960s carbuncle, for example, and in the wrong location to boot.

BF is not a dump and they are not "slag heaps"!

They're slate, admittedly, but it is a dump. It's run-down, small-town Wales, poor and with limited prospects, "10 pints and a fight on a Saturday night" territory, just like the grim, half-boarded-up ex-mining towns that dot about the Valleys but without Cardiff's strong economy to at least get some locals into decent work. The only things it has going for it are the termini of the FfR and Conwy Valley Line and the Co-op which comes in handy if having to spend any significant amount of time there. Grey and depressing.

Were it not for the railways nobody would ever go there.

 

[coradiafan2000]

I think they're all boring. The 25mph speed limit (which tends to be rigorously enforced these days) is too slow to get any real enjoyment out of the loco haulage.

Main Line pres is much better

Obviously not a substantial increase, but I'm pretty sure on my most recent visit to the Gloucestershire and Warwickshire 35006 touched 30mph. Not very fast but enough for me to take notice.

I do partially agree with you. When it comes to the traction itself I much prefer seeing it on the mainline, especially in the case of express locos like 35006 which are known for reaching speeds of around 100mph in their heyday. However I think we should be grateful that ALL heritage railways exist. Even the ones that are in the middle of nowhere or with boring scenery. They give places for this vintage traction to operate. Much better than them rotting in a shed somewhere. I'd much rather they exist than not.

 

[John Luxton]

They're slate, admittedly, but it is a dump. It's run-down, small-town Wales, poor and with limited prospects, "10 pints and a fight on a Saturday night" territory, just like the grim, half-boarded-up ex-mining towns that dot about the Valleys but without Cardiff's strong economy to at least get some locals into decent work. The only things it has going for it are the termini of the FfR and Conwy Valley Line and the Co-op which comes in handy if having to spend any significant amount of time there. Grey and depressing.

Were it not for the railways nobody would ever go there.

I understand what you say about BF but I don't think it is quite that grim. Property prices are on the low side and there may be reasons for it.

It does support an artisan bakery which doesn't exactly fall into the budget category and the produce some interesting Kurdish (yes Kurdish) pasties so I don't think every body is on their uppers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does support an artisan bakery which doesn't exactly fall into the budget category and the produce some interesting Kurdish (yes Kurdish) pasties so I don't think every body is on their uppers!

That must be fairly new. I struggled to find a chippy last time I was there, though I believe there is one. There also always used to be a cafe on the road just above the station, I guess handy if passing through as a tourist.

I wonder if Airbnb hosts are buying up some of the houses and thus creating it a bit of a tourist industry it'd not really have had before? It's also fairly handy for Zip World.

 

[bramling]

I understand what you say about BF but I don't think it is quite that grim. Property prices are on the low side and there may be reasons for it.

It does support an artisan bakery which doesn't exactly fall into the budget category and the produce some interesting Kurdish (yes Kurdish) pasties so I don't think every body is on their uppers!

Judging by some of the reviews, many people do seem to find themselves disappointed upon arrival at BF. I wouldn’t describe it as a dump, but equally it’s certainly going to be of niche interest to many. Tanybwlch is likely to be of more interest to many, and of course Tanygrisiau with the chance to have a pleasant walk alongside the reservoir.

 

[John Luxton]

That must be fairly new. I struggled to find a chippy last time I was there, though I believe there is one. There also always used to be a cafe on the road just above the station, I guess handy if passing through as a tourist.

Its the "Model Bakery" been there well over 10 years it is near the CoOp diagonally across the road on the left. The owner who trained as a rocket engineer apparently appeared on a bakery programme with his pasties well over a decade ago.

I am a traditional Cornish Pasty person and seldom find other pasties any good - but I can highly recommend the Kurdish ones - a completely different experience. The bread is good too.

Apparently quite a lot of FR visitors, staff and volunteers go to the Model Bakery there.

I was last in there in May when I travelled down the Conwy Valley line the owner is also lamenting the lack of proper FR services as passengers were a good source of custom. So there is at least one local business not happy with the current "boring" FR service.

 

[paul1609]

Yes but it never used to be that way until certain events two years ago. Yes by all means run experiences but I am talking a basic service on both lines during the operating season which can be sold as prebooked experiences for those that want but are there for other people to use. When the railway reached Blaenau much was made of "The Ffestiniog Link" between the Conwy Valley and Cambrian Lines. For those choosing not to use cars that is a very useful transport function in its own right. If people are to be encouraged to leave their cars at home such links should be encouraged.

The WHR/ Ffestiniog is by far the largest heritage railway by turnover and its General Manager is one of the top advocates of the experience business models. His presentation to the HRA says that profitability of the railway had been in decline since at least 2015 and that a change of business model was inevitable. Its just that the pandemic has increased the urgency. The research is impressive and its hard to present an argument against its logic. Although it will not suit all railways. I saw the presentation beforethe invasion of Ukraine and its effect on inflation, I suspect the need for change is even more urgent now and we are going to see some heritage railways returning very large losses this year. I'm sure the Ffestiniog would like to run old school public transport style services but the question is who is going to pay for them. The costs are definately not covered by the Ffestiniogs share of a round Robin ticket or even a day return.

 

[alexl92]

The Derwent Valley light railway near York.

Yeah... long time since I've been but it's not long enough to spend any length of time there. Nor does it go anywhere.

I wouldn't suggest the Middleton railway to anyone who wishes to see the best of Leeds!

I haven't been for years, but I don't think people have high expectations of it, it's an unpretentious line that doesn't claim to be beautiful and has its niche focusing on industrial loco's and locals who just want a steam train ride and for whom any steam train will do. For that reason, to me it's not a disappointment as it sets limited expectations that it does at least match.

The Middleton Railway has a lot on display that visitors can see, plus it's very clear what it is - a preserved section of an ex-colliery railway, using the original formation from pre-BR days, and has a museum at Moor Road plus at the far end is Middleton Park where you can literally walk up to (and stand in) some of the old colliery seams and bell pits. I think it's alright for a few hours for what it is.

As for my contribution to this thread...
It genuinely pains me to say this but I think at present, the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Steam Railway doesn't have a whole lot to offer for more than an hour or so. It's a 15 minute ride each way, which is picturesque but some of it doesn't have much of a view, very little at either end of the line other than a cafe and shop and Bolton Abbey villlage is a 33 minute walk from the station.

As I've said many times before, I love it as a railway, love their traction fleet, they're doing a brilliant job refurbishing their rolling stock and I have got some brilliant memories of visiting as a child, but it needs an Oxenhope-style exhibition shed, or a museum or something else at one end or the other... or they work with local attractions like the Priory and Billy Bobs Parlour to make themselves part of a multi-site day out... at least until they can extend a bit! And I sincerely hope they do manage to do something like that!

 

[John Luxton]

The WHR/ Ffestiniog is by far the largest heritage railway by turnover and its General Manager is one of the top advocates of the experience business models. His presentation to the HRA says that profitability of the railway had been in decline since at least 2015 and that a change of business model was inevitable. Its just that the pandemic has increased the urgency. The research is impressive and its hard to present an argument against its logic. Although it will not suit all railways. I saw the presentation beforethe invasion of Ukraine and its effect on inflation, I suspect the need for change is even more urgent now and we are going to see some heritage railways returning very large losses this year. I'm sure the Ffestiniog would like to run old school public transport style services but the question is who is going to pay for them. The costs are definately not covered by the Ffestiniogs share of a round Robin ticket or even a day return.

I have read all about it in the FR Magazine - but that does not mean I or other members agree. The GM did a great job getting the railway through recent events but it does need to be returning to normal otherwise it will just become a boring theme park.

I am not saying there is not a market for Experiences I think both can live side by side. There is obviously a market for shorter family trips to say Tanybwlch or even Minffordd. I understand in the past that shorter shuttles have run. The railway is big enough to offer both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The WHR/ Ffestiniog is by far the largest heritage railway by turnover and its General Manager is one of the top advocates of the experience business models. His presentation to the HRA says that profitability of the railway had been in decline since at least 2015 and that a change of business model was inevitable. Its just that the pandemic has increased the urgency. The research is impressive and its hard to present an argument against its logic. Although it will not suit all railways. I saw the presentation beforethe invasion of Ukraine and its effect on inflation, I suspect the need for change is even more urgent now and we are going to see some heritage railways returning very large losses this year. I'm sure the Ffestiniog would like to run old school public transport style services but the question is who is going to pay for them. The costs are definately not covered by the Ffestiniogs share of a round Robin ticket or even a day return.

The viability of the WHR (C) was always going to be limited - the "sweet spot" for "day out" railways is half an hour there, a cafe or similar and half an hour back. The Porthmadog-Beddgelert one is probably the ideal family day out in this sort of sense.

It would be sad but it wouldn't surprise me to see it close. Or perhaps in a sensible world it'd get a more Swiss like service - move the subsidy from the parallel Snowdon Sherpa bus routes onto it, and run a more frequent public service operation using battery EMUs.

 

[John Luxton]

The viability of the WHR (C) was always going to be limited - the "sweet spot" for "day out" railways is half an hour there, a cafe or similar and half an hour back. The Porthmadog-Beddgelert one is probably the ideal family day out in this sort of sense.

It would be sad but it wouldn't surprise me to see it close. Or perhaps in a sensible world it'd get a more Swiss like service - move the subsidy from the parallel Snowdon Sherpa bus routes onto it, and run a more frequent public service operation using battery EMUs.

Your second idea sounds a good one. I did see a concept a while ago for a FWHR railcar - looked quite good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your second idea sounds a good one. I did see a concept a while ago for a FWHR railcar - looked quite good.

The loading gauge is quite big on the WHR(C) (to fit those huge Garratts) so it wouldn't surprise me if a Swiss narrow gauge EMU would fit if you changed the bogies. Obviously it'd need battery power instead of the OHLE.

If you wanted to go modern I'm certain Stadler could do something, but there are probably far cheaper options.

 

[John Luxton]

The loading gauge is quite big on the WHR(C) (to fit those huge Garratts) so it wouldn't surprise me if a Swiss narrow gauge EMU would fit if you changed the bogies. Obviously it'd need battery power instead of the OHLE.

If you wanted to go modern I'm certain Stadler could do something, but there are probably far cheaper options.

Originally the line in the form of the Porthadog, Beddglert and South Snowdon was to have been overhead powered by Hydro power. I guess the original promoters were just 100 years too early - but they certainly had vision.

 

[paul1609]

The viability of the WHR (C) was always going to be limited - the "sweet spot" for "day out" railways is half an hour there, a cafe or similar and half an hour back. The Porthmadog-Beddgelert one is probably the ideal family day out in this sort of sense.

It would be sad but it wouldn't surprise me to see it close. Or perhaps in a sensible world it'd get a more Swiss like service - move the subsidy from the parallel Snowdon Sherpa bus routes onto it, and run a more frequent public service operation using battery EMUs.

I may be wrong but I believe that the bit of the combined Ffestiniog/WHR that's a basket case financially is Tany Bwlch to Blaenau Ffestiniog.?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I may be wrong but I believe that the bit of the combined Ffestiniog/WHR that's a basket case financially is Tany Bwlch to Blaenau Ffestiniog.?

Referring back to the above about Blaenau not exactly being a prime tourist destination does make that make some sense.

 

[43066]

The Paignton and Dartmouth isn’t a preserved railway however, it is run by paid staff not volunteers and the line was not shut by BR but transferred to a private operator who provides seasonal tourist trains. It’s just it uses heritage rolling stock.

As it was described to me by a forum member: “If Margaret Thatcher opened a steam railway, it would be just like this one.”

I thought that seemed pretty accurate given its “business like” approach!

 

[43301]

As for my contribution to this thread...
It genuinely pains me to say this but I think at present, the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Steam Railway doesn't have a whole lot to offer for more than an hour or so. It's a 15 minute ride each way, which is picturesque but some of it doesn't have much of a view, very little at either end of the line other than a cafe and shop and Bolton Abbey villlage is a 33 minute walk from the station.

As I've said many times before, I love it as a railway, love their traction fleet, they're doing a brilliant job refurbishing their rolling stock and I have got some brilliant memories of visiting as a child, but it needs an Oxenhope-style exhibition shed, or a museum or something else at one end or the other... or they work with local attractions like the Priory and Billy Bobs Parlour to make themselves part of a multi-site day out... at least until they can extend a bit! And I sincerely hope they do manage to do something like that!

Not sure where they could easily extend. Skipton would obviously be the ideal direction, but with the heavy use of the single-track line to Swinden quarry (and I don't think there's any signalling on the branch) this would be difficult and expensive.

Going the other way, the trackbed is mostly intact to the edge of Addingham (a bridge or two missing,and not sure of the condition of the viaduct) - but that wouldn't be very scenic, and a station on the edge of Addingham is as far as they could ever go - it would be impossible to get through Addingham and then on to Ilkley due to new building and the trackbed having largely been obliterated (cuttings filled in, etc) apart from a few short sections.

 

[xotGD]

The most boring day I have experienced on a preserved railway was on the Embsay & Bolton Abbey. The 37 was on load 2, barely getting out of notch 1 all day. What an absolute stagger.

In contrast, KWVR, ELR, GWR - the drivers let rip through the tunnels and up the hills. Full-on entertainment.

 

[trebor79]

The North Tyneside Steam Railway is rather boring scenically, and simply follows an adjacent cycle way. However there is a small but rather interesting museum with some different exhibits to the norm.

Haha, I wondered how long it would take! I volunteered there as a teenager, gosh 25 years ago now!
It was good fun, but as you say not very interesting scenery. Interest for me was added by the long history of the waggonway alignment it follows, including its use as the test track for the Metro - hence the "modern" shed building on Middle Engine Lane.
Although only a couple of miles long and nothing to write home about scenically, it's fairly steeply graded and that meant the industrial tank engines were worked pretty hard hauling 3 coaches up the hill, especially when there was an 03 dead in tow on the back. The railways was featured in an issue of Steam Railway in about 1997, and the cover photo was of the RSH 060 storming up the bank - gives a good idea of how the locos were worked hard (yours truly was firing on the day). I'll see if I can dig it out anywhere

I think they're all boring. The 25mph speed limit (which tends to be rigorously enforced these days) is too slow to get any real enjoyment out of the loco haulage.

Tend to agree, but the railways using smaller locos can put in some good performances - as above. Tanfield Railway also good in this regard, and interesting rolling stock there too.
Big express locos trundling olong a few miles of easy gradients are a bit meh.

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve not visited since 2012 (I think) when the EPB Preservation Group were still based there. I managed an MLV for haulage (on battery power obviously) which was great fun, the sound going through the tunnel and cutting was fantastic. It’s still my favourite ever trip on a preserved line.

Yes, I do think preserved railways are better with a tunnel.

 

[Llanigraham]

Were it not for the railways nobody would ever go there.

I do wonder how often you visit BF.
I know plenty of people who go to BF as there are several tourist attractions there now and find the place quite interesting.
And you description of many of the people who live there is well off the mark.

 

[bramling]

I do wonder how often you visit BF.
I know plenty of people who go to BF as there are several tourist attractions there now and find the place quite interesting.
And you description of many of the people who live there is well off the mark.

It’s all relative. But anyone going there and expecting a tourist honeypot is going to be disappointed, as many are when they step off the FR and walk out of the station.